Injury Report: Jake Muzzin - broken hand - out ~4 weeks

[ottomaddox]

You left out Holl.



Yes, when you remove the 3 most experienced defenseman on the team, you will be less experienced. What's your point? That holds true for every team.

When healthy, their games of experience looks like:

(536)-(569)
(636)-(75)
(165)-(519)
(228)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with having the next two options be two of the best defensive prospects in the world that are ready to play at an NHL level.

The point is that Dubas needed to address this! Long before any injuries.

 

[ottomaddox]

Nobody we would have gotten for a low draft pick is any better than the guys we already have.

It would have meant high draft picks/prospects/roster pieces.

Agreed, but hanging on to support players like Kap and Johnsson did Kyle no favours. Also paying 4 of his stars so much money. He had longer than the trade deadline to fix this issue.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The point is that Dubas needed to address this! Long before any injuries.

That wasn't your point. We had very normal defensive depth, and Dubas made the right call not wasting assets.

Agreed, but hanging on to support players like Kap and Johnsson did Kyle no favours.

They are important depth with potential, which we also need at forward, especially right now with injuries there. They are signed long-term. There is no rush to move them, if that even is the end goal. You wait for the right deal to open up.

Also paying 4 of his stars so much money.

Stars make money. This should not be a surprise.

 

[namttebih]

More like a top 2 Dman and a top line winger.
Let’s say Richtie is still with the Ducks, I don’t think Richtie and Manson for Marner is a deal where there won’t be uproar. Seth Jones and Foligno, that’s another story.
Marner is look upon as the pride and joy of the Leafs in TO. There will probably be less bad press if they move Matthews than Marner.

We would be lucky to get Jones straight up for Marner.

I don't think that the uproar would be as bad as you think. Most of the luster has been rubbed off of Marner. I don't look at him the same as I did before the contract demands and the need for the letter on the sweater. I know a lot of people who feel the same way as well.

 

[NewEraGM]

You left out Holl.



Yes, when you remove the 3 most experienced defenseman on the team, you will be less experienced. What's your point? That holds true for every team.

When healthy, their games of experience looks like:

(536)-(569)
(636)-(75)
(165)-(519)
(228)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with having the next two options be two of the best defensive prospects in the world that are ready to play at an NHL level.

yea I’d cool it on the “2 of the best defense prospects in the world” talk. Easy there

 

[Dekes For Days]

yea I’d cool it on the “2 of the best defense prospects in the world” talk. Easy there

Did you miss the part where Sandin won best defenseman at the world juniors? Both of these players have excelled at early ages in a more difficult league than most play in. They are top prospects.

 

[Trapper]

We would be lucky to get Jones straight up for Marner.

I don't think that the uproar would be as bad as you think. Most of the luster has been rubbed off of Marner. I don't look at him the same as I did before the contract demands and the need for the letter on the sweater. I know a lot of people who feel the same way as well.

Its probably still too early to make the final move on Marner (and the rest of the core).:
However, there are some important factors to consider moving forward.

No. 1: The consistency of the core. If maturity, compete and dismal games like Pittsburgh x2, Carolina, Florida, etc. are going to keep happening, you need to seriously consider "adjusting" the core. Is the balance of the core too heavy on forwards and needs to include a mix of forwards, improved D?

No. 2: Team. It's great if you love each and every individual member of the core but we are trying to win a cup. Not a popularity contest. If the amount of money locked up in 1 player just prevents you from having solid support, it may be time.
You should have the core.
Then some support should be greater than just bargain bin fill ins. Better than what we are getting from Johnsson/Ceci/Barrie/etc.
Then some role players.
How many solid players could you add for just the 11 million salary of Marner alone? 3? 3 more at the Muzzin level (around or above a Kadri level?) That's pretty big.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

yea I’d cool it on the “2 of the best defense prospects in the world” talk. Easy there

I mean statistically they are two of the best in the world, actually historically at the AHL level. It's not really that big of a reach.

Liljegren is outproducing Evan Bouchard this year in their age 20 seasons at the AHL level and Liljegren is further along in his defensive development. He's not 6'3" like Bouchard but he's the better player right now. Currently 7th all time in PPG for 20 year olds.

And Sandin is just on another level for 19 year old defenseman. His defense needs work but he's sitting 2nd all time in PPG for 19 year old D-men in the AHL behind John Carlson, and he has held his own for somebody as small as he is at the NHL level.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Nobody we would have gotten for a low draft pick is any better than the guys we already have.

