TSN: Jake Gardiner or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Advanced Stats

YOYOTCROSTER*

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I had absolutely no idea Gardiner only started playing defence at 17. To give you some perspective in todays hockey our kids going in the ohl have played approximately 1,000 competitive games in their positons before they hit the ice for their first ohl game. And with that background they play another 80+ games for 3 more years before the best hit the nhl. Morgan Rielly started played defence at age 7. Dion Phaneuf at age 5.

Jake has played 40+ games for 3 years in ncaa and then 5 pro seasons. So he has maybe maximum 600 games played on defence. Morgan is welll over DOUBLE the number of games under his belt even though he is 21 and Jake is 25.

When he looks lost keep in mind he was trained and got his experiece as a forward and was converted to defence for university hockey. When you understand his background things start to make more sense. I think he could be a guy who really does not hit his stride on defence for another 3 or 4 years. He has to make all these defensive decision errors before he starts to put the puzzle together. And he will need almost all of Babs time to teach him the position.

Wow the more I understand of his background it really shocks me what Burke did. The nhl is not the best place for position training.

When you and I look at his decisions on defence they do not add up to what we were taught in AAA, then in junior and some of us the minors. Well guess what he did not have this background to build from he just switched positions in college.

Can't really blame him for his decision on 2 on 1 last night as i think everyone was shocked at what JVR did. Although personally i would have gone after the shooter as i was trained to take the guy who had the closest path to the kill zone. But it is debatable as it happened at the dot. The game before the reverse 2 on 1 happened at top of circle and on that one for sure he had to take the man standing in blue ice. Wheeler was far off to the side and those wide angle shots are saved by most nhl goalies. But then again i think he does not have the game experience to back up his decision making which makes things that much harder for the guy. I for one will give him some more rope now.
 

DopeyFish

Mitchy McDangles
Nov 17, 2009
6,646
4,748
Gardiner neutralizes plays... even though he can sometimes look like a goof

It's the same problem kaberle had...

If you look at an attack as a sequence of many events, kaberle/gardiner shut it down early in the sequence... but the problem with defense is many people look for events near the end of the sequence which would be the few moments leading up to a goal.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,658
10,695
Gardiner neutralizes plays... even though he can sometimes look like a goof

It's the same problem kaberle had...

If you look at an attack as a sequence of many events, kaberle/gardiner shut it down early in the sequence... but the problem with defense is many people look for events near the end of the sequence which would be the few moments leading up to a goal.

Precisely why I use Kabs as my Gardiner comparable with caveat he puts up less points.
 

Ovate

Registered User
Dec 17, 2014
4,105
56
Toronto
Gardiner with a two point night tonight. Nice to see him get on the scoresheet, after a fairly slow opening points-wise.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,280
9,323
:laugh: Oh Jake.

2. Fatherly advice
Earlier this week Jake Gardiner noted his intention to become more physically engaged.
"It was my dad that actually mentioned it to me," Gardiner said. "He usually doesn't give me much advice, but he just said I need to play more intense, with some more intensity – whether it's just boxing guys out in front of the net or finishing checks. I got it from him actually.
"Even with the puck too, just making harder plays, crisp passes, just everything to the next level I guess."
 

YOYOTCROSTER*

Guest
Normally guys at the nhl level this would be shocking no doubt Daisy BUT considering his lack of game experience as a defenseman it does not surprise me. This is a guy who may not really GET IT FULLY as a defenseman for another 2 or 3 years. I would stick with him as he learns the position. His raw skills are very very good.
 

Dustin

Registered User
Sep 24, 2014
5,001
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Great game tonight by Gardiner. Turn inside out on one play but was fast on the break out most of the night.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
i'm surprised babs hasn't started leaning on him more. he's great.
 

champs*

Guest
i'm surprised babs hasn't started leaning on him more. he's great.

Not so easy to do the way babcock has his defense structured, can only really take pp time from phanruf, about it.
 

Atomos2

Registered User
Jun 28, 2012
16,529
2,774
Toronto, Ontario
The breakout pass he made for Parenteau's second goal was a thing of beauty. I don't care what people say, it takes some world class talent to make a pass like that.
 

