Jackman to be on line with Monahan

[Anglesmith]

We are both watching, but the difference you are so blind to his potential you are giving him a free pass, maybe that even a subconscious thing. Baertschi does some good things, but he does float alot too, he always has. That needs to be removed from his game if he is going to live up to his potential of an elite forward.

I understand your need to invalidate any comments which are out of line with your own, but please believe that I have no problem seeing when a player isn't giving effort. I do not believe that I am giving him a free pass. I am merely going off the play that I see, which is a lot of board battles, a lot of tracking his man down the half-boards in the defensive end and in many cases winding up either behind the net or in the goalmouth (rather than guys like Iggy who don't go below the hashmarks), and a lot of chippy play in the neutral zone to keep possession or else disrupt it. I see this every game I see him play.

 

[Lunatik]

I'd have more faith in the Flames approach to development if a) it had demonstrated some modicum of success and b) if they weren't doing the exact same thing that's led to failure each and every time.

If one takes a look back at the Flames draft record all the way to 1990, it's a complete wasteland when it comes to elite talent. And the fact that they continue with the exact same tactics which have yet to show any semblance of success, i.e. the only way you play is if you play like a 30 year old vet who doesn't make any sort of mistakes, otherwise prepare to waste away on the bottom six or press box for a few years before being declared a bust, is bizarre.

Baertschi isn't going to learn anything by sitting in the press and watching the likes of Galiardi, Jackman, Jones, Colborne, and Glencross give away the puck or miss their defensive zone assignments only to be rewarded with more ice time. Nor is Backlund ever going to develop into anything more than a bottom six defensive specialist (and that's somehow a bad thing according to a select few dimwits) if he never gets the chance to play in the offensive zone. Honestly, the level of cognitive dissonance in this case is just mind boggling - when people can with a straight face say that Backlund is on the 4th line because he isn't producing offensively, but at the same acknowledge that it's terribly hard to produce on the 4th line when your linemates are usually Jackman and McGrattan, and yet still believe it's up to Backlund to somehow, magically, produce, even though they know he's not going to, you know something is wrong with their thought process, assuming they even have one.

Anyway, given the Flames record when icing sub par rosters in the hopes of making a prospect that they should feel bad for being naturally talented and making the rest of the grinders feel ashamed about themselves, maybe Hartley really does support the tank. Break apart for Reinhart as the Oilers fan say.

I forgot that nothing in coaching, management or scouting has changed in the past 30 years. So why bother trying, it will end up the same!

 

[TylerSVT*]

Why is Hartley continually shoving "Colborne is #1C" down our throats?

 

[Lunatik]

I understand your need to invalidate any comments which are out of line with your own, but please believe that I have no problem seeing when a player isn't giving effort. I do not believe that I am giving him a free pass. I am merely going off the play that I see, which is a lot of board battles, a lot of tracking his man down the half-boards in the defensive end and in many cases winding up either behind the net or in the goalmouth (rather than guys like Iggy who don't go below the hashmarks), and a lot of chippy play in the neutral zone to keep possession or else disrupt it. I see this every game I see him play.

So your conclusion is what?That he is just not good enough right now? Because let's be honest here he has not done anymore than "not look out of place" this year. Or do you think he needs time in the minors? Because he has been outplayed almost every game, so if its not between his years the problem has to be his ability.

 

[Anglesmith]

So your conclusion is what?That he is just not good enough right now? Because let's be honest here he has not done anymore than "not look out of place" this year. Or do you think he needs time in the minors? Because he has been outplayed almost every game, so if its not between his years the problem has to be his ability.

I say play him, I've honestly liked his play and think he needs to play hockey in order to improve his hockey. He has been far from a liability on the ice, and we've seen exactly what kind of a team we have when he isn't in the lineup.

 

[MarkGio]

I'd have more faith in the Flames approach to development if a) it had demonstrated some modicum of success and b) if they weren't doing the exact same thing that's led to failure each and every time.

