Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Chainshot]

It doesn’t matter if the defensive depth that you allow your coach to play every night are measurably bad at hockey. There isn’t much difference between having somebody like Tennyson in the lineup compared to having the three musketeers of stupid patrolling the blue line every night, often paired together.

 

[Dubi Doo]

It doesn’t matter if the defensive depth that you allow your coach to play every night are measurably bad at hockey. There isn’t much difference between having somebody like Tennyson in the lineup compared to having the three musketeers of stupid patrolling the blue line every night, often paired together.

I cannot believe we still play Risto, McCabe, and Bogo every night when they're all healthy. That should've been done with two years ago. It's so blatantly obvious.


Also, I have no faith in Krueger at this point. Zero. Botts makes it tough on any coach, but to play Risto and McCabe as much as he does while also being so hesitant to break up the top-line, and never having the creativity to try Reinhart at center once the injury bug hit...yeah, Krueger can f*** right off with Botts. Whipe the house clean.

Thank god there's football today. At least Pegula got one hire right when he inked Brandon Beane.

 

[Chainshot]

I cannot believe we still play Risto, McCabe, and Bogo every night when they're all healthy. That should've been done with two years ago. It's so blatantly obvious.


Also, I have no faith in Krueger at this point. Zero. Botts makes it tough on any coach, but to play Risto and McCabe as much as he does while also being so hesitant to break up the top-line, and never having the creativity to try Reinhart at center once the injury bug hit...yeah, Krueger can **** right off with Botts. Whipe the house clean.

Thank god there's football today. At least Pegula got one hire right when he inked Brandon Beane.

I wish at times I was still a bills fan. But I’m not. That ship sailed.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I wish at times I was still a bills fan. But I’m not. That ship sailed.

The ship's still at the dock, homie! I Would love to talk sports with you about an up and coming young team with a GM who has a clear vision and is cap-savvy.

 

[Chainshot]

The ship's still at the dock, homie! I Would love to talk sports with you about an up and coming young team with a GM who has a clear vision and is cap-savvy.

Wilson killed me off as a Bills’ fan along time ago.

 

[CrazyPsycho]

I wish at times I was still a bills fan. But I’m not. That ship sailed.

Its weird but they are the polar oppisite of the Sabres, constantly self evaluating and adjusting their philosphies, always looking for minor upgrades. Player development! Drafting! Cap space! Never thought it would be the Bills that would look like the well oiled machine

 

[valet]

didn’t stop the organization from firing Murray. It shouldn’t stop them now.

I think that's fair, and really can't blame anyone for wanting Botts gone now. Just figured I'd share my opinion as it stands.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

 

[Chainshot]

Its weird but they are the polar oppisite of the Sabres, constantly self evaluating and adjusting their philosphies, always looking for minor upgrades. Player development! Drafting! Cap space! Never thought it would be the Bills that would look like the well oiled machine

My son pointed out that the NHL has more coaches and managers who are former players than any other pro league. There is such a close mindedness to the hockey community. It actually starts really young with players, if you’re not a favorite of a particular coach in a youth league you may never move past that. Small groups of people make all the decisions all the time and everyone is used to that. Conventional wisdom is always the fallback when it comes to everything. At least in regards to how this team is operated under the current regime, it doesn’t seem like they can evaluate players at a pro level. And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League’s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know-how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League‘s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of future NHL success.

I suspect that the Sabres front office talks to one another all day. And I think that they think they know better. The sixth round trade a few years ago? The comments about trading up in the late rounds in the last draft? That all points to hubris. Their lack of even acknowledging how horrible their primary defenseman are? The lack of quality goaltending? Their inability to identify and acquire players who have high shot volumes from in front of the net AND then play them so?

I’ve rarely seen an organization this regularly inept.

 

[MagnumForce2]

Its weird but they are the polar oppisite of the Sabres, constantly self evaluating and adjusting their philosphies, always looking for minor upgrades. Player development! Drafting! Cap space! Never thought it would be the Bills that would look like the well oiled machine

The players are very likable also... they work hard and have each other’s backs.

