Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[DAChampion]

He didnt dominate the AHL. He was decent and nothing great. People here would say we called him up too soon. Hes a highly drafted prospect getting the chance, and if he ends up being better than KK, I seriously doubt it will be because of a meh performance in the AHL. Just like how the extra half season in junior with Morgan Reilly isnt the reason why he is so much better than Galchenyuk.

Morgan Rielly had an extra half season and then a whole lot of extra minutes.

Rielly also didn't miss a year prior to the draft.

How's Zadina doing in Detroit -- is he on the 4th line?

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Morgan Rielly had an extra half season and then a whole lot of extra minutes.

Rielly also didn't miss a year prior to the draft.

How's Zadina doing in Detroit -- is he on the 4th line?

He played 20 games in the ahl this season and 7 points in 11 matches in the NHL.

I mean Detroit has no players in the top 9 or barely

 

[Mrb1p]

For those saying that playing Kotkaniemi in the nhl last season ruined his development, then do you agree that Hughes, Kakko, and Dach are all having their development ruined right now and that it will prevent them from reaching their potential?
At this point in the season last year, Kotkaniemi was having a better season than those 3.

Everything is case by case, but I wouldn't say its the best path for their development. I thought Kakko and Hughes were ready but it doesn't seem like it. One more year back home wouldn't have been bad for them. Dach had things to learn too in the CHL.

No, it doesn't mean theyre ruined, just like KK isn't ruined, but it certainly isnt optimal.

 

[The Great Weal]

Rielly also didn't miss a year prior to the draft.

Jesus christ please do your research properly before writing stuff. He played 18 games in his draft year due to a knee injury.

 

[Andrei79]

He didnt dominate the AHL. He was decent and nothing great. People here would say we called him up too soon. Hes a highly drafted prospect getting the chance, and if he ends up being better than KK, I seriously doubt it will be because of a meh performance in the AHL. Just like how the extra half season in junior with Morgan Reilly isnt the reason why he is so much better than Galchenyuk.

Exactly. We can assume Fleury's time in the AHL also didn't have any impact on his development. Because nothing ever does.

 

[The Great Weal]

Exactly. We can assume Fleury's time in the AHL also didn't have any impact on his development. Because nothing ever does.

People here are saying prospects should DOMINATE before coming here. Many here wanted Fleury sent down and dominate before coming back up. Where did Zadina dominate exactly? He was pure garbage at the last WJCs where many people wanted KK to go and play.

For the record, I want KK to get sent down. I just think its laughable that people here are saying you can only get called up if you dominate the league.

 

[Tighthead]

Everything is case by case, but I wouldn't say its the best path for their development. I thought Kakko and Hughes were ready but it doesn't seem like it. One more year back home wouldn't have been bad for them. Dach had things to learn too in the CHL.

No, it doesn't mean theyre ruined, just like KK isn't ruined, but it certainly isnt optimal.

I think one problem is that the CHL isn’t a great development option for top players in their D+1 season. Especially for highly skilled forwards, they have already dominated.

NCAA and AHL are more appealing, imo, for prospects who have those options.

 

[DAChampion]

People here are saying prospects should DOMINATE before coming here. Many here wanted Fleury sent down and dominate before coming back up. Where did Zadina dominate exactly? He was pure garbage at the last WJCs where many people wanted KK to go and play.

For the record, I want KK to get sent down. I just think its laughable that people here are saying you can only get called up if you dominate the league.

You're missing the point(s) by running to extremes.

Zadina may not have dominated the AHL, bit his performance was respectable, and at the very least, he got a lot of ice time.

Kotkaniemi would have been better off in the AHL last year even if he had only produced 50 points in 70 games.

 

[DAChampion]

Jesus christ please do your research properly before writing stuff. He played 18 games in his draft year due to a knee injury.

Prior to entering the league, Rielly had played 40 additional CHL games relative to Galchenyuk, and an 14 additional AHL games.

The details did not stand, but the overall point did.

 

[The Great Weal]

You're missing the point(s) by running to extremes.

