Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

Discussion in 'New York Rangers' started by ZiGOODejad, Dec 19, 2015.

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  1. Phoicon

    Phoicon Take these broken wings and learn to fly again.

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    To be fair, Spooner is a bit better than Nash. We are replacing McD with a full season of Shattenkirk and Chytil could be just as good as Grabner.

    I also think we are replacing Nash with Kovalchuk. I am not the biggest fan of late-career Nash so I don´t think the forwards will be much worse.

    I think we are really missing two two-way defensemen. I haven´t seen anyone come up with a solution to that other than drafting two or three.

    Goalies are question marks for most NHL teams looking forward 2-3 years, including cup contenders. It´s just a new feeling and approach for us.
     
  2. Beacon

    Beacon Embrace the tank

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    You're right about Kovalchuk.

    So Kovalchuk is a little worse than Nash.
    Spooner worse than Grabs.
    One rookie (Lias or Chytil) is hopefully an upgrade on Desharnais.
    Pionk is about the same as Holden since he can be better or have a setback (sophomore slump or whatever)
    If Shatty plays all year, that's 30-35 more games, but there would be 49 games fewer by McDonagh, so more games by a better player lost.

    Up front it's about even, but would be a downgrade if neither Lias nor Chytil has a strong year.
    On the blue line, it's a big downgrade.

    Even if it all works out, we are no better than last year. Best case scenario is that we squeeze into the playoffs and then get embarrassed there in 4-5 games. The most realistic scenario, however, is that we don't come close to making the playoffs. Trade Zuccarello in the summer, trade Staal at the TDL when he has value due to only 2 years left (3 playoff runs). Tampa has Kunitz come off the cap. MZA at 50% is only slightly more than Kunitz. Maybe they would send us Raddysh and Foote for MZA at 50%.
     
  3. GAGLine

    GAGLine Registered User Sponsor

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    That isn't even remotely true. Spooner is a very 1-dimensional player. Don't let a good string of games fool you into thinking he's better than he is. He had 13 points in his first 8 games with us. He had 3 points in his final 12 games.

    Nash is much better defensively. Offensively, even if he isn't scoring, he is still someone the other team has to account for.
     
  4. NYR

    NYR Registered User

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    Spooner couldn't even be a hair on Nash's ass LOL
     
  5. NYRKING30

    NYRKING30 Registered User

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    Spooner better then Nash?? Wow. I hate Nash btw. Thats just stilly.
     
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  6. jas

    jas Unsatisfied

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    So, essentially the Rangers remain a non-playoff team.
     
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  7. Dactyl

    Dactyl Registered User

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    Probably, but this year’s roster was nowhere near as bad as their record. A coach who doesn’t make everything he touches worse could have gotten more out of this team.
     
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  8. jas

    jas Unsatisfied

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    If not for the goaltending, they could have been even worse. The GM saw that. They’ll still be expected to miss the playoffs next year.
     
  9. Dactyl

    Dactyl Registered User

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    Oh I agree. Hank and Geogiev were great. I just think a lot of the defensive issues are exacerbated by the coach.
     
  10. Off Sides

    Off Sides Registered User

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    I think the process of trying to make the playoffs will be contradictory towards rebuilding.

    I think this off-season they are likely to sign some UFAs, which is fine if the idea is to shelter and support what is coming up. However coaches usually turn that into trying to win so the vets end up being used in almost all the important situations. That to me is not really sheltering, it's playing to win but how does that help develop the kids if they are not getting that on ice experience.

    Once that turns to winning, and maybe making the playoffs, management has choices to make. Like we discussed above, are they really not going to try to help the team/Lundqvist be as good as they can be at that point? If that includes renting that goes against "rebuilding"

    If they do rent, even if say they sell off some of those before signed players or some of their own to regain some picks, like how they turned Brassard into Zbad plus a 2nd only to use that 2nd and a 3rd to trade for Smith, that is not really rebuilding as they lost one of their own picks and as it turns out a pretty coveted 2nd round pick they received from Ottawa.

    So onto the following season, the youth maybe some of them did get used enough to gain some good experience, yet some of those vets are still there, or newly imported ones are brought in yet again. They expect to get playing time. For example if Kovalchuk is still there should they sign him, is he going to be happy about not getting power play time should one of the kids need it in order to develop?

    Rinse repeat the deadline moves should they be in position, and how many picks did they lose?

    Where does that leave the Rangers after two season from now? With some kids who came up yet are still playing behind vets, likely for two reasons, they are kids and they were not drafted at the top of their classes so they are likely lesser talents, it leaves the Rangers with some vets who are still enjoying their playing time, but overall is that team a Cup contender or building towards it? They did not get any top of the draft class prospects as they were making the playoffs, they still have mostly a team full of players who are good but not really good. And the whole time they lessened their chances of getting draft lucky by doing the rental thing. (we hear that every year too, it's only a 2nd or 3rd rounder)

    Now I am not trying to say everything goes as such, we do not know that yet, but from what I am hearing Gorton say, from what the team has currently, stuff they did not sell and stuff they brought in, some of the prospects who are likely to move up, what they have in cap space, it sure looks like to me that will be the basic outline.

