Player Discussion Jesse Puljujärvi | His Mouth Contain His Tongue Only When He Eats Pizza

[Drivesaitl]

They aren't false claims, but I'll concede it since that's not the point I'm trying to make.


The second point segues pretty well into the point I am trying to make.

Everybody creates chances with McDavid, but Pulju is the only winger on the team that created chances even remotely to as close as Drai does with McDavid.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

I'm too lazy to link every player, so you can just swap Pulju to anyone in the drop down to see the numbers.

So my point is even though Pulju didn't personally collect points, it's factually incorrect that he didn't play well with McDavid since he was the closest thing to replacing Drai's effect on McDavid's line last season.

That being a reasonable end to this exchange. Like I said we all want Pulju to be able to deliver with McD. I put Reider with Drai and see what else happens in terms of thirds. Again I've maintained throughout for the team to have McD and Drai apart. Drai is the only one that can drive the play while away from McD at this point.

 

[McDNicks17]

I'm not saying Pulju is a bona fide rockstar or anything, but I think he's shown enough by eye and by the numbers for us to at least be optimistic about his future in the top 6.

I could understand the bust talk if he was putting up numbers like Caggiula did beside McDavid.

Pulju+McDavid: 74.8 CF/60, 40.9 SCF/60, 19.1 HDCF/60
Cagg+McDavid: 51.8 CF/60, 25.1 SCF/60, 10.8 HDCF/60

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm not saying Pulju is a bona fide rockstar or anything, but I think he's shown enough by eye and by the numbers for us to at least be optimistic about his future in the top 6.

I could understand the bust talk if he was putting up numbers like Caggiula did beside McDavid.

Pulju+McDavid: 74.8 CF/60, 40.9 SCF/60, 19.1 HDCF/60
Cagg+McDavid: 51.8 CF/60, 25.1 SCF/60, 10.8 HDCF/60

Yeah, you've never heard bust from me regarding this player to be clear. I get most frustrated at players deserving of attention that I perceive as not doing their utmost. That's what triggers me. if they are nothing players like Cagg I expect them to be nothing all day any day. With Pulju it should be different. I still expect the player to succeed, just that how good he gets and how soon is kind of up in the air still.

 

[GameChanger]

I'm not saying Pulju is a bona fide rockstar or anything, but I think he's shown enough by eye and by the numbers for us to at least be optimistic about his future in the top 6.

I could understand the bust talk if he was putting up numbers like Caggiula did beside McDavid.

Pulju+McDavid: 74.8 CF/60, 40.9 SCF/60, 19.1 HDCF/60
Cagg+McDavid: 51.8 CF/60, 25.1 SCF/60, 10.8 HDCF/60

It'd be interesting to know what those numbers would be without the nasty slump the Oilers and even McDavid had. Of course one can argue also Jesse could've done more at that time, but the whole team and even (obioviosly ill) McDavid had a terrible stretch of games.

 

[t0nedeff]

I haven’t called puljujavi a failure. He’s still very young. But he hasn’t been an NHL quality player in his career so far. If anything he’s gotten more time with the big club than he deserves, simply because he’s a top 5 pick. He shouldn’t have played a game in his rookie year and honestly probably should have been learning how to be a consistent player shift to shift (let alone game to game) in the minors for much more of this past season too.

Regarding Dubois vs pulju. It’s pretty simple. Dubois ran with the opportunity he got. Pulju squandered it.

As of this past season: One player is good. The other isn’t. Hopefully pulju can get there one day. Until he does, he’s not going to be playing on the top line on a consistent basis.

He’s gotten his chances in the top 6, and has played almost exclusively in the top 9. He will get those chances again next season too. But he needs to be a consistent player if he’s going to stick. It’s that simple.

Bringing up yakupov doesn’t exactly help your argument btw. Dude was a ****ing garbage player in this league. Poor development had nothing to do with it. Just literally the biggest bust of all time.

He ran with it? No, he was given a long look with quality teammates something Mclellan has never shown JP. Dubois draft +1 saw him do absolutely horrendously for a top 5 pick. The guy was barely a point per game in the Q everyone was calling him a bust in his prospect thread for that entire year. Throw him on a line where Panarin can do all the fancy shit and create space and the guy has a break out season and his junior shortcomings are completely forgotten.

