Jeremy Roenick

[Hobnobs]

Not even 90-91 to 93-94 ?

#3 in goal with 190, only Hull& Robitaille were ahead during that time frame, #6 in point those 4 season with 411 points ahead of Sakic & Gilmour

Yeah, it was a great peak from a non-elite player.

 

[Bustedprospect]

The fact that Roenick and Turgeon have 1200+ and 1300+ pts respectively and aren't in the HHOF is one of hockey's greatest mysteries. Mike Modano is in and he has 1374. Does he get special treatment because he's American? Is there any American player that has more points than Roenick and fewer than Modano?

Modano kills them in comparision.

More liked/respected which is a factor. The face of the franchise is something that is important for the Hall. Turgeon and Roenick are both journeymen.

Better adjusted stats. Mike is 19th alltime. Turgeon is 30th while Roenick is only 39th.

Better overall player.

Better international career.

Better playoff performance and a cup.

 

[Hobnobs]

Modano kills them in comparision.

More liked/respected which is a factor. The face of the franchise is something that is important for the Hall. Turgeon and Roenick are both journeymen.

Better adjusted stats. Mike is 19th alltime. Turgeon is 30th while Roenick is only 39th.

Better overall player.

Better international career.

Better playoff performance and a cup.

Better attitude.

 

[ted2019]

I have both Roenick and Turgeon in my Hall of Fame, and I think Roenick definitely has the Fane aspect nailed down, plus 500 goals.

Just because someone gets 500 goals, does it mean that he's a HOF'er. The last 5 years of his career, he was beyond brutal. Never any sort of post season hardware, as the best he ever did was a 5th place HART vote and 4th place AS vote. Was never considered a top 10 player in the game either. Turgeon was another player like Roenick and he even has a worse post season nominations then Roenick. No way they should be in the HOF.

 

[The Panther]

I wasn't that fond of Modano's stint as a fashion model in Minneapolis.

Good player, though.

 

[Big Phil]

Okay, as a colourful guy he was golden. He was hard to hate. Even as a Leaf fan we saw him a lot in Chicago being a division rival. You couldn't hate the guy. There are some players in sports history that irritate you no matter what. Sean Avery, although he was never good, annoyed me. He wasn't colourful he was a disgrace to the game. Terrell Owens annoyed me to no end in the NFL. Barry Bonds in baseball. The last two, great players for sure, no one can deny this but you hated their attitudes. Roenick was cocky but was more fun loving like someone such as David Ortiz. You couldn't hate the guy because he was funny. Probably because you wanted him on your team and he always came across as a team guy. Maybe that was the issue I had with guys like Avery, Bonds and Owens (did I put all three of them in the same sentence?) they never seemed like team guys. Roenick was funny, he seemed natural. Who else moonwalks during a TV time out?

So for that, I miss him. I wish more players had that fun loving light heartedness about them that made the game more entertaining. Players today are too stoic. Sure there were always guys like McDavid and Crosby who weren't always comfortable with interviews and who you always got the impression would have been more interested spending a quiet night at home. Nothing wrong with that. Sakic, Yzerman, Lemieux, Oates, Bourque, etc. all had those personalities although Mario would often come out of his shell and say something controversial. But there were always the other guys too. Roy, Roenick, Hull, who brought some balance. Then others like Gretzky, Brodeur, etc. that were polite to everyone and were always there for an interview.

I think we need some more "Roenicks" today. Who would that be? Ovechkin is the only personality I can think of. I never got tired of seeing Facebook updates about what he was doing with the Cup last year and I am not even a Caps fan. There was a guy who was enjoying himself.

Here is a good example of Roenick. Rob Gronkowski. For some reason, a lovable personality that is hard to hate.

 

[Big Phil]

Okay, Roenick as a player? Just below the bar for the HHOF in my book. Yet still better than others that got in. Better than Andreychuk, better than Housley and when push comes to shove I think you could say better than Dino, better than Nieuwendyk. At his peak better than Federko but I guess with Bernie he did have a lot better consistency than JR.

He's a guy I almost wish just stayed a Hawk for a long time. He WAS that franchise. He had the flair for it and if he didn't get hurt with his knees he probably maintains his speed for longer and has better seasons after 1994. Then he's in the HHOF for sure. Also, there is no way a GM passes on Roenick for Turgeon. Let's not kid ourselves, it is 1994, who do you want on your team? Roenick was much more of the complete package. I forgot that Roenick actually dropped the gloves 62 times in his career. He fought McSorley, Berube, Ulfie, Probert once, no kidding. You wanted that guy on your team.

