Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Staaled Out Edition

[azcanuck]

The needle won't move as long as he goes into next season with the same role they've had earmarked for him since his rookie year.

He's a 3rd/4th line C...25-30pts.

Don't expect more if his role stays the same.

Also, the idea that he needs to force the coaching staff hand to "earn" more playing time is noble...but in reality, with a Danault making 5-5.5M and given his value on this team in the coaching staff's eyes, I don't expect there's anything Kotkaniemi will be able to do to "earn" more playing time.

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

 

[Redux91]

C'mon, kiddo. Clean slate for the playoffs. Just play and have some fun.

You mean play on his phone in the press box? Because I hope you know they are pushing him aside for the corpse of Eric Staal.

 

[Wats]

The role that's so crucial to being an extremely mediocre team?


That safety net is going to cost 5+M to keep beyond this year.

At that price, he's no longer a safety net.

I've been wanting a rebuild for a while and would be open to cutting ties if they also move out other players. I am assuming they won't.

Don't believe giving away Danault just because he's making ~5M is going to help make KK good. Personally think at 28 years old, Danault is a good player to have on the team for the next 4-5 years. He plays his role for most part and likely will have trade value even after 2-3 years after signing. Danault and Suzuki gives some stability down the middle. KK is the hope that it becomes more than just mediocre... So far he is showing he is not ready.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

Why do people on here constantly ignore the fact that Danault is one of the best defensive centers in the NHL and has excellent 5v5 production? If we're talking about 5v5 lines (we are) then Suzuki didn't hop over that bar either.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

No doubt. Not only Danault, but a 7th rounder in Evans and an apparently washed Staal. KK should be able to beat those guys out, but he couldn’t. Suzuki was able to, and he’s our 1C. If KK was able to just show he was worthy, he’d be getting similar opportunities to Suzuki, he just hasn’t been able to.

 

[417]

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

I think the coaching staff feels differently.

It's really not on Kotkaniemi, at least not exclusively.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

You wanna talk about a low bar? I present to you : Eric Staal

 

[Sorinth]

Every team has players that you need to beat out in order to gain more ice time. Notice the word gain.

Can you imagine if Danault is the guy in the way of you making yourself a name as a third pick overall in this league. It's a very low bar to hop over.

This is on KK. Nobody else.

Except there's simply no realistic way for Kotkaniemi to earn Danault's spot when the coach loves Danault and will play him even when he plays like absolute crap like what happened at the beginning of the year. The same was true with Desharnais and Therrien, it simply didn't matter who was better, Therrien simply believed in Desharnais and would play him through thick and thin. The same appears to be the case with Danault.


I would imagine if the guy in my way was a low bar and no matter how well I played or how badly the other guy played the other guy would still get played over me that I would not be engaged mentally at 100%. And yes I know that in the end that lack of engagement only hurts me but that's simply reality.

 

[417]

I've been wanting a rebuild for a while and would be open to cutting ties if they also move out other players. I am assuming they won't.

Don't believe giving away Danault just because he's making ~5M is going to help make KK good. Personally think at 28 years old, Danault is a good player to have on the team for the next 4-5 years. He plays his role for most part and likely will have trade value even after 2-3 years after signing. Danault and Suzuki gives some stability down the middle. KK is the hope that it becomes more than just mediocre... So far he is showing he is not ready.

For me it's not a question of giving him up...unfortunately, in today's NHL, you can't keep everyone.

There's a price point for Danault that the team should be willing to meet but I suspect they'll have to exceed that to keep him and in doing so, as i've said several times, you're taking a fork in a road and I don't believe that fork includes Kotkaniemi.

They've sat Kotkaniemi behind Danault for 3yrs now, you can't keep doing that forever. You have to believe in your scouting and projections about what you think he can become with additional responsibilities.

It worked for Suzuki and it worked for Danault.

Not sure why they would think it wouldn't for Kotkaniemi.

This idea that Suzuki and Danault earned their stripes until they were given a larger role is bullshit lol...they were thrust into roles because the team needed it and they both responded.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

How quickly people in here can forget how well Kotkaniemi was playing for the majority of this season, and yet instead of receiving increased responsibility, solidified linemates, and increased playing time, he got 18 different sets of linemates, wildly varying deployment, and switched back & forth from wing to centre to get other players going...and then Staalsy comes and he's treated even more erratically and irrationally...so for everyone in here complaining that he has to show he can handle more before he gets it, here's the big Q; why didn't he get rewarded when he was playing better than Suzuki & Danault??...what happened instead??...Dum Dom kept the yo-yo going with Kotkaniemi to get Suzuki and Danault going, that's what happened...Kotkaniemi's been nothing but an afterthought all damn year despite HE being the 20 year old prospect that we need to be a big part of our future and that we banked on with a #3 Overall pick...it's more than just ridiculous, it's batshyte crazy and yet it's not even the first time in Bargain Bin's tenure that we've done this to a highly-touted Top 5 Overall pick...how in the Blue Hell are we supposed to develop these highly touted kids when the damn team repeatedly does this bullshyte to them when they're still green??...how are they supposed to say to these kids that "It's on you to prove yourself" and then, when they are proving themselves, just f*ck them over even more and then wonder why they lose confidence??...even fans doing it is one thing, but these morons that the Organization hire are supposed to be knowledgeable hockey people...it's moronic, disingenuous, and most of all, utterly pathetic...

