Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Staaled Out Edition

[Roadhouse]

I hope you realize that's a crock. Suzuki started off on the 4th line last year when KK was on the third. Suzuki earned his way up the lineup. KK earned his way into the press box.

...also noting that Suzuki's ability to adapt has no equal on this Habs roster, a direct result of his overall high hockey IQ.

 

[Roadhouse]

How did he "earn" his icetime?

Can you point to something specific he did better than Kotkaniemi did his rookie season?

Yes Suzuki played well...and the team responded by rewarding him with more icetime and responsibilities.

This has NEVER happened with Kotkaniemi...he's had several stretches of strong play that never resulted in the same outcome it did for Suzuki and Danault.

Maybe to something he does not do, rather... Suzuki never takes himself out of the play like KK does.

Elusive C to cover East-West in our zone? KK is often out.

Choosing to deliver an actual hit where he may or may not fall down after impact? KK is out.

Waiting too damn long with the god damn puck on his stick as he approaches the blue line? You guessed it, KK is out.

None of that happens on any kind of regular basis with Suzuki. He's a ****ing tank in comparison, and HE can shoot his ammo at the opposing goalie to top it off.

 

[Habs Icing]

How did he "earn" his icetime?

Can you point to something specific he did better than Kotkaniemi did his rookie season?

Yes Suzuki played well...and the team responded by rewarding him with more icetime and responsibilities.

This has NEVER happened with Kotkaniemi...he's had several stretches of strong play that never resulted in the same outcome it did for Suzuki and Danault.

You wanna get rhetorical? I can ask you the same thing. What did KK do to earn anything?

Last year Suzuki garnered 41 points in 71 games of which he played 20% of his games on the 4th line.

Source: Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

KK scored 8 points in 36 games after being handed 3rd line duties and had to be sent to the AHL to get his game together.

 

[JianYang]

He started out on the 4th like but didn't spend too much time there.

He didn't earn shit...the team was bereft of C's

I don't know what "earning" it exactly means, but I feel that circumstance and timing have alot to do with opportunity, along with player performance. Danault was playing well, and happened to be in the right place at the right time to move up the lineup.

Had KK been put in a situation where a team was deep on centers, we may have just started to see him in the nhl recently, whereas with the habs situation, it feels like he's been on the big roster for a long time.

 

[Runner77]

...also noting that Suzuki's ability to adapt has no equal on this Habs roster, a direct result of his overall high hockey IQ.

Adding to that, the only time a team can afford to draft a player early who is not the fleetest of foot is when he possesses that massive Suzuki-like IQ.

 

[417]

Maybe to something he does not do, rather... Suzuki never takes himself out of the play like KK does.

Elusive C to cover East-West in our zone? KK is often out.

Choosing to deliver an actual hit where he may or may not fall down after impact? KK is out.

Waiting too damn long with the god damn puck on his stick as he approaches the blue line? You guessed it, KK is out.

None of that happens on any kind of regular basis with Suzuki. He's a ****ing tank in comparison, and HE can shoot his ammo at the opposing goalie to top it off.

All of this is subjective, I've seen Suzuki miss on his fair share of assignments too.

That's not really the point.

The point here is the coaching staff rewarded Suzuki and Danault and their strong play with added responsibilities and icetime, and rightfully so. So I understand that by definition they both "earned" it.

But why was the reaction different when Kotkaniemi played well? Why wasn't his strong play rewarded.

Kotkaniemi started his career as a quasi 3rd line/4th line sheltered C.

3yrs later...that's the exact same role he's playing.

Are you suggesting that for Kotkaniemi's career 171 games..he's been awful??

 

[Roadhouse]

All of this is subjective, I've seen Suzuki miss on his fair share of assignments too.

That's not really the point.

The point here is the coaching staff rewarded Suzuki and Danault and their strong play with added responsibilities and icetime, and rightfully so. So I understand that by definition they both "earned" it.

But why was the reaction different when Kotkaniemi played well? Why wasn't his strong play rewarded.

Kotkaniemi started his career as a quasi 3rd line/4th line sheltered C.

3yrs later...that's the exact same role he's playing.

Are you suggesting that for Kotkaniemi's career 171 games..he's been awful??

He's been WILDLY, WIIIIIIILDLY inconsistent. There. And that's no bueno as top 2 C for now, but oh well it's part of his story. More at 11, or in 2023.

 

[Habs Icing]

All of this is subjective, I've seen Suzuki miss on his fair share of assignments too.

That's not really the point.

The point here is the coaching staff rewarded Suzuki and Danault and their strong play with added responsibilities and icetime, and rightfully so. So I understand that by definition they both "earned" it.

But why was the reaction different when Kotkaniemi played well? Why wasn't his strong play rewarded.

Kotkaniemi started his career as a quasi 3rd line/4th line sheltered C.

3yrs later...that's the exact same role he's playing.

Are you suggesting that for Kotkaniemi's career 171 games..he's been awful??

Because the games he played well were few and far between. Fewer and further between than Suzuki's. Are you completely forgetting he was sent to the A last year?

 

[Wats]

How did he "earn" his icetime?