 

[Fezzy126]

My son pointed out that the NHL has more coaches and managers who are former players than any other pro league. There is such a close mindedness to the hockey community. It actually starts really young with players, if you’re not a favorite of a particular coach in a youth league you may never move past that. Small groups of people make all the decisions all the time and everyone is used to that. Conventional wisdom is always the fallback when it comes to everything. At least in regards to how this team is operated under the current regime, it doesn’t seem like they can evaluate players at a pro level. And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League’s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know-how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League‘s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of future NHL success.

I suspect that the Sabres front office talks to one another all day. And I think that they think they know better. The sixth round trade a few years ago? The comments about trading up in the late rounds in the last draft? That all points to hubris. Their lack of even acknowledging how horrible their primary defenseman are? The lack of quality goaltending? Their inability to identify and acquire players who have high shot volumes from in front of the net AND then play them so?

I’ve rarely seen an organization this regularly inept.

I saw this tweet circulating around a few weeks ago, made me chuckle:



There's a book from Chris Brown about Football, and it repeatedly beats the phrase "barriers to entry" when discussing the old and tired ways of thinking in the NFL. It basically echoes your thoughts above on the NHL, it's an old boys club and there are barriers in place that prevent young and innovative minds (guys that didn't necessarily play hockey) from coming up through the ranks. We've seen the NFL slowly give way to some of those barriers, and I think we're on the verge of seeing the same thing in hockey with guys like Chakya and Dubas becoming GMs. Eventually we'll catch up, it's just a little depressing that we aren't on the cutting edge. But I can tell you one thing, we are far from the only incompetently run organization, half the league is run by an outdated way of thinking. We just started at a place that was waaaaayyyyyy behind the rest of the league, so trying to catch up to the Tampas & Bostons of the world seems like an impossible task at the moment.

 

[joshjull]

I’ve given Botts more slack than most. But his ability to negate his own good ideas with his bad ones is amazing to behold.

Good. Find a gem overseas in Pilut. Acclimate him to NA game in AHL. It goes fantastic (AHL all star). Should be contributor in NHL.

Now negate that with Phil Housley. Who so thoroughly destroys Pilut’s confidence he’s a shell of himself upon returning to AHL later that year.

Good. Rebuilding the organization’s defensive group to have the pieces needed for a good defense.

Negated by not moving out the deadweight on defense to allow those pieces (acquired and already in house) to replace them for a better NHL defense.

Another good/negated that ties into the defensive accumulation

Good. Acquiring more than enough assets on defense to make trades to bolster the forwards.

Negated by Botts being too timid and overly cautious to make any moves.


Botts consistently defeats himself.

 

[sabrebuild]

I saw this tweet circulating around a few weeks ago, made me chuckle:



There's a book from Chris Brown about Football, and it repeatedly beats the phrase "barriers to entry" when discussing the old and tired ways of thinking in the NFL. It basically echoes your thoughts above on the NHL, it's an old boys club and there are barriers in place that prevent young and innovative minds (guys that didn't necessarily play hockey) from coming up through the ranks. We've seen the NFL slowly give way to some of those barriers, and I think we're on the verge of seeing the same thing in hockey with guys like Chakya and Dubas becoming GMs. Eventually we'll catch up, it's just a little depressing that we aren't on the cutting edge. But I can tell you one thing, we are far from the only incompetently run organization, half the league is run by an outdated way of thinking. We just started at a place that was waaaaayyyyyy behind the rest of the league, so trying to catch up to the Tampas & Bostons of the world seems like an impossible task at the moment.

So much this.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I’ve given Botts more slack than most. But his ability to negate his own good ideas with his bad ones is amazing to behold.

Good. Find a gem overseas in Pilut. Acclimate him to NA game in AHL. It goes fantastic (AHL all star). Should be contributor in NHL.

Now negate that with Phil Housley. Who so thoroughly destroys Pilut’s confidence he’s a shell of himself upon returning to AHL later that year.

Good. Rebuilding the organization’s defensive group to have the pieces needed for a good defense.

