Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[Lebowski]

I said it last year when things were honky dory and I'll repeat it this year that things have hit the fan, KK is not a #1 C - not even on a lottery team. He just doesn't have the tools. If developed properly he's a #2 with his forte being on the defensive side of the game.

I have a hard time pinpointing his ceiling to be honest. While his skating is definitely lackluster considering where the NHL is headed, his combination of hands, smarts and shot can make him a very dangerous offensive player. I could see a 70 points two-way center in a best case scenario, but it's definitely safer to assume he'd turn out to be a solid 2nd line center if we're trying to establish the line-up structure 4-5 years down the road.

Likewise, I think the safe bet for Poehling would for him to become a 3rd line center as opposed to a 2nd line center "improved Danault". Meaning this team is still plagued by the same issue they've had for years, which is a lack of truly high end forwards.

Drafting Byfield this year would be the dream and it would solve so many issues. Allows us to put Domi back on the wing and with Caufield coming in, it gives us three very good sets of wingers.

Domi - Byfield - Gallagher
Drouin - Kotkaniemi - Caufield
Tatar - Danault/Poehling - Suzuki

That looks alright.

 

[Sorinth]

The goal is to have him follow the development path that'll make him the better player 5 years down the road. Whether he's able to keep up in the NHL at 18 or not isn't relevant in my opinion.

Agreed on the goal.

But the best development path is the one where you get quality icetime at highest level you can have success at. Kotkaniemi could handle the NHL so him being in the NHL or not should be based on whether we give him the proper ice time or not.

Contrast that with a guy like Mete, he couldn't really handle the NHL so instead of playing his game he would entirely focus on not making mistakes instead of trying to assert himself offensively. So he would've been better served playing in a lesser league where he could continue to develop offensively.

 

[Lebowski]

Agreed on the goal.

But the best development path is the one where you get quality icetime at highest level you can have success at. Kotkaniemi could handle the NHL so him being in the NHL or not should be based on whether we give him the proper ice time or not.

Contrast that with a guy like Mete, he couldn't really handle the NHL so instead of playing his game he would entirely focus on not making mistakes instead of trying to assert himself offensively. So he would've been better served playing in a lesser league where he could continue to develop offensively.

Quality ice-time implies consistent production. The issue with young players starting out with quality ice-time is that the production doesn't always follow. Confidence becomes affected, production becomes even harder to come by, and then you end up in a vicious cycle of playing shitty minutes with no confidence.

So to me being able to handle the NHL at 18 is meaningless. If you want to develop an offensive player, I'd rather have him in a position where he gets a ton of minutes and where he can produce at a high rate to build up his confidence.

I look at Pettersson in Vancouver or even Marner in Toronto as good examples. Neither were physically mature enough at 18 to play in the NHL, just like Kotkaniemi, and I think both benefited from their extra development season in their D+1 season.

At this point, I'd have Kotka in the AHL for him to build up his confidence. Pacioretty had that sort of path with the Habs and it's only after being sent back to the AHL in 2011 that he really took off. Draisaitl is another example. Sure he could play in the NHL, but dominating the WHL an extra season was more beneficial to him in the long run. Props to the Oilers for recognizing their mistake on that one.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Kotka has already showed he can play in the NHL, however we want him to develop as a top 6 centre and not a bottom six centre.

By playing in the AHL he can focus on his offense and not have his development stalled like in the NHL where the team is looking to squeak into the playoffs and our coach will go with guys who can help him more now as opposed to in the future.

Unlike a guy like Suzuki who was able to dominate in the OHL offensively, Kotkaniemi has been playing in tough leagues as a 17/18 year old where it would be rare for a player to takeover offensively.. by going to the AHL he can put up more points than he would here and hopefully it'll result in a much more confident offensive player.

To top it off, we have a very good coach in the AHL and some above average offensive AHL players so he'd be in a good spot to get his offensive game on track.

 

[Lebowski]

Kotka has already showed he can play in the NHL, however we want him to develop as a top 6 centre and not a bottom six centre.

By playing in the AHL he can focus on his offense and not have his development stalled like in the NHL where the team is looking to squeak into the playoffs and our coach will go with guys who can help him more now as opposed to in the future.

Unlike a guy like Suzuki who was able to dominate in the OHL offensively, Kotkaniemi has been playing in tough leagues as a 17/18 year old where it would be rare for a player to takeover offensively.. by going to the AHL he can put up more points than he would here and hopefully it'll result in a much more confident offensive player.

Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily expect Kotka to burn the AHL either. I think it'd be a good challenge for him.

 

[Gally11]

We should loan him to WJs - see if that boosts his confidence before going AHL route

 

[Sorinth]

Quality ice-time implies consistent production. The issue with young players starting out with quality ice-time is that the production doesn't always follow. Confidence becomes affected, production becomes even harder to come by, and then you end up in a vicious cycle of playing ****ty minutes with no confidence.

So to me being able to handle the NHL at 18 is meaningless. If you want to develop an offensive player, I'd rather have him in a position where he gets a ton of minutes and where he can produce at a high rate to build up his confidence.

I look at Pettersson in Vancouver or even Marner in Toronto as good examples. Neither were physically mature enough at 18 to play in the NHL, just like Kotkaniemi, and I think both benefited from their extra development season in their D+1 season.

At this point, I'd have Kotka in the AHL for him to build up his confidence. Pacioretty had that sort of path with the Habs and it's only after being sent back to the AHL in 2011 that he really took off. Draisaitl is another example. Sure he could play in the NHL, but dominating the WHL an extra season was more beneficial to him in the long run. Props to the Oilers for recognizing their mistake on that one.

Well I don't agree that quality ice-time needs to be linked to consistent production. When the inevitable slump does happen we can and should still feed him quality ice-time and let him work through it. Problems only arise if as you say we cut ice-time. Speaking of Pacioretty one of the things he said really helped him when he went back to the AHL was that after a bad shift/game the coach still put him out there, it was the coach's trust that gave him confidence.

 

[Lebowski]

Well I don't agree that quality ice-time needs to be linked to consistent production. When the inevitable slump does happen we can and should still feed him quality ice-time and let him work through it. Problems only arise if as you say we cut ice-time. Speaking of Pacioretty one of the things he said really helped him when he went back to the AHL was that after a bad shift/game the coach still put him out there, it was the coach's trust that gave him confidence.

Right, because the AHL is a development league and Pacioretty also happened to be the most talented forward on that team. In that scenario, giving plenty of ice-time to Pacioretty is the best way for the coach to generate offense. The same applies to NHL once you've proved yourself to a certain degree. McDavid could play like dog shit for a week and he'd still get to play 20+ minutes a night, because you just know he remains your best bet to generate offense.

The same doesn't apply for Kotka at the NHL level as we have at least half a dozen players that can produce more than him under the same circumstances. More importantly, there's no way he's going to be a more effective player than the two centers slotted ahead of him, even if given the opportunity to do so. So you either keep him as a 3rd liner in the NHL or you send him to the AHL where he gets to play top minutes even after a couple of bad games. Development wise, the choice should be pretty obvious.

 

[azcanuck]

KK is a big gangly kid who hasn't grown into his body yet. It will happen in the next couple of years.
Claude called out a kid for the last loss instead of his veteran group and the elephant in the room PRICE. Big star goalie who couldn't stop a beach ball.
I'm not against sending KK down now. He's pressing badly. The year is lost for him up here. Do it right send him down.

 

[Tighthead]

We should loan him to WJs - see if that boosts his confidence before going AHL route

I don't think boosting confidence should be the sole focus.

It is about which route will make him the best possible hockey player. Right now, I would say that playing for the Montreal Canadiens is not the route.

 

[Plekatorz]

TRADE HIM FOR SCRAPS , HE JUST TURNED 19 AND HE'S STILL ****

- Robert, 72ans de Jonquiere

Haha I live in jonquiere and I laughed hard

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Things are looking glum for both KK and Poehling.

They are both struggling mightily.

I think we have no choice but to demote KK to the Rocket and have Bouchard work with the kid.

I think he needs to strengthen his core because KK get'S knocked over too easily.

Poehling hopefully gets out of the funk he's in and gets going because h hasn't looked effective in Laval all season.

We promote Belzille.

We can roll with these lines untill KK is ready to come back:

Tatar - Danault - Gally
Lehky - Domi - Armia
Cousins - Suzuki - Belzille
Weal - Thompson - Hudon

I know it's a weak bottom 6, but they can hold the fort I believe until Byron is back and KK get' gis game back.

Or worse case scenario, and I don't really like this, but maybe go ahead and trade one of Poehling or KK for a true #2 LD

??? - Weber
Mete - Petry
Chiarot - Fleury

That #2LD needs to be addressed asap. If not, go and get yourself a true top 6 RW and put Armia on the 3rd where he belongs.