If one takes a look back at the Flames draft record all the way to 1990, it's a complete wasteland when it comes to elite talent. And the fact that they continue with the exact same tactics which have yet to show any semblance of success, i.e. the only way you play is if you play like a 30 year old vet who doesn't make any sort of mistakes, otherwise prepare to waste away on the bottom six or press box for a few years before being declared a bust, is bizarre.

Baertschi isn't going to learn anything by sitting in the press and watching the likes of Galiardi, Jackman, Jones, Colborne, and Glencross give away the puck or miss their defensive zone assignments only to be rewarded with more ice time. Nor is Backlund ever going to develop into anything more than a bottom six defensive specialist (and that's somehow a bad thing according to a select few dimwits) if he never gets the chance to play in the offensive zone. Honestly, the level of cognitive dissonance in this case is just mind boggling - when people can with a straight face say that Backlund is on the 4th line because he isn't producing offensively, but at the same acknowledge that it's terribly hard to produce on the 4th line when your linemates are usually Jackman and McGrattan, and yet still believe it's up to Backlund to somehow, magically, produce, even though they know he's not going to, you know something is wrong with their thought process, assuming they even have one.

Anyway, given the Flames record when icing sub par rosters in the hopes of making a prospect that they should feel bad for being naturally talented and making the rest of the grinders feel ashamed about themselves, maybe Hartley really does support the tank. Break apart for Reinhart as the Oilers fan say.

Yes. I too have been an intelligent Flames fan for too long to buy into this garbage. I also think that people are trying to mold players into their idea that every elite prospect is going to be a Johnny Toews or Datsuk. Backlund is great defensively but doesn't have the offensive skill to score goals on his own, from one end to the other. He needs line-mates to be contributing, just like Stajan.

Baertschi is also a play maker, often compared to Tanguay. Its no surprise that a Tanguay-hater is also criticizing Baertschi so much, but I digress... I'll give credit that Baertschi has been doing better on the back-check, but this "floating around" is Baertschi's style of game and his uncanny ability to stop, think and work smart, not hard. He's capitalizes when other players are too busy being a pitbull to make the smart play.

 

[Calculon]

I forgot that nothing in coaching, management or scouting has changed in the past 30 years. So why bother trying, it will end up the same!

Same bullheaded tactics, likely the same results. Apparently though, only prospects need to show something tangible in order be shown some faith and trust. A pity one can't hold organizations to the same standard; they have to be blindly trusted regardless of performance.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I'd have more faith in the Flames approach to development if a) it had demonstrated some modicum of success and b) if they weren't doing the exact same thing that's led to failure each and every time.

If one takes a look back at the Flames draft record all the way to 1990, it's a complete wasteland when it comes to elite talent. And the fact that they continue with the exact same tactics which have yet to show any semblance of success, i.e. the only way you play is if you play like a 30 year old vet who doesn't make any sort of mistakes, otherwise prepare to waste away on the bottom six or press box for a few years before being declared a bust, is bizarre.

Baertschi isn't going to learn anything by sitting in the press and watching the likes of Galiardi, Jackman, Jones, Colborne, and Glencross give away the puck or miss their defensive zone assignments only to be rewarded with more ice time. Nor is Backlund ever going to develop into anything more than a bottom six defensive specialist (and that's somehow a bad thing according to a select few dimwits) if he never gets the chance to play in the offensive zone. Honestly, the level of cognitive dissonance in this case is just mind boggling - when people can with a straight face say that Backlund is on the 4th line because he isn't producing offensively, but at the same acknowledge that it's terribly hard to produce on the 4th line when your linemates are usually Jackman and McGrattan, and yet still believe it's up to Backlund to somehow, magically, produce, even though they know he's not going to, you know something is wrong with their thought process, assuming they even have one.

Anyway, given the Flames record when icing sub par rosters in the hopes of making a prospect that they should feel bad for being naturally talented and making the rest of the grinders feel ashamed about themselves, maybe Hartley really does support the tank. Break apart for Reinhart as the Oilers fan say.

Yes. I too have been an intelligent Flames fan for too long to buy into this garbage. I also think that people are trying to mold players into their idea that every elite prospect is going to be a Johnny Toews or Datsuk. Backlund is great defensively but doesn't have the offensive skill to score goals on his own, from one end to the other. He needs line-mates to be contributing, just like Stajan.

