Confirmed with Link: James "Stealth Tumor" Neal traded for Jesus Hornqvist, Nick Spaling - Part 2

[KIRK]

Very well thought out post. I couldn't agree more. We did not have to make that move yesterday. It appears to have been made in haste.

When was the deadline to make that move? Was there a deadline?

And, let's say there wasn't, and the Pens go into next year, poster child for arrogance on a team with a new coach, a new system, and desperate for a new attitude. Let's say Neal doesn't get with the program. What then?

You trade him then? For what? And, what is the consequence for what MJ and Tocchet will be trying to do.

Only time will tell if this deal is right, but you people, thinking this was some situation in a bubble like a NHL '14 proposal are ignoring the type of hard choices two years too many of Shero doubling down on the same old **** made necessary.

 

[deakka]

The fact we didnt get a 2nd doesnt botter me so much. I bet the chances a 2nd rounder pan out are pretty slim. I just wish the "other" piece was a bit better than Spalling.

 

[Tender Rip]

Now, tell me what part of that is rationalizing anything.

All of it .

 

[KIRK]

You're making too much sense for me Kirk. I'm questioning myself and my own beliefs now.

I might be too drunk though. I'm going to have to really think this **** through in the morning. I hate Hawaii sometimes...

Not me. The weather.

 

[KIRK]

All of it .

You suck.

So, tell me what you would have done. Kept him? And, what if nothing changed? Do you risk a quarter of the season or more trying to clean up that mess. And, what do you get for it then?

Agree to disagree I suppose. I just see this as triage and the inevitable consequence of two years of hockey malpractice by Shero.

Eh, what the **** am I arguing for you for. It's not like I named my first born after Morehouse of all people.

EDIT: All seriousness, I want to see how we look in October before I cast any significant judgment. And, more than anything, I want to see how all of it plays out in April, May, and June.

 

[Uncle Machete]

Really, **** him. It wasn't about him. And, I still say Neal was a poster child for the arrogance of this organization. There were things that Ray Shero had to do a year ago and really should have done two years ago. If he'd done them, then maybe trading Neal before next year isn't the imperative that it became.

It really is kind of ****** up. People give Shero a pass for getting what he could for Staal because he (Shero) refused to deal with the situation proactively. People now **** on JR because he got what he could for Neal after Shero had refused for two years to deal a cultural problem proactively.

I'm upset because I think James Neal is a better player than Patric Hornqvist and I think the return was far too little.

But I can't do anything about it so I'm going to stop being upset and hope it works out for everyone. Gotta think about the blood pressure

 

[deakka]

Also, i first thought that a swap of 1st rounders would have evened out the trade a bit. But JR going on record saying we had Kapanen as 7th on our list, there is a good chance that the first 6 players were taken and we would end up with Kapanen at 11 anyway

 

[PKV Jungle Friends]

I'm ecstatic with Hornqvist. I've loved the guy in Nashville for a while, and he's a more complete player than Neal, Kane, or Wheeler. I'd have liked Nashville to add something else, but realistically it doesn't matter. Spaling is a bottom six solution, and Hornqvist is going to be great for us. Losing Neal is a shock to the comfort zone of this team and it's fans, but that's what was needed.

I'm sure people will be very happy come playoff time.

Love where your head is at.

I agree that Horny (yeah, I know) is a more complete player and while he may not have the 40 goal season that Neal had, he's a good bet to be less streaky in his scoring and show up every night

 

[canadianguy77]

I'm upset because I think James Neal is a better player than Patric Hornqvist and I think the return was far too little.

But I can't do anything about it so I'm going to stop being upset and hope it works out for everyone. Gotta think about the blood pressure

As we get older, this becomes a concern.

: Silvio Dante

 

[deakka]

The question is tho. Even if Hornqvist doesnt score as much as Neal, is it possible that Sid/Geno will score more due to Hornqvists vastly different style than Neal?

Thing with Neal is that when Malkin got neutralized Neal coudnt do anything to free up space for Geno. Maybe Hornqvists drive will free up more space for our stars than just floating around wating for that sniping chance

 

[The Tang]

After having a chance to sleep on it, the deal is still nor any good. I get the whole attitude angle but the fact is the team is no better for it and their cap situation is not improve. If spaling is all else Rutherford could get he shouldn't have pulled the trigger. I find it hard to believe a better free agent couldn't be had.

The worst part is, its what you expect from Rutherford

 

[Michael8771*]

When was the deadline to make that move? Was there a deadline?

And, let's say there wasn't, and the Pens go into next year, poster child for arrogance on a team with a new coach, a new system, and desperate for a new attitude. Let's say Neal doesn't get with the program. What then?

You trade him then? For what? And, what is the consequence for what MJ and Tocchet will be trying to do.

Only time will tell if this deal is right, but you people, thinking this was some situation in a bubble like a NHL '14 proposal are ignoring the type of hard choices two years too many of Shero doubling down on the same old **** made necessary.

You yourself admitted we likely could have gotten more, yes? Also, you act as if Neal was a rotten apple that ruined the locker room. Are you sure about that? I know for a fact there were many team mates who liked the guy. I don't think he was this huge distraction as you suggest.