But other than Fleury and Suzuki, out other prospects have stagnated this year so far.

 

[jaffy27]

I don't think boosting confidence should be the sole focus.

It is about which route will make him the best possible hockey player. Right now, I would say that playing for the Montreal Canadiens is not the route.

Playing under Julien is the worst right now for KK.....Julien making sure everyone knows that the 19 year old is responsible for this loss......

My guess is KK wants nothing to do with the puck moving forward. Unless he enjoys being called out in the media and being blamed for the worst loss for the Canadiens in the last 2 decades, he’ll just chip the puck off the glass and go for his line change.....

Happy now Claude, I made the safe play....no minus on this shift

 

[azcanuck]

It's not unusual for prospects to not develop in a linear fashion. And many don't make it plain and simple. I think KK has a much better chance then Poehling.

 

[Sorinth]

Right, because the AHL is a development league and Pacioretty also happened to be the most talented forward on that team. In that scenario, giving plenty of ice-time to Pacioretty is the best way for the coach to generate offense. The same applies to NHL once you've proved yourself to a certain degree. McDavid could play like dog **** for a week and he'd still get to play 20+ minutes a night, because you just know he remains your best bet to generate offense.

The same doesn't apply for Kotka at the NHL level as we have at least half a dozen players that can produce more than him under the same circumstances. More importantly, there's no way he's going to be a more effective player than the two centers slotted ahead of him, even if given the opportunity to do so. So you either keep him as a 3rd liner in the NHL or you send him to the AHL where he gets to play top minutes even after a couple of bad games. Development wise, the choice should be pretty obvious.

Giving the player ice time or not is entirely up to the coach.It's not a choice between bottom six in the NHL or top-6 in the AHL, we have complete freedom to play him top-6 in the NHL if we wanted to. Have we already forgotten about how Desharnais could play like trash and still get prime minutes?

 

[Mrb1p]

Playing under Julien is the worst right now for KK.....Julien making sure everyone knows that the 19 year old is responsible for this loss......

My guess is KK wants nothing to do with the puck moving forward. Unless he enjoys being called out in the media and being blamed for the worst loss for the Canadiens in the last 2 decades, he’ll just chip the puck off the glass and go for his line change.....

Happy now Claude, I made the safe play....no minus on this shift

Jaffy criticising the organisation, it is truly the end of the world as we know it.

 

[Mrb1p]

I said it last year when things were honky dory and I'll repeat it this year that things have hit the fan, KK is not a #1 C - not even on a lottery team. He just doesn't have the tools. If developed properly he's a #2 with his forte being on the defensive side of the game.

All youre doing here is going safe enough to not look dumb if he surpasses and high enough not to look dumb if hes worst. Kotkaniemi has shown everything a 1C needs.

 

[jaffy27]

Jaffy criticising the organisation, it is truly the end of the world as we know it.

I’ve been on Churien Julien for a while now.....He should be let get pis ça presse......promote Bouchard and call it a day.

send Ducharme to Laval as HC

 

[Mrb1p]

I’ve been on Churien Julien for a while now.....He should be let get pis ça presse......promote Bouchard and call it a day.

send Ducharme to Laval as HC

Why not have Ducharme as HC and let Bouchard simmer because hes not looking good in the AHL atm.

 

[Frank Drebin]

They're not going to send him down with JD and Byron injured. Cant see it.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Had to look up the term based lord on urban dictionary, but I wholeheartedly agree.

Although, I still think Jaffy holds the top spot for his intimidation antics on Subban at Cabanas.

It was on Drouin, no ?

 

[Treb]

Why not have Ducharme as HC and let Bouchard simmer because hes not looking good in the AHL atm.

Laval are 3rd in their division (top 4 make the PO) and tied 7th (although tied 11th in pts percentage) in the league.

 

[Mrb1p]

Laval are 3rd in their division (top 4 make the PO) and tied 7th (although tied 11th in pts percentage) in the league.

Still unsure why wed make him the HC. He needs to show more down there, Ducharme is already here, so.

 

[Tighthead]

It was on Drouin, no ?

No, he likes Drouin, so the story would have a more polyamorous outcome.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily expect Kotka to burn the AHL either. I think it'd be a good challenge for him.

I agree. I think he would be challenged in the AHL as well. He's just not physically strong enough to shine against men yet. Hockey IQ and Skill is there and we all agree on that. Problem is he has a hard time with open space and if you touch him, he falls down like Bambi