Baertschi is also a play maker, often compared to Tanguay. Its no surprise that a Tanguay-hater is also criticizing Baertschi so much, but I digress... I'll give credit that Baertschi has been doing better on the back-check, but this "floating around" is Baertschi's style of game and his uncanny ability to stop, think and work smart, not hard. He's capitalizes when other players are too busy being a pitbull to make the smart play.

All I can say is, yes, yes and yes.

 

[Lunatik]

I say play him, I've honestly liked his play and think he needs to play hockey in order to improve his hockey. He has been far from a liability on the ice, and we've seen exactly what kind of a team we have when he isn't in the lineup.

You actually think the Minnesota game would have turned out differently if Baertschi would have been playing? The only difference is we would have had our ass handed to us with him in the line-up instead of without. Too many players were simply not good enough for Baertschi to make any form of difference.

 

[Ashasx]

I'd have more faith in the Flames approach to development if a) it had demonstrated some modicum of success and b) if they weren't doing the exact same thing that's led to failure each and every time.

If one takes a look back at the Flames draft record all the way to 1990, it's a complete wasteland when it comes to elite talent. And the fact that they continue with the exact same tactics which have yet to show any semblance of success, i.e. the only way you play is if you play like a 30 year old vet who doesn't make any sort of mistakes, otherwise prepare to waste away on the bottom six or press box for a few years before being declared a bust, is bizarre.

Baertschi isn't going to learn anything by sitting in the press and watching the likes of Galiardi, Jackman, Jones, Colborne, and Glencross give away the puck or miss their defensive zone assignments only to be rewarded with more ice time. Nor is Backlund ever going to develop into anything more than a bottom six defensive specialist (and that's somehow a bad thing according to a select few dimwits) if he never gets the chance to play in the offensive zone. Honestly, the level of cognitive dissonance in this case is just mind boggling - when people can with a straight face say that Backlund is on the 4th line because he isn't producing offensively, but at the same acknowledge that it's terribly hard to produce on the 4th line when your linemates are usually Jackman and McGrattan, and yet still believe it's up to Backlund to somehow, magically, produce, even though they know he's not going to, you know something is wrong with their thought process, assuming they even have one.

Anyway, given the Flames record when icing sub par rosters in the hopes of making a prospect that they should feel bad for being naturally talented and making the rest of the grinders feel ashamed about themselves, maybe Hartley really does support the tank. Break apart for Reinhart as the Oilers fan say.

Great post. This organization doesn't learn from its mistakes.

Yes. I too have been an intelligent Flames fan for too long to buy into this garbage. I also think that people are trying to mold players into their idea that every elite prospect is going to be a Johnny Toews or Datsuk. Backlund is great defensively but doesn't have the offensive skill to score goals on his own, from one end to the other. He needs line-mates to be contributing, just like Stajan.

Baertschi is also a play maker, often compared to Tanguay. Its no surprise that a Tanguay-hater is also criticizing Baertschi so much, but I digress... I'll give credit that Baertschi has been doing better on the back-check, but this "floating around" is Baertschi's style of game and his uncanny ability to stop, think and work smart, not hard. He's capitalizes when other players are too busy being a pitbull to make the smart play.

Another great post. The Flames seem to believe that they have a specific role in mind for Baertschi, and they're upset he's not living up to their ridiculous expectations. They want him to be Marian Hossa, when in reality he's closer to Patrick Kane (though Baertschi is better defensively than Kane).

 

[Anglesmith]

You actually think the Minnesota game would have turned out differently if Baertschi would have been playing? The only difference is we would have had our ass handed to us with him in the line-up instead of without. Too many players were simply not good enough for Baertschi to make any form of difference.

You can't say that for certain. Neither of us can say anything for certain. But if three or four more Baertschi-less games end up 5-1, we can start making some guesses. The fact is, you're talking about a guy who is a ****ing -1 on the season as if he drags the team down. If he was really as off-the-pace as you're suggesting, he would be a lot worse than that.