Zadina may not have dominated the AHL, bit his performance was respectable, and at the very least, he got a lot of ice time.

Kotkaniemi would have been better off in the AHL last year even if he had only produced 50 points in 70 games.

Kotkaniemi was great at the start of the year, I dont know why people think he sucked then. He pretty much forced Plekanecs retirement, which is saying something since he was pretty much Juliens son. He struggled near the end and everyone thinks he was rushed. Also 50 points in 70 games is quite a bit better than what Zadina did, especially since Detroits ahl team is better offensively.

 

[The Great Weal]

The details did not stand, but the overall point did.

No you are backtracking big time. Rielly did miss a lot of time during his draft year. That extra half a season in their d+1 is NOT the reason why he is so much better.

 

[DAChampion]

Kotkaniemi was great at the start of the year, I dont know why people think he sucked then. He pretty much forced Plekanecs retirement, which is saying something since he was pretty much Juliens son. He struggled near the end and everyone thinks he was rushed. Also 50 points in 70 games is quite a bit better than what Zadina did, especially since Detroits ahl team is much better offensively.

Kotkaniemi had a splendid rookie campaign which does undermine the emerging view that Timmins screwed up.

But he'd have been better in the AHL. He'd have likely dominated unlike Zadina, and Bouchard would not have punished him once the inevitable slump happened.

 

[DAChampion]

No you are backtracking big time. Rielly did miss a lot of time during his draft year. That extra half a season in their d+1 is NOT the reason why he is so much better.

I think those 54 games go a long way, and then Toronto have him more minutes and a better environment when he got there.

I did not want Galchenyuk to make the team in 2013.

 

[Mrb1p]

I think one problem is that the CHL isn’t a great development option for top players in their D+1 season. Especially for highly skilled forwards, they have already dominated.

NCAA and AHL are more appealing, imo, for prospects who have those options.

I don't disagree, I think the NCAA and Liiga are the best development leagues, IMO.

I do think Dach couldve used some seasoning still, he's just growing into that big body of his and he needs playing time, and a lot of it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Kotkaniemi had a splendid rookie campaign which does undermine the emerging view that Timmins screwed up.

But he'd have been better in the AHL. He'd have likely dominated unlike Zadina, and Bouchard would not have punished him once the inevitable slump happened.

I thought he was fantastic right up until we benched him. He hasn't been the same since. It just seems like he somehow wound up in the coach's bad books and I don't understand it.

 

[ahmedou]

Let's no be dubious on Kotkaniemi. KK made the team precociously. He've to start again from scratch ok. Without skipping the fundamental steps. He hasn't reached yet his full potential. He's a long-term project first and foremost.

 

[The Great Weal]

Kotkaniemi had a splendid rookie campaign which does undermine the emerging view that Timmins screwed up.

But he'd have been better in the AHL. He'd have likely dominated unlike Zadina, and Bouchard would not have punished him once the inevitable slump happened.

You know many players do great in their rookie year and actually regress right? Tyler Myers is an example. How can you say he didnt screw up based on one year?

I think those 54 games go a long way, and then Toronto have him more minutes and a better environment when he got there.

I did not want Galchenyuk to make the team in 2013.

What 54 games? He played 27 more junior games in the d+1. He had a meh WJC and wasnt good in the AHL. Theres no point in having this conversation with you because you make stuff up, fail to do your research and refuse to admit you are dead wrong while back tracking. You keep try to bullshit about how "I'm missing the point" when you are 100% incorrect and refuse to admit it for some reason. Dont blame me because you have no idea what you are talking about. If you think Timmins is a god and that those 27 extra games in junior for a d+1 year is what made Rielly so much better than Galchenyuk, go right ahead. While you are at it, you can think that Randy Carlyle who is an incredibly toxic coach helped out Rielly tremendously to become a stud dman.

 

[The Great Weal]

I thought he was fantastic right up until we benched him. He hasn't been the same since. It just seems like he somehow wound up in the coach's bad books and I don't understand it.

Why should a benching carry over to the next few seasons?

 

[JoelWarlord]

Why should a benching carry over to the next few seasons?