It would have meant high draft picks/prospects/roster pieces.

If this is true, then not trading of course makes sense. I fail to see how every team is going to sign all of their UFA's.

Remember, my thinking is, if you can't flip Barrie for a key D man, then, I am just looking for serviceable players for rental purposes. If they work out, I consider 2021, but, I have no preconceptions. If, Leafs have to give anything more than what I suggested, player has to have term and has to be a top 4. Otherwise, a 5 or 6 works.

Here are a list of UFA's for 2021 for teams currently not in the playoffs, so this is a low number of the total available. I didn't list all of them, just a quick copy and paste. Many of them have 3+ years of league experience.

Could any of them have been had for a 4th round, 5th and a low tier prospect? Any of them an improvement over an AHL defense? I purposely didn't choose guys making the min. as I assume they might be retained or, might not be a better choice than bringing our own D in for the year.

I don't know, I'm just looking for depth. Ordered by salary, you decide, I could have listed 5x as many, just UFA's no term:

Niklas Hjalmarsson

AZ

UFA

34

D

L

$5,000,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jason Demers

AZ

UFA

33

D

R

$3,937,500

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Brendan Smith

NYR

UFA

32

D

L

$4,350,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Erik Gudbranson

ANA

UFA

29

D

R

$4,000,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Patrik Nemeth

DET

UFA

29

D

L

$3,000,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jake McCabe

BUF

UFA

27

D

L

$2,850,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Mike Reilly

OTT

UFA

28

D

L

$1,500,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Connor Carrick

NJD

UFA

27

D

R

$1,500,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Jordan Oesterle

AZ

UFA

29

D

L

$1,400,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[ottomaddox]

That wasn't your point. We had very normal defensive depth, and Dubas made the right call not wasting assets.

They are important depth with potential, which we also need at forward, especially right now with injuries there. They are signed long-term. There is no rush to move them, if that even is the end goal. You wait for the right deal to open up.

Stars make money. This should not be a surprise.

At this point it's arguments for arguments sake.

I can't wait for you to chase me all over HF just to prove that teams pay a lot of money for star players.

 

[Bluelines]

If you look at the starting line up from the 1st game, Rielly was our #1, Ceci was our #2, Barrie was our #3 , Muzzin was our #4. So from our starting line up we have lost our #1, #2, and #4 dman.

Ceci dropped to #6, Muzzin IMO rose to our #2. So from our recent line up we lost our #1, #2 and #6 Dman.

How many teams lose 3 of their top 5 dman at the same time?

 

[egd27]

You seem to unreasonably expect him to have a 100% accurate step by step laid out plan years in advance, before we were sure what we had in Matthews, Marner, Johnsson, Kapanen, or what they would make, before we had paid Nylander, before Kerfoot, Muzzin, Barrie, etc. were on the team, before we knew what we had in our prospect pool close to graduating, before we knew how the team did, how Marleau did, and what areas needed to be addressed/improved, etc.

I'm sure he had plenty of scenarios set up and discussed, and plenty of scenarios that would have worked (I'm not sure why a mutually understood trade to the Western conference is so ridiculous to you), but when a wrench got thrown it at all at the last possible minute, he still was able to get what he needed for a reasonable cost, like a good GM.

Why so defensive about Dubas? LOL

100% laid out plan years in advance? Good gracious,

On July 1 2018, he committed $11M for 7 years to JT. At that time he knew the ELC expiration dates of 88, 34, 16, 24 & 18 and (i assume) had a ballpark amount for each.

It was common knowledge that the Tavares signing alone, was going to have some kind of domino effect, let alone the significant contracts handed out to the Big 3.

So it's tough that he got blindsided at the last minute by Marleau's demand of SJ or bust, (who today finds himself a Penguin btw). I just wonder why it was left to the last minute when Dubas was out of options, and what his original plan was. I assume he must of had more than waiting until the season 18-19 season ended and trade him "somewhere out west".

 

[Bluelines]

There is no better time than to test out Dermott, Sandin and Liljegren.

Toronto isn't going to trade for assets that can't play past the playoffs. We have a lot of good young players... it's time to use them.

On defence? Where are we hiding them?

Lilly played 10 minutes in a game where we had 5 D , that would suggest Keefe does not agree with your statement.