    Something along the lines of being pretty good, hope they can find some gems later on in the draft, and in the best case scenario they end up with something like the current Bruins, or even the past Rangers, yet they still end up continually having to bring in the next UFA, and it leaves them as sort of what they already were, a good team that in the playoffs would need everything to go right for them to have a Cinderella shot at winning a Cup. In the lesser good scenarios, they miss on some drafts, they make poor player evaluations, and they end up something like the Rangers from this past season.

    The chances of them attaining really top notch players by trying to be good, winning, are just not very good. They can make the playoffs, half the teams pretty much do, but to win 4 series in a row against teams who have those top notch skaters? I just don't see that happening unless they themselves have some top notch skaters.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
  11. Irishguy42

    Irishguy42 Registered User Sponsor

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    The process of rebuilding and being competitive/make playoffs isn't contradicting or mutually exclusive.

    It's good for rebuilding teams to be competitive, and then if they make the playoffs, then that's just icing on the cake.

    If management doesn't make the moves to at least make the team competitive during a rebuild, you look like Buffalo. The opposite of that is looking like the Leafs, or even Arizona.

    What is more important is fans/management understanding that just because the team makes the playoffs/is going to be in the playoff race doesn't necessarily mean the rebuild is complete.

    Also, the phrase "being competitive" does not just mean "we're going for the Cup."
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  12. SingnBluesOnBroadway

    SingnBluesOnBroadway Retired

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    Finally got around to listening to his two interviews and I have to admit that I liked what I heard. He seems to have a plan and the foresight to see what his team really was/is.

    JG did what we've all wanted the FO to do with this team: be realistic. Make moves that will give the chance the best chance to win—even if that winning won't be right now. Create a plan and them make moves that fit into that plan—meaning making decisions with you head, not your heart.

    I have long felt that this team lacked an identity. It seems like JG has an idea about what he wants the Rangers to be.

    I'm excited to see it come to life.
     
  13. True Blue

    True Blue Registered User

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    Could not say it any better. Does not mean that I will like everything (like Miller not being here). Does not mean that his moves will not be open to criticism (Staal trade). But for the first time in a very long time, I feel like the FO has a clear view of what they are looking to do. Renney, Torts, AV.....they all had their visions of how the team should be constructed and play. But now the vision comes from senior management. And the next coach will be one who shares the same vision.

    This team has slowly lost it's identity ever since Torts was fired. Every year, the team became more and more bland.
     
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  14. SingnBluesOnBroadway

    SingnBluesOnBroadway Retired

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    I have to think Miller was an addition by subtraction move.
     
  15. Off Sides

    Off Sides Registered User

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    That is all well and fine, but there are not many examples of teams who went that direction under the salary cap and won a Cup, about as close as one can find is Boston and even they had Seguin, albeit he was not the driving force. LA also has some of that but they did actually draft pretty early in the years leading up to their runs.
     
  16. Phoicon

    Phoicon Take these broken wings and learn to fly again.

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    Basically, yes. But you never know.
     
  17. True Blue

    True Blue Registered User

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    How so? Is the thought that he was a problem in the locker room?
     
  18. SingnBluesOnBroadway

    SingnBluesOnBroadway Retired

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    My best guess. On the surface, he appears to be the kind of player they would be want to keep and move forward with.
     
  19. True Blue

    True Blue Registered User

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    Which is the truly puzzling part to me. I just do not get his inclusion in the trade. One would hope that it had nothing to do with AV, as Gorton had to know where he was coming down on as far as AV's future goes.
     
  20. jas

    jas Unsatisfied

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    Maloney said during one of the broadcasts that from what he knew, management didn’t want him around some of the younger players.
     
  21. GeorgeKaplan

    GeorgeKaplan Registered User

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    They want a team build around players with skill, speed, and character. Miller’s got decent speed and skill, but he’s always been a guy who’s attitude has been question (even going back to his first training camp) and then in a contract year he goes out and dogs it because he’s not happy with the coach. Doesn’t sound like a guy you want the next core group of players coming up to learn from or look up to, or even reward with a big new contract
     
  22. True Blue

    True Blue Registered User

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    Don't get me wrong, it is not like I do not believe you guys. I just find it surprising to trade such a young player who was building on each year. And played, when AV allowed, with a dimension that others on the team did not. Head scratching to me.
     
  23. jas

    jas Unsatisfied

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    I wasn’t fan of Miller being in the deal. If they were moving him, I would have it to be a separate deal. His presence in the deal would be more tolerable if the conditional pick was a firm #1.

    But, I think it’s clear that Gorton didn’t see Miller as a piece to keep as he’s rebuilding.
     
  24. Siddi

    Siddi Rangers Masochist

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    Yeah, I still can't wrap my head around the Miller trade. I even believed that he was moved on AV's request which meant he was coming back to coach next season but since that is proven not to be the case I just don't know. Even if he was "dogging" it, he could have easily ended up being our top scorer for the season and he spent nearly all the season playing 3rd line minutes. Zucc ended the season with 53 points, Miller had 43 points when he was traded.

    I have heard posters mention that he was locker room cancer but those claims are from posters with negative bias towards him so can't be taken seriously.

    Puzzling indeed.
     
  25. Irishguy42

    Irishguy42 Registered User Sponsor

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    It's just going to be one of those things that we, unfortunately, will probably never learn more about.
     
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