 

[Roadhouse]

In a way, Danault -by refusing 5.5 a year- was banking on Kotkaniemi not improving much, and ultimately not threatening him.

PD "I'm worth more, Marc."

MB "How is that? I also have to pay Kéké."

PD "Give him less than you planned, he's never going to be a top centre."

MB "How do you know that Phil?"

PD "Look at how he skates. Look at how little it takes to get him winded."

MB "I don't watch most games. So I'll take the year to think about it. No extension for either of you right now."

PD "When you see me shutting down Matthews this year, try to imagine it's Kéké. Good luck."

 

[Habs Icing]

I wasn't being rhetorical...it was an honest question.



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I see some 13 and 12 minutes in that list. KK's fan club has been complaining about KK's TOI this year when he was getting almost 15 minutes. But the total TOI is not indicative of his usage. I gave you a link where it showed 20% of his lines last year Suzuki played with a combination of Cousins, Thompson, Weal, Lehky, and Byron. Not exactly a roll call of top 6 players. Suzuki worked his way up from the fourth line. He may have done it quickly but that's because he demonstrated he was able to handle his responsibilities. In other words, he earned his way.

 

[417]

How quickly people in here can forget how well Kotkaniemi was playing for the majority of this season, and yet instead of receiving increased responsibility, solidified linemates, and increased playing time, he got 18 different sets of linemates, wildly varying deployment, and switched back & forth from wing to centre to get other players going...and then Staalsy comes and he's treated even more erratically and irrationally...so for everyone in here complaining that he has to show he can handle more before he gets it, here's the big Q; why didn't he get rewarded when he was playing better than Suzuki & Danault??...what happened instead??...Dum Dom kept the yo-yo going with Kotkaniemi to get Suzuki and Danault going, that's what happened...Kotkaniemi's been nothing but an afterthought all damn year despite HE being the 20 year old prospect that we need to be a big part of our future and that we banked on with a #3 Overall pick...it's more than just ridiculous, it's batshyte crazy and yet it's not even the first time in Bargain Bin's tenure that we've done this to a highly-touted Top 5 Overall pick...how in the Blue Hell are we supposed to develop these highly touted kids when the damn team repeatedly does this bullshyte to them when they're still green??...how are they supposed to say to these kids that "It's on you to prove yourself" and then, when they are proving themselves, just f*ck them over even more and then wonder why they lose confidence??...even fans doing it is one thing, but these morons that the Organization hire are supposed to be knowledgeable hockey people...it's moronic, disingenuous, and most of all, utterly pathetic...

Wonder how that affects a player's confidence...especially when he sees his that others do get rewarded for their performances.

 

[417]

I see some 13 and 12 minutes in that list. KK's fan club has been complaining about KK's TOI this year when he was getting almost 15 minutes. But the total TOI is not indicative of his usage. I gave you a link where it showed 20% of his lines last year Suzuki played with a combination of Cousins, Thompson, Weal, Lehky, and Byron. Not exactly a roll call of top 6 players. Suzuki worked his way up from the fourth line. He may have done it quickly but that's because he demonstrated he was able to handle his responsibilities. In other words, he earned his way.

Yes and you also see more 15-16-17 minutes in that list, which isn't indicative of a player playing 4th line minutes.

You can try to use the narrative that Suzuki "earned it" and I guess on a certain level, he did.

But that hasn't applied to Kotkaniemi.

Whatever good streak Suzuki was on for that "20%" of the season, we've also seen from Kotkaniemi for a stretch of games. None of that ever resulted in an increased role.

Actually wait...it did...during the bubble last year.

He played pretty well wouldn't you say?

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I see some 13 and 12 minutes in that list. KK's fan club has been complaining about KK's TOI this year when he was getting almost 15 minutes. But the total TOI is not indicative of his usage. I gave you a link where it showed 20% of his lines last year Suzuki played with a combination of Cousins, Thompson, Weal, Lehky, and Byron. Not exactly a roll call of top 6 players. Suzuki worked his way up from the fourth line. He may have done it quickly but that's because he demonstrated he was able to handle his responsibilities. In other words, he earned his way.

...and so did Kotkaniemi for the majority of the year with a turnstile of linemates and wildly varying deployment for the first 2/3rds of the year, yet all he got was switched to wing to get Danault going and kept losing linemates to get Suzuki going...so you're entire premise here that he as to earn it is completely disingenuous because he was earning it with his play and still got the shaft by Clod and Dum Dom...

 

[Roadhouse]

Like....... I know it's been mentioned a few pages back, but....... this whole argument about where Kotkaniemi ranks in the C lineup wouldn't exist if not for Jake Evans. Even with Bergevin's preeeeccccccious Staal onboard, KK would get his merry go-round ice time and there would be less whining about other C's "blocking" him.