Negated by not moving out the deadweight on defense to allow those pieces (acquired and already in house) to replace them for a better NHL defense.

Another good/negated that ties into the defensive accumulation

Good. Acquiring more than enough assets on defense to make trades to bolster the forwards.

Negated by Botts being too timid and overly cautious to make any moves.


Botts consistently defeats himself.

Is he waiting on Pilut to get his confidence up after returning from injury? Maybe.

Is he not moving out D-men yet because the interest or the price isn't right yet? Maybe.

Is Krueger giving input on players that causes Botterill to wait longer? Maybe.

It's like criticizing the GM for trades that never happen, but you just assume they probably can happen except your GM is refusing for some reason. I want to get critical also, but I'm not in a position to know why those moves haven't happened yet. There's enough possible legitimate reasons that I just sit and wait until the TDL. By then there has to be another GM that was willing to offer a mid rd pick for Scandella, Bogosian, Nelson, etc. If the TDL comes and goes with no action like TM's last year, then Botterill failed at some point along the way.

 

[truthbluth]

Jason Botterill is the Dick Jauron of hockey GMs don’t @ me.

 

[Sabre the Win]

That would be *checks notes* Alexander Nylander, Rasmus Asplund, and Brian Gionta? Maybe his UDFA collection: Nelson, ERod, Cal O' Antipin, Antipin classic? I'm not saying Botts has brought in bruisers. He's drafted Mitts, Dahlin and Cozens. But it feels like creating a narrative that didn't exist to suggest Murray actually was building this tough team and just wasn't given enough time.

It wasn't a narrative, it was openly said he wanted to build a team in the mold of the heavy Kings when he first arrived.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I remember rooting for losses to have a shot at McEich. Now I want losses solely to get this jabroni fired.

 

[Dubi Doo]

I’ve given Botts more slack than most. But his ability to negate his own good ideas with his bad ones is amazing to behold.

Good. Find a gem overseas in Pilut. Acclimate him to NA game in AHL. It goes fantastic (AHL all star). Should be contributor in NHL.

Now negate that with Phil Housley. Who so thoroughly destroys Pilut’s confidence he’s a shell of himself upon returning to AHL later that year.

Good. Rebuilding the organization’s defensive group to have the pieces needed for a good defense.

Negated by not moving out the deadweight on defense to allow those pieces (acquired and already in house) to replace them for a better NHL defense.

Another good/negated that ties into the defensive accumulation

Good. Acquiring more than enough assets on defense to make trades to bolster the forwards.

Negated by Botts being too timid and overly cautious to make any moves.


Botts consistently defeats himself.

All that seemingly good he did for the defense, and yet we still have Risto, McCabe, and Bogo playing regular minutes. Also, Risto is still being leaned on go heavily, and now McCabe is also playing top-pairing minutes. The coaching staff and management are so out of touch with reality

 

[hizzoner]

My son pointed out that the NHL has more coaches and managers who are former players than any other pro league. There is such a close mindedness to the hockey community. It actually starts really young with players, if you’re not a favorite of a particular coach in a youth league you may never move past that. Small groups of people make all the decisions all the time and everyone is used to that. Conventional wisdom is always the fallback when it comes to everything. At least in regards to how this team is operated under the current regime, it doesn’t seem like they can evaluate players at a pro level. And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League’s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of And their philosophy about draft picks flies in the face of the recent work done by those with the time, know-how, and effort to show having more pics in the later rounds statistically works better than having fewer. But hey, that would also be like pointing out success at generating primary points in Junior League‘s in North America or in appearing in games in your draft year in the SHL or Liga is a great indicator of future NHL success.

I suspect that the Sabres front office talks to one another all day. And I think that they think they know better. The sixth round trade a few years ago? The comments about trading up in the late rounds in the last draft? That all points to hubris. Their lack of even acknowledging how horrible their primary defenseman are? The lack of quality goaltending? Their inability to identify and acquire players who have high shot volumes from in front of the net AND then play them so?