In any case he was a significant asset. And I don't believe we got enough back to warrant this move. We obviously value him differently. And whether you like the guy as a person or not, the question is does he help the team more or hurt it? I'd say he does the former. And just because he may not get along with everyone, that doesn't mean he's ruining the team or the overall chemistry. There's other players who shoulder that responsibility themselves. And relative to their skillset and contributions, their cap hit isn't as friendly. Nor are they playing in an area of weakness (wing). So what do we do? We make Neal a skape goat and TAKE OUR BEST PLAYER AT THAT POSITION and trade him. It's nonsensical when there were other players who have very similar issues.

 

[canadianguy77]

The question is tho. Even if Hornqvist doesnt score as much as Neal, is it possible that Sid/Geno will score more due to Hornqvists vastly different style than Neal?

Thing with Neal is that when Malkin got neutralized Neal coudnt do anything to free up space for Geno. Maybe Hornqvists drive will free up more space for our stars than just floating around wating for that sniping chance

You're right. But let me ask you this. When did 14 become a prima-donna? It's become a culture...it seems. He signed his contract and refused to go to the net. Am I wrong?

 

[KIRK]

You yourself admitted we likely could have gotten more, yes? Also, you act as if Neal was a rotten apple that ruined the locker room. Are you sure about that? I know for a fact there were many team mates who liked the guy. I don't think he was this huge distraction as you suggest.

In any case he was a significant asset. And I don't believe we got enough back to warrant this move. We obviously value him differently. And whether you like the guy as a personal or not, the question is does he help the team more or hurt it? I'd say he does the former. And just because he may not get along with everyone, that doesn't mean he's ruining the team or the overall chemistry. There's other players who shoulder that responsibility themselves. And relative to their skillset and contributions, their cap hit isn't as friendly. Nor are they in an area of weakness (wing). So what do we do? We make Neal a skape goat and TAKE OUR BEST PLAYER AT THAT POSITION and trade him. It's nonsensical when there were other players who have very similar issues.

1. I said I think we could've gotten more but what the more was may not have been worth nixing a deal.

2. Neal was symptomatic of the team's cultural problem, and two years of Shero neglecting to address that problem made a more drastic move necessary. Not as big a problem as Sid, of course, but few have the courage you have to call out that cancer . . .

 

[KIRK]

Love where your head is at.

I agree that Horny (yeah, I know) is a more complete player and while he may not have the 40 goal season that Neal had, he's a good bet to be less streaky in his scoring and show up every night

And the playoffs.

And in a way that helps, rather than leeches off of, Sid and Geno.

 

[Captain Hook]

I didn't want to trade James Neal. I have to admit. I was one that was kind of clinging to the whole 40 goal guy thing while understanding his warts of course. I never denied all that he lacked but I sure did like having that type of sniper in the lineup.

I will say this. When I saw Bylsma on screen as the HC of the Pens last year it just felt so wrong. I know some had wanted him gone for a few years before that but last year it really just felt wrong for him to still be here. I've had that feeling about Neal this summer too. As much as I like him I just had that gut feeling that he's a bad guy to have in that room right now. A few NHL sources have kind of speculated about that too.

You could wait to trade him but to me the most ideal time is the off-season. It gives you a whole season to integrate the new guys you're getting in the deal, as opposed to having a bunch of new guys trying to find chemistry half way through or late in the season. Neal also would have had a NTC kick in next summer and likely would have been able to block deals to a team like Nashville.

 

[deakka]

You are right. The kunitz of old gad more drive. Neal on the other hand has been a perimeter players since he came here. Let's hope Hörnqvist doesn't stop.driving the net.

 

[Michael8771*]

1. I said I think we could've gotten more but what the more was may not have been worth nixing a deal.

2. Neal was symptomatic of the team's cultural problem, and two years of Shero neglecting to address that problem made a more drastic move necessary. Not as big a problem as Sid, of course, but few have the courage you have to call out that cancer . . .

Why not deal Letang? Talk about arrogant!!! And his cap hit and term are significantly more. Letang could have been traded and the return likely would have been better. Also we have plenty of capable PMD. That's how you help your team. Deal his bloated salary and deal a guy from a position where by we have plenty of depth. And if you can't gain all the pieces you need via that trade, you likely have more cap space to explore a player in free agency. Now that makes much more sense.

 

[KIRK]

I didn't want to trade James Neal. I have to admit. I was one that was kind of clinging to the whole 40 goal guy thing while understanding his warts of course. I never denied all that he lacked but I sure did like having that type of sniper in the lineup.

I will say this. When I saw Bylsma on screen as the HC of the Pens last year it just felt so wrong. I know some had wanted him gone for a few years before that but lat year it really just felt wrong for him to still be here. I've had that feeling about Neal this summer too. As much as I like him I just had that gut feeling that he's a bad guy to have in that room right now. A few NHL sources have kind of speculated about that too.