JP isn't consistent? Sure he is he is consistently making the safe plays (dumping in instead of turning the puck over even though the dump in results in the same) but that is the type of shit people like Mclellan want and it completely stifles a players ability to be creative because any mistake could see him scratched or playing on the 4th line and even when he did succeed at being creative and it either ended in the back up the net or as a high scoring chance he wasn't rewarded for it stop acting like he has been given ample opportunity with players that match his abilities because he really hasn't.

Yakupov was what at 11 pts in 10 games in Mcdavids rookie year got hurt and never saw a top 6 center again. How is that not what is happening to JP? We're taking another high end pick pushing him into a 3rd liner role telling him to show us what you got and when they show progress and that they should get a long look up in the top 6 they don't get it but god forbid they make mistakes when the puck is on their stick because it'll only further dig their hole.

 

[CycloneSweep]

He ran with it? No, he was given a long look with quality teammates something Mclellan has never shown JP. Dubois draft +1 saw him do absolutely horrendously for a top 5 pick. The guy was barely a point per game in the Q everyone was calling him a bust in his prospect thread for that entire year. Throw him on a line where Panarin can do all the fancy **** and create space and the guy has a break out season and his junior shortcomings are completely forgotten.

JP isn't consistent? Sure he is he is consistently making the safe plays (dumping in instead of turning the puck over even though the dump in results in the same) but that is the type of **** people like Mclellan want and it completely stifles a players ability to be creative because any mistake could see him scratched or playing on the 4th line and even when he did succeed at being creative and it either ended in the back up the net or as a high scoring chance he wasn't rewarded for it stop acting like he has been given ample opportunity with players that match his abilities because he really hasn't.

Yakupov was what at 11 pts in 10 games in Mcdavids rookie year got hurt and never saw a top 6 center again. How is that not what is happening to JP? We're taking another high end pick pushing him into a 3rd liner role telling him to show us what you got and when they show progress and that they should get a long look up in the top 6 they don't get it but god forbid they make mistakes when the puck is on their stick because it'll only further dig their hole.

So Yakupov isn't in the NHL anymore because Oilers?

Or maybe the Oilers coaches saw what Colorado, St Louis and the rest of the league saw? A guy who can play good in a small stretch and then be useless for the rest.

But no Oilers just ruined him by not gifting him top 6 minutes. My word.

 

[Spawn]

The frustrating thing about the JP scenario is that even if he has a breakout year we're kind of screwed. Blowing that first year of his contract on ~35 odd games or however many it was was just so shortsighted.

Can't believe we did the same thing with him as we did with Draisaitl.

 

[dustrock]

Jets long played Scheifele. Granted Puljujarvi didn't have the same development time as Scheifele but I remember people ragging on the Jets for the pick & now of course they look like geniuses.

Puljujarvi could be one of those players who suddenly figure it out & score 35 goals. It's all personality with him I think. He has the physical tools no doubt.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

What Pulju needs is a coach who gives him freedom. I remember after winning U20 he was asked about Jukka Jalonen and what makes him so good as a coach. He said hes great because he lets the players play their game. This kid needs a long leash, not a short one. After it was clear that the last season was lost, they should have given him a bigger one role and takem the reigns off of him. He has talked about it before, how important it is to feel like the coach trusts you. Let him fail and let him slump and figure out those slumps.

 

[Gordian Knot]

The frustrating thing about the JP scenario is that even if he has a breakout year we're kind of screwed. Blowing that first year of his contract on ~35 odd games or however many it was was just so shortsighted.

Can't believe we did the same thing with him as we did with Draisaitl.

Yes, but that’s by any means is not player’s fault. If management thinks it is good thing to do, they’re the ones to blame when things go south. All 18 yo kids want to play NHL if you ask them.

 

[Spawn]

Yes, but that’s by any means is not player’s fault. If management thinks it is good thing to do, they’re the ones to blame when things go south. All 18 yo kids want to play NHL if you ask them.

Yeah of course. 100% on the organization.

 

[nabob]

I'm not saying Pulju is a bona fide rockstar or anything, but I think he's shown enough by eye and by the numbers for us to at least be optimistic about his future in the top 6.

I could understand the bust talk if he was putting up numbers like Caggiula did beside McDavid.