Can you point to something specific he did better than Kotkaniemi did his rookie season?

Yes Suzuki played well...and the team responded by rewarding him with more icetime and responsibilities.

This has NEVER happened with Kotkaniemi...he's had several stretches of strong play that never resulted in the same outcome it did for Suzuki and Danault.

Suzuki has for the most part produced in his offensive opportunities. Danault for the most part has been matched up against top lines and defensive situations with no PP time, don't believe Kotkaniemi/Suzuki will survive in that role.

Disagree that Danault impacts KK as much as you say. There is a 2nd wave PP, potentially some PK, secondary scoring role available for him. Julien did a much better job in giving KK a more stable role. Ducharme has been horrible, especially with Staal's addition.

Unless there's a new management that will finally blow this roster up and goes for rebuild, Danault has a role as safety net until Kotkaniemi develops. End of the day, don't bring young players into NHL if they aren't ready. If he can't develop playing 14-16 min actually getting O-Zone faceoffs/PP time, might as well send him to Finnish League to let him grow offensively like Puljujarvi.

Similar to Romanov/Mete, really don't see how players can transition their offensive game unless they are given the minutes without a leash in NHL or successfully had a lot of reps in pro hockey preforming the offense.

 

[swimmer77]

C'mon, kiddo. Clean slate for the playoffs. Just play and have some fun.

 

[417]

You wanna get rhetorical? I can ask you the same thing. What did KK do to earn anything?

I wasn't being rhetorical...it was an honest question.

Last year Suzuki garnered 41 points in 71 games of which he played 20% of his games on the 4th line.

Source: Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

13:39
13:39
12:29
16:30
16:08
14:49
14:49
15:30
12:25
14:35

Those were the TOI/g for Nick Suzuki's first 10 games as a rookie.

Do these look like 4th line usage to you? How many 4th line C's play more than 16 mins in a game?

Those last 2 questions are rhetorical btw

KK scored 8 points in 36 games after being handed 3rd line duties and had to be sent to the AHL to get his game together.

Hmmm...you're talking about Kotkaniemi's 2nd season here.

Compare apples to apples.

Despite being 1yr younger, Kotkaniemi put up 34pts in 79 games...not as good statistically as Suzuki's rookie season, sure, but not the same circumstances either.

 

[417]

He's been WILDLY, WIIIIIIILDLY inconsistent. There. And that's no bueno as top 2 C for now, but oh well it's part of his story. More at 11, or in 2023.

Like every other player on this roster...but we expect the youngest one to be LESS inconsistent than the others?

How much has this coaching staff and their usage of him contributed to that inconsistency? Think they may have played a part?

 

[Roadhouse]

Like every other player on this roster...but we expect the youngest one to be LESS inconsistent than the others?

How much has this coaching staff and their usage of him contributed to that inconsistency? Think they may have played a part?

Wrong. It's so far apart, Suzuki is the poster boy for defensive consistency and Kotkaniemi is the poster boy for shit decision-making.

Guess which one earns the ice time?

You're absolutely blind if you don't see they're worlds apart right. Blind. Buh bye.

 

[tooji]

Somebody was ripping KK for this about a week ago. Said his stick was way too long.

Hopefully this adjustment helps.

I’ve ripped into him for this in the past too. If he can adjust to a shorter stick I think it will make his life easier.

 

[417]

Because the games he played well were few and far between. Fewer and further between than Suzuki's. Are you completely forgetting he was sent to the A last year?

That's not even true...and yes, I remember he was sent to the AHL last year.

Kotkaniemi was having a solid rookie season, he was trending towards a 40pt rookie season until before the trade deadline, CJ decided to remind everyone of his age and that he was tired, so they brought in Nate Thompson, who just like Staal, took some of the few responsibilities and opporutnities Kotkaniemi had and Kotkaniemi's confidence was wiped to end the year.

His second season, the Habs re-sign Thompson...so what do you think happens? He struggles playing a bit role...eventually he gets sent down to the AHL (not defending him here either, he didn't look good).

He comes back for the playoff bubble...everyone thinks he's going to sit, but because Domi has health issues...Kotkaniemi suprisingly gets to reclaim that 4th line center spot, with Thompson gone he doesn't have to worry about him. He gets off to a hot start in the playoffs, to the point where by game 3, he's actually relegated Danault to a 3rd line role (which causes Danault to publicly complain). Kotkaniemi responds by being one of the Habs best players during the playoffs, he has a few games where his icetime actually exceeds 19 mins. He's actually on the ice in some moments when the Habs need an extra attacker. He's playing with high confidence.

Flash forward to his year...he starts out in his usual 3rd line C role. Danault struggles, Kotkaniemi gets off to a decent start...6pts in 10 games. As the season continues, Kotkaniemi continues to play solidly while Danault eventually finds his groove. The Habs eventually trade for Eric Stall, replicating the Nate Thompson sceneario from 3yrs prior, and unsurprisingly...Kotkaniemi's confidence goes down the drain.

That's pretty much a resume of his time with the Habs.

You want to knock him for not being consistent...OK, fair.