Had some good postseasons and it wouldn't have been shocking if Roenick is a Cup winner's #1 center. It almost happened. But it didn't happen. He missed out on the 1996 World Cup when USA won too because he didn't have an NHL contract. To me it is just a shame with those Phoenix years. He was Roenick, but he wasn't "Roenick" like before. Almost 20 years in the NHL and he probably should have been more highly regarded for the Hart or as an all-star at center. He lacks in this area. But like Middleton he is one player that probably needed a Cup just to get in, that is probably what is missing.

 

[trentmccleary]

He was a game breaker who would lay bone crushing hits, fight and generally play good defense.

Beyond scoring lots of goals off breakaways and odd man rushes, he scored quite a few on the PP beside the left side of the net off of passes from Chelios on the right point (passes that would have been impossible for the past 20 years).
Fighting - after Hatcher broke his tibia, Roenick lost his mind. Any open ice hit against a Blackhawk would ignite a fight with Roenick. I recall him in fights after open ice hits to Amonte and IIRC Cam Russell (who didn't need anybody standing up for him).
Defense - I found him a little frustrating after extended viewing. IMO, it seemed like he'd be all over a "Doug Gilmour" and then would just watch a "Bill Berg" cruise in on a breakaway instead of doing something about it.

The fact that Roenick and Turgeon have 1200+ and 1300+ pts respectively and aren't in the HHOF is one of hockey's greatest mysteries. Mike Modano is in and he has 1374. Does he get special treatment because he's American? Is there any American player that has more points than Roenick and fewer than Modano?

Modano was the franchise player of a Stanley Cup winner, one of the best 2 way players in the league and had better longevity post-lockout. Modano was also a bit more of a star than they were during the DPE.

Roenick and Turgeon probably compare a little more favourably to Recchi and Shanahan. They put up good, but not elite numbers from 95-04 like the two others. The differences here though are that they were multi-cup winners as complimentary pieces and had better longevity after the lockout.

Yes. I was talking about Modano having roughly 50 more points than Turgeon. Why does Modano get in and Turgeon doesn't?
Also I was wondering if Roenick is 2nd on the All-Time American-born scoring list.

Turgeon was always seen as a hollow offensive player who brought nothing outside points to the table. During his prime, teams regularly identified him as a problem holding the team back from becoming a winner and traded him for players with stronger intangible qualities (ie: Muller, Corson).

Additionally, he missed 20 games a season in a 6 year stretch between 27-33 yo. That's a 3rd of his career and right in the middle of his prime. It's difficult to create a legacy when you're on the shelf.

That "face of a franchise" aspect is meaningful, to me, when looking at potential Hall of Famers. That's one reason (not the only reason) that guys like Mats Sundin and probably Alfredsson are clear Hall of Famers to me, whereas guys like Roenick and Lecavalier are not.

To be fair, Roenick had kind of bad-luck in terms of his profile. His youthful scoring peak was on an "O6" franchise that was peaking at the time, and then he sort of played out the rest of his prime in obscurity in Phoenix. And by the time he got to Philly he had maybe lost a step, and put in only three years there. It creates this collective memory that he crashed and burned quickly from his young days in Chicago, but really the "Phoenix obscurity" + "Dead-puck era" kind of did the job for him.

All the same, he was not (to my memory) ever the "face of a franchise" after about 1996 at the latest, when he was just 26 (and in '95 and '96 he missed some games and was outscored by old-men like Nicholls and Chelios).

I don't think we still would have thought of him as a franchise player after 1996 even if he'd stayed on the Hawks. They would've gotten somebody better than him to lead the team or he would have been leading a bad team. Basically, how things worked out for another center with a fairly similar career: Eric Staal.

Not even 90-91 to 93-94 ?

#3 in goal with 190, only Hull& Robitaille were ahead during that time frame, #6 in point those 4 season with 411 points ahead of Sakic & Gilmour

He was also 8th in GPG and T-12th in PPG. If you add in 1995, he moves up to 11th and 7th.
The problem is that he doesn't have any other stretch like this in his career (he'll be around 25th PPG or later in other 5 year stretches). Those other players you listed have multiple periods of sustained elite play.

 

[Big Phil]

He was a game breaker who would lay bone crushing hits, fight and generally play good defense.