Pulju+McDavid: 74.8 CF/60, 40.9 SCF/60, 19.1 HDCF/60
Cagg+McDavid: 51.8 CF/60, 25.1 SCF/60, 10.8 HDCF/60

I don’t expect anyone crapping on Puljujarvi to actually acknowledge stats that prove he played well in a top six role. But thanks for digging some up.

 

[nabob]

The frustrating thing about the JP scenario is that even if he has a breakout year we're kind of screwed. Blowing that first year of his contract on ~35 odd games or however many it was was just so shortsighted.

Can't believe we did the same thing with him as we did with Draisaitl.

Was a different situation, Drai could have been sent to the WHL Puljujarvi was burning a year regardless once it was decided he wasn’t going back to Europe. Going back to Europe really wouldn’t have helped him much at all.

If anything his ELC expiring after this season will give us space to bridge him and have him cheap for a few more years.

 

[nabob]

So Yakupov isn't in the NHL anymore because Oilers?

Or maybe the Oilers coaches saw what Colorado, St Louis and the rest of the league saw? A guy who can play good in a small stretch and then be useless for the rest.

But no Oilers just ruined him by not gifting him top 6 minutes. My word.

I think a reasonable thought is that if they could have had a better environment for him to transition from the OHL to the NHL that he very likely could have learned the game better and learned how to play NHL hockey properly. I think once he had made $5-10M there was little incentive for him to become a better player.
We saw how much help Roy was for him, imagine if we would have had one decent vet to guide him the rest of the years. It probably also didn’t help that the $6M club ran the show and it was well known the issues they had being team players.

 

[nabob]

No, there is a point. years ago here people were upside down thinking Omark was a star because he had a multiple pt game. I said was an aberration and even bet on it. Of course I was right. The Omark night was pretty out of the blue and not representative of the player, who was frankly an imposter as an NHL player. Now I'm saying none of that regarding Pulju, but if a player puts up a 3 pt night on a season where they end with 20pts the one result is probably not at all representative of the overall play.

That said of course I want the best for Pulju and I would want him to put up 20 boxcars of say 20G 20A. That would be nice and the team certainly requires it. Somebody has to put up the Maroon type production, forget about Hall or Eberle right now.

Maroon got those type of numbers being stapled in the top 6 and playing a lot on the PP. take Puljujarvi’s numbers for top 6 minutes and pro rate them and he does easily hit those totals. You just continue to refuse to acknowledge that he put up good numbers while playing in a role to succeed.

 

[Spawn]

Was a different situation, Drai could have been sent to the WHL Puljujarvi was burning a year regardless once it was decided he wasn’t going back to Europe. Going back to Europe really wouldn’t have helped him much at all.

If anything his ELC expiring after this season will give us space to bridge him and have him cheap for a few more years.

Nah, he could have played all of his rookie season in the AHL and wouldn’t have burned a year on his ELC because he was 18. Same thing happened with rantanen in Colorado who is on the last year of his ELC now despite this being his 4th year with the Colorado organization. 15/16 he played 9 games with the avalanche and the rest of the season in the minors.

In fact, Pulju could have spent the past 2 seasons in the AHL and so long as he had played 9 or fewer games in the NHL in each season this upcoming season would count as the first year of his ELC.

 

[frag2]

Maroon got those type of numbers being stapled in the top 6 and playing a lot on the PP. take Puljujarvi’s numbers for top 6 minutes and pro rate them and he does easily hit those totals. You just continue to refuse to acknowledge that he put up good numbers while playing in a role to succeed.

The biggest difference besides talent between those 2 is Maroon knew his role. Get in front of net, crash, create space. It’s really defined.

I think neither JP nor Mclellan really know what JP is at the moment.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Maroon got those type of numbers being stapled in the top 6 and playing a lot on the PP. take Puljujarvi’s numbers for top 6 minutes and pro rate them and he does easily hit those totals. You just continue to refuse to acknowledge that he put up good numbers while playing in a role to succeed.

Pulju "easily hits those numbers" lol. Maroon scored 52 goals here. in one season he scored 24 EV goals. Despite your false attribution of PP. Maroon barely ever scored on the PP. Vast majority of his goals were EV.

I don’t expect anyone crapping on Puljujarvi to actually acknowledge stats that prove he played well in a top six role. But thanks for digging some up.

You don't even know what those metrics are or what they mean.

But again whats more important. Unsubstantiated random metrics or actual production results? I'll wait for the answer..