 

[Lunatik]

Same bullheaded tactics, likely the same results. Apparently though, only prospects need to show something tangible in order be shown some faith and trust. A pity one can't hold organizations to the same standard; they have to be blindly trusted regardless of performance.

I would rather have blind faith that things will change than do nothing but seen the down side and be negative about everything.

Significant changes have been made in the last 30 years. Asking player to earn time is what most teams do, take the wings for example, even their top prospects often over see 2-3 years in the minors. They force the players to earn it.

Do you think just handing a player ice time works better? If they are playing well enough to justify it then great let them play if not, then spend the time developing them.

It's also hilarious that you are complaining about this right now when we have an 18 year old centre that was just drafted playing bigger minutes than Sven. But I suppose those are the same bullheaded tactics too right?

 

[Lunatik]

You can't say that for certain. Neither of us can say anything for certain. But if three or four more Baertschi-less games end up 5-1, we can start making some guesses. The fact is, you're talking about a guy who is a ****ing -1 on the season as if he drags the team down. If he was really as off-the-pace as you're suggesting, he would be a lot worse than that.

And Anders Eriksson was once a +12 on the Blue Jackets and a +21 on the Red Wings, didn't make him a good player. All that +/- tells us is in Sven's case is that Baertschi has been playing sheltered minutes, which we all already knew.

 

[Anglesmith]

And Anders Eriksson was once a +12 on the Blue Jackets and a +21 on the Red Wings, didn't make him a good player. All that +/- tells us is in Sven's case is that Baertschi has been playing sheltered minutes, which we all already knew.

But that still doesn't jive with the fact that you think he's been outmatched in the defensive end.

 

[Calculon]

Yes. I too have been an intelligent Flames fan for too long to buy into this garbage. I also think that people are trying to mold players into their idea that every elite prospect is going to be a Johnny Toews or Datsuk. Backlund is great defensively but doesn't have the offensive skill to score goals on his own, from one end to the other. He needs line-mates to be contributing, just like Stajan.

Baertschi is also a play maker, often compared to Tanguay. Its no surprise that a Tanguay-hater is also criticizing Baertschi so much, but I digress... I'll give credit that Baertschi has been doing better on the back-check, but this "floating around" is Baertschi's style of game and his uncanny ability to stop, think and work smart, not hard. He's capitalizes when other players are too busy being a pitbull to make the smart play.

Yeah, I'm starting to think cerebral, intelligent albeit passive types of players like Baertschi and Tanguay simply don't fit in with the low brow, wall-to-wall show-me-something-tangible-every-shift type of games the Flames are trying to achieve. Baertschi, like Nugent-Hopkins or Tanguay, is a player than can have a really quiet 58 minutes, but do something extraordinarily dynamic in the other two that will at the very least, lead to some terrific scoring chances. But with the Flames wanting something noticeable every shift, maybe it'd be better for both the organization and Baertschi if they just traded him for a defensemen like Gormley while they still can.

 

[Lunatik]

But that still doesn't jive with the fact that you think he's been outmatched in the defensive end.

It doesn't jive with what you are saying either since he was on the ice for so many of goals that Hudler and Monahan scored. +/- is not a defensive stat and proves nothing about how ap layer plays defensively. Just tells us a gf/ga ratio.

 

[Anglesmith]

It doesn't jive with what you are saying either since he was on the ice for so many of goals that Hudler and Monahan scored. +/- is not a defensive stat and proves nothing about how ap layer plays defensively. Just tells us a gf/ga ratio.

How many goals did Hudler and Monahan score where Baertschi was on the ice but in no way involved? Really, if you go back through and look, the answer is very few. There are also plenty of situations where the line has been shafted in terms of getting a minus.

Perhaps it would be easier if you could just provide some examples of Baertschi's lack of effort creating a chance against? Not that I want to burden you with the responsibility or anything, but it sounds as if you're bursting to tell me of some.

 

[Lunatik]

How many goals did Hudler and Monahan score where Baertschi was on the ice but in no way involved? Really, if you go back through and look, the answer is very few. There are also plenty of situations where the line has been shafted in terms of getting a minus.