Beyond scoring lots of goals off breakaways and odd man rushes, he scored quite a few on the PP beside the left side of the net off of passes from Chelios on the right point (passes that would have been impossible for the past 20 years).
Fighting - after Hatcher broke his tibia, Roenick lost his mind. Any open ice hit against a Blackhawk would ignite a fight with Roenick. I recall him in fights after open ice hits to Amonte and IIRC Cam Russell (who didn't need anybody standing up for him).
Defense - I found him a little frustrating after extended viewing. IMO, it seemed like he'd be all over a "Doug Gilmour" and then would just watch a "Bill Berg" cruise in on a breakaway instead of doing something about it.

Yes, he could hit very well too. One of the hardest hits I ever saw was Roenick laying out little known Maple Leaf Ken McRae. I think it was the 1994 playoffs. The clip is the first one you see in this video.............just thunderous.


I am also trying to picture that power play goal you are talking about with Chelios. What plays or passes are you talking about that are impossible today? Because it sounds pretty standard the way you described it.

 

[BobbyAwe]

He was twice as good as Dickie Duff so, yeah, HOF. The Hall screwed up by allowing some in that didn't deserve it, but now it will be even worse if they revert back to a standard higher and exclude others that were better than those who squeaked in but shouldn't have.

 

[HawkNut]

Just because someone gets 500 goals, does it mean that he's a HOF'er. The last 5 years of his career, he was beyond brutal. Never any sort of post season hardware, as the best he ever did was a 5th place HART vote and 4th place AS vote. Was never considered a top 10 player in the game either. Turgeon was another player like Roenick and he even has a worse post season nominations then Roenick. No way they should be in the HOF.

In my opinion, yes. If they get 500 goals, they should be in. A lack of hardware doesn't take away that milestone even with his decline.

Some people didn't make All Star teams, which are important, but the numbers are there that tell me they should be in.

 

[Hobnobs]

He was twice as good as Dickie Duff so, yeah, HOF. The Hall screwed up by allowing some in that didn't deserve it, but now it will be even worse if they revert back to a standard higher and exclude others that were better than those who squeaked in but shouldn't have.

Duff shouldnt be in the hall and neither should Roenick. Roenick would be a worse inductee than Dino and slightly above Andreychuk.

 

[trentmccleary]

I am also trying to picture that power play goal you are talking about with Chelios. What plays or passes are you talking about that are impossible today? Because it sounds pretty standard the way you described it.

I think what we're used to seeing is right point to left face-off dot or to the top of the face-off circle.
The kind of plays I'm thinking of between Roenick and Chelios were basically right point to left goal line. Or between the goal line and bottom of the face-off circle. It's a long pass, with a high likelihood of having two checkers in the path of the pass.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

roenick had “it,” for lack of a better word. i’ll admit that i have no memory of ever watching him as a coyote, but in philly even when he wasn’t a top 10 scorer anymore, that was a guy you had an eye on if he was playing your team, and if it was a close game you were afraid of him being the difference maker.

for example, that goal against toronto in the playoffs after kapanen got rocked? wasn’t surprised in the least. i remember watching that and thinking, yup roenick being roenick. keith primeau morphing himself into messier? very surprised.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

As a Hawk fan before, during and after Roenick, I always wished we had Modano.

Wow this is a strong statement! If it's cool to ask (and not steal the OP's "thunder" of course), why did you wish you had Modano?

 

[Danny46]

Okay, as a colourful guy he was golden. He was hard to hate. Even as a Leaf fan we saw him a lot in Chicago being a division rival. You couldn't hate the guy. There are some players in sports history that irritate you no matter what. Sean Avery, although he was never good, annoyed me. He wasn't colourful he was a disgrace to the game. Terrell Owens annoyed me to no end in the NFL. Barry Bonds in baseball. The last two, great players for sure, no one can deny this but you hated their attitudes. Roenick was cocky but was more fun loving like someone such as David Ortiz. You couldn't hate the guy because he was funny. Probably because you wanted him on your team and he always came across as a team guy. Maybe that was the issue I had with guys like Avery, Bonds and Owens (did I put all three of them in the same sentence?) they never seemed like team guys. Roenick was funny, he seemed natural. Who else moonwalks during a TV time out?

So for that, I miss him. I wish more players had that fun loving light heartedness about them that made the game more entertaining.

I complety agree, that's what I loved about Roenick, he was having fun, the 3 guys you mention they are in love with themselves...