Because the benching/"fatigue" coincided with the team acquiring a veteran center who they've played too much and gushed about since they acquired him.

 

[DAChampion]

You know many players do great in their rookie year and actually regress right? Tyler Myers is an example. How can you say he didnt screw up based on one year?

What 54 games? He played 27 more junior games in the d+1. He had a meh WJC and wasnt good in the AHL. Theres no point in having this conversation with you because you make stuff up, fail to do your research and refuse to admit you are dead wrong while back tracking. You keep try to bull**** about how "I'm missing the point" when you are 100% incorrect and refuse to admit it for some reason. Dont blame me because you have no idea what you are talking about. If you think Timmins is a god and that those 27 extra games in junior for a d+1 year is what made Rielly so much better than Galchenyuk, go right ahead. While you are at it, you can think that Randy Carlyle who is an incredibly toxic coach helped out Rielly tremendously to become a stud dman.

You really suck at math.

Morgan Rielly played 143 CHL games and 14 AHL games.

Alex Galchenyuk played 103 CHL games and 0 AHL games.

The total difference in pre-NHL games is 40+14=54.

I'm embarrassed that I had to do that second grade math for you.

ETA: I neglected playoff games at both levels. The gap widens to 67 games.

The way to see that this indeed matters is to recognize that a full season usually makes a difference for 18 year olds.

 

[DAChampion]

I thought he was fantastic right up until we benched him. He hasn't been the same since. It just seems like he somehow wound up in the coach's bad books and I don't understand it.

There's just more of a risk of being benched at the NHL level.

Julien loses his job if the veterans stop liking him and if the team doesn't make the playoffs.

Bouchard loses his job if the youth don't develop.

Different incentives.

 

[The Great Weal]

You really suck at math.

Morgan Rielly played 143 CHL games and 14 AHL games.

Alex Galchenyuk played 103 CHL games and 0 AHL games.

The total difference in pre-NHL games is 40+14=54.

You really suck at reading comprehension. I said in their d+1 there is no 54 game difference.

I'm embarrassed I had to help you with grade 2 reading.

I'm curious to see how you back track from this one. Cant wait to see you shift all the blame to me when you cant do simple research.

 

[DAChampion]

i said in their d+1

I was obviously counting pre-NHL games.

What do you not understand of the word "prior"?

Here is the post in question.

Prior to entering the league, Rielly had played 40 additional CHL games relative to Galchenyuk, and an 14 additional AHL games.

The details did not stand, but the overall point did.

 

[The Great Weal]

I was obviously counting pre-NHL games.

What do you not understand of the word "prior"?

Here is the post in question.

Yikes looks like you didn't even bother reading what I said which explains a lot.

No you are backtracking big time. Rielly did miss a lot of time during his draft year. That extra half a season in their d+1 is NOT the reason why he is so much better.

To which you replied:

I think those 54 games go a long way, and then Toronto have him more minutes and a better environment when he got there.

Why are you even counting games before their draft year? You are going at ridiculous lengths to defend your incorrect statement. Want to bring up how much each of them practiced hockey when they were 9 years old as well?


Just accept the defeat man, I like you as a poster but you couldn't be more wrong when you said "Rielly also didn't miss a year prior to the draft.". If you didn't know that huge piece of information, what makes you think I'll believe whatever else you say?

 

[DAChampion]

Yikes looks like you didn't even bother reading what I said which explains a lot.

To which you replied:


Why are you even counting games before their draft year? You are going at ridiculous lengths to defend your incorrect statement. Want to bring up how much each of them practiced hockey when they were 9 years old as well?


Just accept the defeat man, I like you as a poster but you couldn't be more wrong when you said "Rielly also didn't miss a year prior to the draft.". If you didn't know that huge piece of information, what makes you think I'll believe whatever else you say?

Again:

Prior to entering the league, Rielly had played 40 additional CHL games relative to Galchenyuk, and an 14 additional AHL games.

The details did not stand, but the overall point did.

*******

The general picture is that Rielly got a lot more non-NHL games in prior to entering the NHL.