Perhaps it would be easier if you could just provide some examples of Baertschi's lack of effort creating a chance against? Not that I want to burden you with the responsibility or anything, but it sounds as if you're bursting to tell me of some.

I never said Baertschi was creating a bunch of chances against did I? When you have to make things up to prove a point all it does is tell me you have nothing.

 

[Anglesmith]

I never said Baertschi was creating a bunch of chances against did I? When you have to make things up to prove a point all it does is tell me you have nothing.

No, but you were saying that he wasn't working hard defensively. I assumed that you were trying to make the point that he was hurting the team.

 

[Lunatik]

No, but you were saying that he wasn't working hard defensively. I assumed that you were trying to make the point that he was hurting the team.

He is rarely one of the first guys back, he has not generated turnovers this year, in fact is shocked me to see he has not been credited with a single takeaway this year, that appeared to be one of his strong points in the past was his ability to steal the puck and turn it into an offensive opportunity for us. For example last year he was credited with 12 takeaways in 20 games.

I know stats like this aren't 100% accurate but that is still a very significant difference between last year and this year.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Why do they call Baertschi "Swiss Cheese"?

Because his game is full of holes.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Why do they call Baertschi "Swiss Cheese"?

Because his game is full of holes.

 

[Anglesmith]

He is rarely one of the first guys back, he has not generated turnovers this year, in fact is shocked me to see he has not been credited with a single takeaway this year, that appeared to be one of his strong points in the past was his ability to steal the puck and turn it into an offensive opportunity for us. For example last year he was credited with 12 takeaways in 20 games.

I know stats like this aren't 100% accurate but that is still a very significant difference between last year and this year.

That seems completely weird as a stat. I'm a little confused as to how takeaways are defined at this point, because I've seen him generating a lot of loose pucks and taking some away as well.

Anyway, is he really not the first guy back all that much? Because I've made a point of watching him specifically in that situation this year (as in, seeing if he picks up the right guy, if he's moving his feet etc.) and the opportunity arises quite frequently during games. It's something that I've been watching for specifically, and I have definitely not found that situation to be scarce.

 

[LukeD]

Why do they call Baertschi "Swiss Cheese"?

Because his game is full of holes.

 

[Calculon]

I would rather have blind faith that things will change than do nothing but seen the down side and be negative about everything.

Significant changes have been made in the last 30 years. Asking player to earn time is what most teams do, take the wings for example, even their top prospects often over see 2-3 years in the minors. They force the players to earn it.

Do you think just handing a player ice time works better? If they are playing well enough to justify it then great let them play if not, then spend the time developing them.

It's also hilarious that you are complaining about this right now when we have an 18 year old centre that was just drafted playing bigger minutes than Sven. But I suppose those are the same bullheaded tactics too right?

And I'd much rather be realistic about things then forever blindly following without being shown positive results of any kind. To each their own though.

The Wings have a history of success with their model of development, since a significant amount of the faith even when they it appears as though they leave prospects in the minors for too long. And the key difference between their approach and the Flames is that at the end of day, even if a prospect is struggling in the minors after spending a few seasons there, they still get a call up to the NHL to showcase their abilities. Wings give their prospects every opportunity to succeed, the Flames seemingly give theirs every chance to fail.

What you're describing is the same nonsensical paternalistic garbage approach the organization has taken since the beginning. 'Oh, but if you just give a player ice time, then they'll become all entitled and think they deserve everything on silver platter and will never work hard for anything.' It's like the idea of a professional athlete being innately driven and wanting to become the best regardless of petty motivational tactics is impossible.

I'm not suggesting the Flames mimic the Oilers with their extreme approach of ice time without consequence. What I am suggesting is the Flames look at the organizations around the league which have had noticeable success when it comes to churning out elite level talent, namely by giving their young prospects some rope and seeing how they do. If they struggle and if they show they're not ready, then they do things like cut their ice time or send them to the minors. And I'm referring to a specific type of prospect, guys like Backlund, Baertschi, Boyd, St.Louis, Savard, etc. Different standards for different types of players.