 

[HawkNut]

Dick Duff shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Leo Boivin shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Bernie Federko shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

I'd gladly take those three out and put the likes of Roenick and Turgeon in there.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Wow this is a strong statement! If it's cool to ask (and not steal the OP's "thunder" of course), why did you wish you had Modano?

I always thought Modan was the smoother more skilled player and I didn't like Roenick's off ice style either. Seemed to have a chip on his shoulder IMO.

 

[Danny46]

Modano career overall was better, but before the injury Roenick was better than Modano...

 

[BobbyAwe]

Duff shouldnt be in the hall and neither should Roenick. Roenick would be a worse inductee than Dino and slightly above Andreychuk.

Okay, but is it fair to Roenick and some others on his level to be left out NOW that Duff and some other highly questionable choices are in? Seems they should be consistent, even if that means lowering the bar a little - since they have ALREADY lowered the bar in truth with inductee's like Duff?

The requirements for induction are...

Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general. The problem is that's extremely subjective in nature. The only solution is to at least be CONSISTENT.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Hobnobs]

Okay, but is it fair to Roenick and some others on his level to be left out NOW that Duff and some other highly questionable choices are in? Seems they should be consistent, even if that means lowering the bar a little - since they have ALREADY lowered the bar in truth with inductee's like Duff?

The requirements for induction are...

Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general. The problem is that's extremely subjective in nature. The only solution is to at least be CONSISTENT.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The problem with HoF is that it doesnt know if it wants to be Hall of FAME or ELITE. And it varies depending who sits in the commitee. Also life isnt fair. Duff got in even though he shouldnt. Roenick isnt in and he shouldnt be in. Two wrongs doesnt make a right.

 

[HawkNut]

To me, a Hall of Famer has to have something.

Dick Duff was a mistake because he never had anything.

There are different ways I look at somebody if they should be in the Hall of Fame:

Awards
All Star Teams
Numbers

Roenick doesn't have the first two, but he does have the numbers, therefore, I would put him in.

Dick Duff doesn't have anything. Neither do Boivin or Federko, but at least Boivin and Federko got consideration for honors.

Duff not only never got anything, he never got considered for anything.

Clark Gillies was at least a first team All Star in back-to-back years.

So, Duff shouldn't be used as a litmus test. If you use Dick Duff, you could induct Claude Provost, who I'm not crazy about.

Anyway, I think Roenick belongs, with or without Duff enshrined.

 

[Big Phil]

I complety agree, that's what I loved about Roenick, he was having fun, the 3 guys you mention they are in love with themselves...

There is something about Roenick that was good for the game. The Carolina Hurricanes doing those celebrations after the game today? It is a matter of taste, but it seems too "forced" and "bush league" for me. They can do it if they want, after all what else can you look forward to as a Hurricane fan? However, there is always that feeling of things being amateurish. I don't think Roenick had this. Like I said, the David Ortiz comparison is close. Had fun off the ice but was all business on it, yet never took himself too seriously.

Dick Duff shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Leo Boivin shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Bernie Federko shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

I'd gladly take those three out and put the likes of Roenick and Turgeon in there.

I don't know if Roenick ought to be in there though because of this, and we should probably stop acting as if Turgeon was this lost and forgotten elite player in yesteryear. He was what he was. A guy who could score a lot but whose teams were never a threat and if anything weakness was that Turgeon wasn't going to carry them far.

Modano career overall was better, but before the injury Roenick was better than Modano...

This is true. If this is 1994 everyone is taking Roenick, no questions. Overall the career goes to Modano because he thrived more in the dead puck era and lasted longer as a good player but Roenick had better seasons and more flair in 1994. You definitely take him over Modano then.

 

[wetcoast]

Skilled player. Maybe should have been able to make a little more out of his talent than he did. A major injury hurt his cause.

Not a good analyst...also not his job, he's just there to stir the pot, but he does so hamhandedly...doesn't have a great feel for the game itself, but like Don Cherry, does hit on some interesting points from time to time despite obviously not having a great mind for the tactical nuance of the game or the evaluation of players on the whole...

The part in bold is very important as he was trending well into a HHOF career as a player.

As an analyst he is okay but my view is tainted as I have to listen to John Garrett all too often.

I often wonder if both he and Barry Pederson hadn't been injured how they would have compared career wise.

 

[The Panther]

I have to listen to John Garrett all too often.

Wait... Garrett is still working...??