Jake has been a revelation. He might not be done improving either. 7th round pick dogging it to take a 1st round pick's job outright.

Imagine that.

 

[Habs Icing]

The needle won't move as long as he goes into next season with the same role they've had earmarked for him since his rookie year.

He's a 3rd/4th line C...25-30pts.

Don't expect more if his role stays the same.

Also, the idea that he needs to force the coaching staff hand to "earn" more playing time is noble...but in reality, with a Danault making 5-5.5M and given his value on this team in the coaching staff's eyes, I don't expect there's anything Kotkaniemi will be able to do to "earn" more playing time.

I can't believe you're saying that!
They gave him regular PP time this year. What the puck has he done with it? 4 measly points. Suzuki more than tripled KK's output. I guess Nick didn't earn his points. You telling me KK earned that time on the PP? Jeeze, man, I understand saying we gotta go easy on the kid he's only 20 but this new excuse that he's being held down, it's just too much.

 

[Habs Icing]

...and so did Kotkaniemi for the majority of the year with a turnstile of linemates and wildly varying deployment for the first 2/3rds of the year, yet all he got was switched to wing to get Danault going and kept losing linemates to get Suzuki going...so you're entire premise here that he as to earn it is completely disingenuous because he was earning it with his play and still got the shaft by Clod and Dum Dom...

To get Suzuki going? Are you listening to what you're saying? Suzuki had a season comparable to a 60 point regular season. KK had a 29 point season going. With freaking regular PP time. And speaking of the PP. On that PP He got a regular shift and his linemates were fairly regular. You know what he accomplished there? 4 freaking points. Suzuki got 13.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

To get Suzuki going? Are you listening to what you're saying? Suzuki had a season comparable to a 60 point regular season. KK had a 29 point season going. With freaking regular PP time. And speaking of the PP. On that PP He got a regular shift and his linemates were fairly regular. You know what he accomplished there? 4 freaking points. Suzuki got 13.

Did you just not watch the games??...Suzuki was slumping hard in the middle of the season and it was well documented here and in the media; in fact, were anyone to look, I'd bet that you probably posted about it, as most of us did...you note examples when they fit your narrative and ignore them when they don't...but only when it comes to Kotkaniemi...why??...

 

[Habs Icing]

Did you just not watch the games??...Suzuki was slumping hard in the middle of the season and it was well documented here and in the media; in fact, were anyone to look, I'd bet that you probably posted about it, as most of us did...you note examples when they fit your narrative and ignore them when they don't...but only when it comes to Kotkaniemi...why??...

First off, I didn't agree with the refrain that Suzuki was slumping hard. He had slowed down slightly on the offensive side, yes.
Secondly, he ended the season with a point count comparable to a 60 point total, so how hard did he really slump? Or was it simply hockey fans exaggerating?

 

[Le Tricolore]

Why has this thread turned into Suzuki vs Kotkaniemi?

Both players are on the Habs and we need both to be successful for the team to be any good. Development for each person won't necessarily be the same, so comparing exactly what's being done for one and then the other is silly.

The reality is Suzuki has been earned playing time and has produced.

The reality is also that Koktaniemi was quietly having himself a solid season until Eric Staal joined the team and then KK's role changed and his production halted. This wouldn't be so bad if Staal came in and was producing at even the same pace KK was or better, but he's obviously been terrible.

Hopefully Kotkaniemi gets to play in the playoffs and is given a chance to help the team.

 

[Roadhouse]

First off, I didn't agree with the refrain that Suzuki was slumping hard. He had slowed down slightly on the offensive side, yes.
Secondly, he ended the season with a point count comparable to a 60 point total, so how hard did he really slump? Or was it simply hockey fans exaggerating?

Kotkaniemi the BMW that's got warning lights on the dash, Suzuki the Lexus that hauls ass over 400,000 miles.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

KK put up 4 points in 28 games when he played over 15 mins this year. In games over 16 mins he had 3 points in 13 games and in games over 17 mins he had 1 point in 6 games.

Increasing his minutes won't magically turn him into a top six centre. He needs to improve his strength and conditioning, as a skinny 6'3" 20 year old and how brutal our schedule was it isn't surprising.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

First off, I didn't agree with the refrain that Suzuki was slumping hard. He had slowed down slightly on the offensive side, yes.
Secondly, he ended the season with a point count comparable to a 60 point total, so how hard did he really slump? Or was it simply hockey fans exaggerating?

Disingenuous...completely disingenuous...you ignore what was plainly visible and well documented...when Suzuki slumps, he was just in a funk and needed a bit of a push & patience...when No Skill Phil slumps for the better part of the season, it's matchups and injuries...but when Kotkaniemi slumps at the end of the season after progressing his game well for the better part of it, it's all on him and he needs to play better or be sat...and then you complain that others are "making excuses"...same self-destructive hypocrisy that has been stagnating and hampering the development of our prospects for faaar too long...

 

[Adriatic]

Evans played his way from the press box all the way to the 3rd line and people still mad at Staal for taking KK spot lolol. It's ok to admit KK has been dogsh*t this past month, totally invisible.