But the coaching staff and management decisions haven't done him any favors either.

 

[417]

Wrong. It's so far apart, Suzuki is the poster boy for defensive consistency and Kotkaniemi is the poster boy for shit decision-making.

Guess which one earns the ice time?

You're absolutely blind if you don't see they're worlds apart right. Blind. Buh bye.

lol keep telling yourself that.

 

[417]

Suzuki has for the most part produced in his offensive opportunities. Danault for the most part has been matched up against top lines and defensive situations with no PP time, don't believe Kotkaniemi/Suzuki will survive in that role.

The role that's so crucial to being an extremely mediocre team?

Disagree that Danault impacts KK as much as you say. There is a 2nd wave PP, potentially some PK, secondary scoring role available for him. Julien did a much better job in giving KK a more stable role. Ducharme has been horrible, especially with Staal's addition.

Unless there's a new management that will finally blow this roster up and goes for rebuild, Danault has a role as safety net until Kotkaniemi develops. End of the day, don't bring young players into NHL if they aren't ready. If he can't develop playing 14-16 min actually getting O-Zone faceoffs/PP time, might as well send him to Finnish League to let him grow offensively like Puljujarvi.

Similar to Romanov/Mete, really don't see how players can transition their offensive game unless they are given the minutes without a leash in NHL or successfully had a lot of reps in pro hockey preforming the offense.

That safety net is going to cost 5+M to keep beyond this year.

At that price, he's no longer a safety net.

 

[azcanuck]

I’ve ripped into him for this in the past too. If he can adjust to a shorter stick I think it will make his life easier.

If it wasnt for fan suggestions many NHL players would never have a career.

 

[azcanuck]

People point at KK's age and say he's only 20. But that argument is mitigated somewhat by the fact he's in his third year and there has been a noticeable regression.
Next year the needle must point towards vast improvement or you can start calling this pick a bust.

 

[BLONG7]

People point at KK's age and say he's only 20. But that argument is mitigated somewhat by the fact he's in his third year and there has been a noticeable regression.
Next year the needle must point towards vast improvement or you can start calling this pick a bust.

Regression can happen, especially to a young gun.............KK should have never been in the league until this past year.
Even a guy like 5M Phil regressed this year, and he had top linemates all year.....it happens.
KK needs stability just like Phil the difference he hasn't whined about it.
Remember last years play ins and playoffs.....KK brought it....he should be in the lineup, and Staal should sit. Everyone knows it...

 

[417]

...also noting that Suzuki's ability to adapt has no equal on this Habs roster, a direct result of his overall high hockey IQ.

Suzuki is great...but let's please stop acting like he's flawless on the ice.

He's had his fair share of lapses playing and learning the position at the NHL level.

 

[417]

People point at KK's age and say he's only 20. But that argument is mitigated somewhat by the fact he's in his third year and there has been a noticeable regression.
Next year the needle must point towards vast improvement or you can start calling this pick a bust.

The needle won't move as long as he goes into next season with the same role they've had earmarked for him since his rookie year.

He's a 3rd/4th line C...25-30pts.

Don't expect more if his role stays the same.

Also, the idea that he needs to force the coaching staff hand to "earn" more playing time is noble...but in reality, with a Danault making 5-5.5M and given his value on this team in the coaching staff's eyes, I don't expect there's anything Kotkaniemi will be able to do to "earn" more playing time.

 

[Habit11]

The needle won't move as long as he goes into next season with the same role they've had earmarked for him since his rookie year.

He's a 3rd/4th line C...25-30pts.

Don't expect more if his role stays the same.

Also, the idea that he needs to force the coaching staff hand to "earn" more playing time is noble...but in reality, with a Danault making 5-5.5M and given his value on this team in the coaching staff's eyes, I don't expect there's anything Kotkaniemi will be able to do to "earn" more playing time.

Caufield tied for 12th leading goal scorer in the entire league in May, but looks unlikely to draw in ahead of the well deserved and often healthy scratched Artturi Lehkonen or frequent flyer on the waiver wire Paul Byron. This team, like all teams, is a dictatorship and not a meritocracy much like you've stated repeatedly.

Once upon a time Jaroslav Halak "earned" the starting job in Montreal, and shortly thereafter he was traded to St. Louis. Dictatorship not a meritocracy.

 

[417]

Caufield tied for 12th leading goal scorer in the entire league in May, but looks unlikely to draw in ahead of the well deserved and often healthy scratched Artturi Lehkonen or frequent flyer on the waiver wire Paul Byron. This team, like all teams, is a dictatorship and not a meritocracy much like you've stated repeatedly.

Once upon a time Jaroslav Halak "earned" the starting job in Montreal, and shortly thereafter he was traded to St. Louis. Dictatorship not a meritocracy.

Never ceases to amaze me how people just repeat things they hear but never actually bother seeing how or if they're applied.

 

[Habit11]

Never ceases to amaze me how people just repeat things they hear but never actually bother seeing how or if they're applied.

It fails one step further in this assessment because it's easy to see that Evans has outplayed Staal, but Staal will lineup as 3C and not 4C.