 

[PulYou]

But again whats more important. Unsubstantiated random metrics or actual production results? I'll wait for the answer..

You know it's not black and white. You do have different stats for a reason - to understand better the game and to evaluate the player...

 

[McDNicks17]

But again whats more important. Unsubstantiated random metrics or actual production results? I'll wait for the answer..

There's two pretty good examples of each end of the spectrum on this team.

You've got McDavid+Pulju with dominant chance generation and possession numbers, but lower actual production due to a low SH% and then you've got McDavid+RNH who had average chance generation and negative possession metrics, but boatloads of actual production because nearly 20% of all Oilers shots that were taken while they were on the ice were goals.

Obviously the actual production is nice, but I'd feel safer predicting future success with a solid foundation of possession and chance metrics.

 

[Drivesaitl]

There's two pretty good examples of each end of the spectrum on this team.

You've got McDavid+Pulju with dominant chance generation and possession numbers, but lower actual production due to a low SH% and then you've got McDavid+RNH who had average chance generation and negative possession metrics, but boatloads of actual production because nearly 20% of all Oilers shots that were taken while they were on the ice were goals.

Obviously the actual production is nice, but I'd feel safer predicting future success with a solid foundation of possession and chance metrics.

The bolded I don't agree with in the slightest. Because as with many possession by proxy based metrics they draw little distinction between quality of chances generated. McD+Nuge were positively lethal. Nuge worked brilliantly with McD and I'm not even a Nuge fan saying that. They were consistently dangerous, generating serious chances and thus goals.

If you think last season that McD and Pulju were better than McD with Nuge then I'll just disagree. Nuge complimented much more due to him being comfortable with the puck and creating consistently to go along with McD. Pulju brought little of that comfort or confidence.

Not saying it won't happen.

Frankly I even liked Rattie more with McD last season. Short sample but I thought he played well off McD.

 

[Drivesaitl]

You know it's not black and white. You do have different stats for a reason - to understand better the game and to evaluate the player...

These metrics largely don't evaluate the individual player. They evaluate what occurs when the player is on the ice with OTHER players. So much of what gets cited with advanced metrics can be so distorted.

Possession metrics are a proxy for puck possession AND often used as a proxy for individual player merit. That offers so much distortion that I would defer to more tangible numbers.

For instance the citation that McD + Pulju were allegedly great (I don't really agree) but in anycase that would be due to McD, quite clearly, and not Pulju, albeit Pulju happened to be present in a beneficiary role.

 

[McDNicks17]

The bolded I don't agree with in the slightest. Because as with many possession by proxy based metrics they draw little distinction between quality of chances generated. McD+Nuge were positively lethal. Nuge worked brilliantly with McD and I'm not even a Nuge fan saying that. They were consistently dangerous, generating serious chances and thus goals.

If you think last season that McD and Pulju were better than McD with Nuge then I'll just disagree. Nuge complimented much more due to him being comfortable with the puck and creating consistently to go along with McD. Pulju brought little of that comfort or confidence.

Not saying it won't happen.

Frankly I even liked Rattie more with McD last season. Short sample but I thought he played well off McD.

I'm not saying they were better, but I have more faith in McDavid+Pulju scoring a couple more percent of their shots than McDavid+RNH continuing to score at double the rate that McDavid+Drai ever have when looking at shot metrics.

 

[PulYou]

For instance the citation that McD + Pulju were allegedly great (I don't really agree) but in anycase that would be due to McD, quite clearly, and not Pulju, albeit Pulju happened to be present in a beneficiary role.

They played together during last December and if You care to remember McDavid was ill. Still Edmonton was winning.

January was a different story. Pulju was suffled around the lines and Oilers were loosing. McDavid was healthy again. Oilers didn't make the playoffs.

That's the bigger (onesided) story. But You can keep Your narrative, because of Jesse's point...

 

[guymez]

The biggest difference besides talent between those 2 is Maroon knew his role. Get in front of net, crash, create space. It’s really defined.

I think neither JP nor Mclellan really know what JP is at the moment.

This is it exactly.
Lets allow Jesse to find his game before we give him a steady diet of #1 dmen on McDavids wing.
I have to LOL at people thinking that approach is hurting his development.
Its common sense.

Maybe start him with a little PP time if he earns it in camp.