RayNibbs

Registered User
Mar 26, 2015
474
1
Toronto, ON
The breakout pass he made for Parenteau's second goal was a thing of beauty. I don't care what people say, it takes some world class talent to make a pass like that.

I was sitting with 2 leaf despisers and they both let out a "wow" when he made that play. Beauty.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
well he doesn't get much PK time but Babs seems to use him lots 5 on 5 and on the PP.

he really should be getting PK time though.

i guess they're making sure polak's trade value is maxed.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
The breakout pass he made for Parenteau's second goal was a thing of beauty. I don't care what people say, it takes some world class talent to make a pass like that.

the skill from all 3 of jake bozie and jvr on that play was something else. the ducks were in good position and we just sliced and diced them.

not so sure this team is as untalented as people think.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,384
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St. Paul, MN
It's strange how little attention he's been getting this year - likely having the most impressive season of any of the Leafs.
 

champs*

Guest
he really should be getting PK time though.

i guess they're making sure polak's trade value is maxed.

Babcock does not play Gardner in "any" defensive situations and pretty much tries to keep him out of our d-zone as much as possible. This is why he is "looking good" from a distance. :D:D:D
 
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Guy Boucher

Registered User
Oct 22, 2008
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Babcock does not play Gardner in "any" defensive situations and pretty much tries to keep him out of our d-zone as much as possible. This is why he is "looking good" from a distance. :D:D:D

He starts in the defensive zone more than Phaneuf. Might want to try another random grasp at straws.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,384
33,277
St. Paul, MN
Moreso than Leo????

Leo's certainly playing well - but I'm not sure if this level of play is going to continue beyond this season.

Gardiner is playing fantastic at a level that I think is very sustainable - which is why I find his play more impressive.
 

champs*

Guest
He starts in the defensive zone more than Phaneuf. Might want to try another random grasp at straws.

babcock also tries to keep Phaneuf out of the d-zone as much as possible. He has taken away as much defensive responsibly away from Phaneuf and gardner as possible.(mostly gardner, 100% no pk or last minute time) stats prove this to be true and easily seen in a game if you look for it.

70% of all shifts Gardner started last night against the ducks, was in the offensive zone.
 
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zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
D-Zone Start %

1.Hunwick 35.1
2.Rielly 35.0
3.Phaneuf 33.7
4.Gardiner 33.1
5.Polak 32.3
6.Marincin 25.0

Opponents' CF%

1.Hunwick 50.4
2.Rielly 50.3
3.Phaneuf 50.1
4.Gardiner 50.1
5.Marincin 49.5
6.Polak 49.4

neither Jake or Dion is being sheltered from defensive responsibility.

Marincin is the only sheltered one. Polak a little bit too.
 

champs*

Guest
D-Zone Start %

1.Hunwick 35.1
2.Rielly 35.0
3.Phaneuf 33.7
4.Gardiner 33.1
5.Polak 32.3
6.Marincin 25.0

Opponents' CF%

1.Hunwick 50.4
2.Rielly 50.3
3.Phaneuf 50.1
4.Gardiner 50.1
5.Marincin 49.5
6.Polak 49.4

neither Jake or Dion is being sheltered from defensive responsibility.

Marincin is the only sheltered one. Polak a little bit too.

i will go look at the stats from the last couple games... i think around the 15+ game mark is when they figured out how to structure this team.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
If you want to see what being sheltered looks like, look at a guy like, say, Subban.

D-Zone Start%

1.Emelin 35.9
2.Petry 35.4
3.Beaulieu 30.8
4.Markov 30.4
5.Gilbert 30.0
6.Subban 29.5

or Doughty

1.Martinez 35.1
2.Muzzin 33.1
3.Ehrhoff 28.4
4.Doughty 28.1
5.McNabb 27.4
6.McBain 26.1
 

teeder333*

Registered User
Oct 22, 2014
1,924
0
I have always LOVED Gardiner, whom I consider the best skater in D recent history. He seems to be best buds with Rielly too who is a pretty good skater as well, but not as good laterally.

Only problem I have with Gards is he takes 35 games every year to get into his beast mode.

I will only exalt him when he can start from the end of the first exhibition game. And GO.
 

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