I’ve rarely seen an organization this regularly inept.

A group of self identified hockey "experts" after sitting around a table telling war stories of the old days then decide to draft the new age players. This group of old hacks then pool their ignorance leading to a bigger pool of ignorance. I think that is what you said? If so I agree in the main.

 

[Chainshot]

A group of self identified hockey "experts" after sitting around a table telling war stories of the old days then decide to draft the new age players. This group of old hacks then pool their ignorance leading to a bigger pool of ignorance. I think that is what you said? If so I agree in the main.

Basically.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

It actually starts really young with players, if you’re not a favorite of a particular coach in a youth league you may never move past that.

My God.... that is so undeniably true!!!

Your playing pedigree supersedes just about everything else these days.

Remember that Gordie Howe's nickname was "dough-head"? In today's NHL he'd likely be a GM.......

Or head of DOPS!

Wayne Gretzky....... total flame out as a coach, GM and NHL Exec....

 

[Chainshot]

My God.... that is so undeniably true!!!

Your playing pedigree supersedes just about everything else these days.

Remember that Gordie Howe's nickname was "dough-head"? In today's NHL he'd likely be a GM.......

Or head of DOPS!

Wayne Gretzky....... total flame out as a coach, GM and NHL Exec....

One of the things that I do remember someone talking about was how journeyman players made better executives, scouts, coaches because they actually had to think about the game. This was in comparison to the naturally gifted like Bert who when asked how he did something would shrug and say, “I don’t know I just do it.”

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Wilson killed me off as a Bills’ fan along time ago.

You mean your not going to visit his statue and shake it's hand ? Yes, us oldies remember all the crap we had to put up with from him and a statue, a park, or philanthropy will never change that.

 

[Chainshot]

You mean your not going to visit his statue and shake it's hand ? Yes, us oldies remember all the crap we had to put up with from him and a statue, a park, or philanthropy will never change that.

Would you believe I am still miffed about Rashad’s contract and Ralph buying the racehorse?

 

[sabrebuild]

One of the things that I do remember someone talking about was how journeyman players made better executives, scouts, coaches because they actually had to think about the game. This was in comparison to the naturally gifted like Bert who when asked how he did something would shrug and say, “I don’t know I just do it.”

The grinder mentality always seemed logical to me as well. But I usually go back to the math.

To be even a regular pro athlete you had to genetically and environmentally hit the perfect mix to have a shot. Further you needed to dedicate a huge amount of your time to physical training. And then finally, most pro's will have undeniably suffered at least a few concussions or traumas by the nature of playing a violent sport from 5 to 25, even if they had a short career.

Now consider the tiny population of guys who have the talent and desire to even get to juniors, then subtract a ton of people from that group who burn out or have much better opportunities profesionally outside of hockey than grinding for twenty years to maybe be an assistant gm in Saskatoon.

Its unbelievable really. The average gm in this league wouldn't be qualified to run a medium sized Applebee's franchise, but these knuckle heads are expected to functionally handle tens of millions of dollar contracts, multi year planning, on top of managing 50-100 staff that are in your building doing non-hockey stuff.

As much crap as Dubas gets because he's young and they are the leafs, he probably has a great chance to be decent compared to most gm's because all he has done since his very early twenties was think about building teams and being aware of the new ways to tjink about the game.

He still might not be any good, but at least he comes from a larger pool of talent.

There is probably a dozen 35 year old former high school players who are now lawyers or accountants or finance people who would be great gm's, but will never even get a sniff.

Darryl Morey, Houston Rockets is a super interesting guy in the nba for the out of the box type of team management.

 

[Buffaloed]

Terry Pegula: Things seems to be going better with the roster building. Is there a new plan?
Jason Botterill: I put it in the hands of God.
Terry Pegula: Oh I like that. I'm sure Kim will too. Can never have too much God.
Jason Botterill: so far He has only made one mistake. That was the Dahlin injury.
Terry Pegula: Can He do anything to get Pilut back up here? Our powerplay is killing us.
Jason Botterill: not until people stop calling him Pontius Pilut