 

[SprDaVE]

On defence? Where are we hiding them?

Lilly played 10 minutes in a game where we had 5 D , that would suggest Keefe does not agree with your statement.

It's a process. He will play a lot more down the stretch. Sandin didn't play all that much either, he just got extra reps on the PP.

Keefe 100% agrees or else they wouldn't be playing over many other AHL veterans.

 

[ULF_55]

Why so defensive about Dubas? LOL

So it's tough that he got blindsided at the last minute by Marleau's demand of SJ or bust, (who today finds himself a Penguin btw). I just wonder why it was left to the last minute when Dubas was out of options, and what his original plan was. I assume he must of had more than waiting until the season 18-19 season ended and trade him "somewhere out west".

Yes, no reason to defend Dubas over a situation he didn't create.

Dubas has made his own mistakes no need to defend him over someone else's blunders.

 

[GoonieFace]

Did you miss the part where Sandin won best defenseman at the world juniors? Both of these players have excelled at early ages in a more difficult league than most play in. They are top prospects.

How many stars at the World Juniors went on to be duds in the NHL? It happens. Not saying Sandin isn't going to be good, but its never a sure thing.

 

[Bluelines]

It's a process. He will play a lot more down the stretch. Sandin didn't play all that much either, he just got extra reps on the PP.

Keefe 100% agrees or else they wouldn't be playing over many other AHL veterans.

You play the best of what you got, it does not necessarily mean we have "lots of good young players".

 

[ACC1224]

How many stars at the World Juniors went on to be duds in the NHL? It happens.

How many 'stars' that were eligible didn't play in the WJHC because they were in the NHL?

 

[SprDaVE]

You play the best of what you got, it does not necessarily mean we have "lots of good young players".

So you're saying Sandin and Liljegren aren't good young players because they are getting low amounts of minutes?

 

[egd27]

Yes, no reason to defend Dubas over a situation he didn't create.

Dubas has made his own mistakes no need to defend him over someone else's blunders.

I would modify your statement to no reason to defend Dubas when he isn't being criticized.

The OP was just wondering what his original plan was for Marleau, because I doubt it was the way it ended up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I fail to see how every team is going to sign all of their UFA's.

Just because a team isn't likely to sign a player, it doesn't mean they are automatically available for whatever you think is fair for what is usually a mediocre to bad player.

Remember, my thinking is, if you can't flip Barrie for a key D man, then, I am just looking for serviceable players for rental purposes.

Barrie is a key defenseman.

Could any of them have been had for a 4th round, 5th and a low tier prospect?

Probably none of the ones worth getting.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I can't wait for you to chase me all over HF just to prove that teams pay a lot of money for star players.

Lol what? Chase you? You responded to me 3 times in 5 minutes this morning, and not just to posts responding to you. Just accept you were proven wrong and move on. We had depth; we had normal experience.

Most teams don't lose 3 of their most important defenseman at the same time.

 

[ottomaddox]

Lol what? Chase you? You responded to me 3 times in 5 minutes this morning, and not just to posts responding to you. Just accept you were proven wrong and move on. We had depth; we had normal experience.

Most teams don't lose 3 of their most important defenseman at the same time.

Nahhhh...

Some folks here are saying we have 7+ NHL defensemen this team.

I am not talking about the losing 3 defensemen phenomena.

Edit - let's agree to disagree that we are arguing different things at the same time which means that we agree.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How many stars at the World Juniors went on to be duds in the NHL? It happens.

Just because something has happened before, it doesn't mean it should be the expected. At an international competition with many of the top prospects in the world, he was the best. This is to add on to the fact that he's excelling in the AHL at an age and level rarely seen. He is a top prospect.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why so defensive about Dubas?

Not defensive. Accurate.

100% laid out plan years in advance? Good gracious

Seems to be what you want.

It was common knowledge that the Tavares signing alone, was going to have some kind of domino effect

It didn't, besides maybe supporting Marner thriving.

So it's tough that he got blindsided at the last minute by Marleau's demand of SJ or bust, (who today finds himself a Penguin btw).

Yeah, pretty scummy move by Marleau.

I just wonder why it was left to the last minute when Dubas was out of options, and what his original plan was.

He didn't leave it to the last minute. He had countless laid out plans based on the available information. The information and parameters changed last minute that put restrictions on most or all of those plans, so he had to adjust, and he did. That was outside of his control, and he handled it well.