You could wait to trade him but to me the most ideal time is the off-season. It gives you a whole season to integrate the new guys you're getting in the deal, as opposed to having a bunch of new guys trying to find chemistry half way through or late in the season. Neal also would have had a NTC kick in next summer and likely would have been able to block deals to a team like Nashville.

And why today? Perhaps because some of the offers included picks today. Those offers necessarily were gone tonight.

As I keep saying, not as simple as a lot of people here want it to be. Real world. Not a video game.

 

[canadianguy77]

1. I said I think we could've gotten more but what the more was may not have been worth nixing a deal.

2. Neal was symptomatic of the team's cultural problem, and two years of Shero neglecting to address that problem made a more drastic move necessary. Not as big a problem as Sid, of course, but few have the courage you have to call out that cancer . . .

The more I analyze this **** Kirk...the more I think you're right.

I love Neal...there are 2 players in the world who have a better release than him. That said...this team needs a culture change.

 

[KIRK]

Why not deal Letang? Talk about arrogant!!! And his cap hit and term are significantly more. Letang could have been traded and the return likely would have been better. Also we have plenty of capable PMD. That's how you help your team. Deal his bloated salary and deal a guy where by we have plenty of depth.

Well, that's a step up from dealing Sid instead of Neal, I will give you that.

Why not Letang? The stroke would've made him a pure dump on a team where your top six on opening night would've been Martin, Scuderi, Despres (if signed), Dumoulin, and I guess Harrington and Sammy.

I don't think you get the equivalent to Letang of Hornqvist to Neal right now. And, for as much as you say 'plenty of PMD's', with Maatta and Pouliot (even if he'd been ready from day one) out, there really aren't. Not if you're being honest.

 

[AvsRobin]

This is a bad trade for you guys. But I thought that I would give you guys some background info about Horny.

His name used to be Patrick Bengtsson, hence the nickname "Bengan". He was a bit of a late bloomer and played in the swedish 3rd division untill he was 18 when he was signed by Djurgården. Patric was never known for his talent. He was known for being the hardest worker on the team. And during his first season Djurgården he had a small role and didnt contribute much offensively. Djurgården was basically forced to bump him to the 1st line in 06/07 cause they didnt have any money to sign any "real" good players. But then things really took off for Horny. Djurgården had the best playmaker in the league and next to him Horny scored 23 goals in 49 games with a team that just about avoided relegation. He decided to stay another year before moving to Nashville.

I've always wanted to see him with a REAL center. I was amazed by how many goals he scored in Nashville "without having any talent". He just works so damn hard and make sure to get into the areas where goals are scored. I wouldn't call him a poor mans Holmstrom. His game is more expanded than that.

 

[KIRK]

The more I analyze this **** Kirk...the more I think you're right.

I love Neal...there are 2 players in the world who have a better release than him. That said...this team needs a culture change.

So, you're saying you're drunk then.

 

[Ogrezilla]

After sleeping on it, I'm less annoyed by this trade. This is a good trade if you assume Neal really is the one dimensional scorer that he was the second half of last year. Hornqvist is a better player than that version of Neal. Even if he scores 10 less goals than Neal would have in the regular season, Hornqvist is going to help us win playoff games more than that version of Neal.

But Neal has shown flashes of the player he can be, and that version of Neal is significantly better than Hornqvist. If Neal never figures out how to be fully engaged on both ends of the ice, then this trade will look good. If Neal continues to play like he has the majority of the last two years, then this trade will make us a better team when the games actually matter.

Regardless, Hornqvist is a right handed goal scorer. We need that. Is there a chance Neal figures things out and becomes a dominant winger? Yes. But I think there's also a chance Hornqvist blows up with Sid and Geno too. Overall, his stats are right about on par with Neal's in Dallas. Its not out of the question to think Hornqvist could come in and blow up just like Neal did.

 

[KIRK]

This is a bad trade for you guys. But I thought that I would give you guys some background info about Horny.

His name used to be Patrick Bengtsson, hence the nickname "Bengan". He was a bit of a late bloomer and played in the swedish 3rd division untill he was 18 when he was signed by Djurgården. Patric was never known for his talent. He was known for being the hardest worker on the team. And during his first season Djurgården he had a small role and didnt contribute much offensively. Djurgården was basically forced to bump him to the 1st line in 06/07 cause they didnt have any money to sign any "real" good players. But then things really took off for Horny. Djurgården had the best playmaker in the league and next to him Horny scored 23 goals in 49 games with a team that just about avoided relegation. He decided to stay another year before moving to Nashville.

I've always wanted to see him with a REAL center. I was amazed by how many goals he scored in Nashville "without having any talent". He just works so damn hard and make sure to get into the areas where goals are scored. I wouldn't call him a poor mans Holmstrom. His game is more expanded than that.

So, why exactly was this a bad trade for us then?

If Horny can score 30 in Nashville, then I think he can score 30 with Sid or Geno.

Is Neal going to score 30 in Nashville just because he scored 40 with Geno?

As I keep saying, in Nashville, in that division, with those centers, you have to work for everything. It's not like you're on a line with Sid or Geno, in a **** division, where you're gifted a lot of goals.

People will see all of that soon enough.