Jackman to be on line with Monahan

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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The amount of complaining over line-ups is getting unbearable. Are you guys really so thick headed to believe there is not a good reason players are sat? It's like you think Hartley is willing to lose just to spite different players. I can guarantee you that Hartley wants to win more than any of us do.

Or is the optimism for Sven so blind you are unable to see that he just has not been that good?
 

YMCMBYOLO

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Mar 30, 2009
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The amount of complaining over line-ups is getting unbearable. Are you guys really so thick headed to believe there is not a good reason players are sat? It's like you think Hartley is willing to lose just to spite different players. I can guarantee you that Hartley wants to win more than any of us do.

Or is the optimism for Sven so blind you are unable to see that he just has not been that good?

Then why is Jackman on the 3rd line with Monahan and Hudler?
 

InfinityIggy

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Jan 30, 2011
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The amount of complaining over line-ups is getting unbearable. Are you guys really so thick headed to believe there is not a good reason players are sat? It's like you think Hartley is willing to lose just to spite different players. I can guarantee you that Hartley wants to win more than any of us do.

Or is the optimism for Sven so blind you are unable to see that he just has not been that good?

Instead of continually saying "trust Hartley!", why not address the concerns people are actually taking with his choices.

Justify: Bouma in the top 6, Jackman on Monahan's line, How leaving Bart on the bench is a wise choice (either play him or send him to the Heat).
 

MarkGio

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Nov 6, 2010
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The amount of complaining over line-ups is getting unbearable. Are you guys really so thick headed to believe there is not a good reason players are sat? It's like you think Hartley is willing to lose just to spite different players. I can guarantee you that Hartley wants to win more than any of us do.

Or is the optimism for Sven so blind you are unable to see that he just has not been that good?

C'mon, Jackman has sucked and Baertschi and Backlund haven't been that bad
 

BVicious

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Jun 15, 2012
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The amount of complaining over line-ups is getting unbearable. Are you guys really so thick headed to believe there is not a good reason players are sat? It's like you think Hartley is willing to lose just to spite different players. I can guarantee you that Hartley wants to win more than any of us do.

Or is the optimism for Sven so blind you are unable to see that he just has not been that good?
Players Sven has been better than:

Glencross
Jones
galiardi
Bouma
Jackman
Grats


Maybe Stajan / Colborne.

Less mistakes, breaks out of our zone, creates offense, draws away defenders, skates hard, gets into dirty area's. Points, maybe not so good, doing what we need from all players above? Absolutly
 

InfinityIggy

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Players Sven has been better than:

Glencross
Jones
galiardi
Bouma
Jackman
Grats


Maybe Stajan / Colborne.

Less mistakes, breaks out of our zone, creates offense, draws away defenders, skates hard, gets into dirty area's. Points, maybe not so good, doing what we need from all players above? Absolutly

Don't bother AH thinks Baertschi is terrible.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Then why is Jackman on the 3rd line?
Do you actually believe that because he is starting on a line with Monahan and Hudler that he will actually stay there and play those minutes? :biglaugh:

It was like when Comeau was listed as the number 1 centre last year, it last all of about half a period of that. Players will double shift or Reinhart will work his way up to take those minutes from Jackman.

Like Comeau last year, this is sending a message not only to Sven but the entire team that they need to have a better work ethic or they will not be playing.
 

MarkGio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2010
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Players Sven has been better than:

Glencross
Jones
galiardi
Bouma
Jackman
Grats


Maybe Stajan / Colborne.

Less mistakes, breaks out of our zone, creates offense, draws away defenders, skates hard, gets into dirty area's. Points, maybe not so good, doing what we need from all players above? Absolutly

As of the last few games, I agree. Not so much Stajan, but Colborne for sure. Add Monahan to the list IMO.
 

InfinityIggy

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Do you actually believe that because he is starting on a line with Monahan and Hudler that he will actually stay there and play those minutes? :biglaugh:

It was like when Comeau was listed as the number 1 centre last year, it last all of about half a period of that. Players will double shift or Reinhart will work his way up to take those minutes from Jackman.

Like Comeau last year, this is sending a message not only to Sven but the entire team that they need to have a better work ethic or they will not be playing.

Looks like just Sven to me, as other under performers have not been benched. Yes, the strategy of using our "lesser" players to fill our top-6 worked with fantastic results last year. You will note Comeau was moved at the deadline. Nothing like finishing 6th last!
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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Instead of continually saying "trust Hartley!", why not address the concerns people are actually taking with his choices.

Justify: Bouma in the top 6, Jackman on Monahan's line, How leaving Bart on the bench is a wise choice (either play him or send him to the Heat).
It's about working harder. Jackman may be a 4th line player through and through, but unlike Baertschi he works hard every shift, in every zone, so does Bouma. It's a message to the guys on the team to work hard or you won't see ice time, it's not exactly tough to figure out.

C'mon, Jackman has sucked and Baertschi and Backlund haven't been that bad
Backlund has been solid defensively, but other than the occasional good play Backlund has been invisible offensively. Sven has not been good at all this year outside a few games, his effort levels are among the most inconsistent on the team.

Jackman may "suck" but you get the same effort level every shift and in every area of the ice. That is Hartley's point. Also when Jackman plays instead of someone else, he only plays some of the minutes, other players playing better also has an impact.

Players Sven has been better than:

Glencross
Jones
galiardi
Bouma
Jackman
Grats


Maybe Stajan / Colborne.

Less mistakes, breaks out of our zone, creates offense, draws away defenders, skates hard, gets into dirty area's. Points, maybe not so good, doing what we need from all players above? Absolutly
What, are you even watching the same Baertschi? Baertschi may be more talented than some if not all of those players, but he certainly has not been better than all of them and has not worked as hard or been as consistent as any of them.

Don't bother AH thinks Baertschi is terrible.
I have never said such a thing. Thinking he needs to work harder, is inconsistent and thinking he might need more development time in the AHL does not mean I hate him. If I hates him I would be saying we should trade him, not continue to develop him.
 

InfinityIggy

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It's about working harder. Jackman may be a 4th line player through and through, but unlike Baertschi he works hard every shift, in every zone, so does Bouma. It's a message to the guys on the team to work hard or you won't see ice time, it's not exactly tough to figure out.

Backlund has been solid defensively, but other than the occasional good play Backlund has been invisible offensively. Sven has not been good at all this year outside a few games, his effort levels are among the most inconsistent on the team.

Jackman may "suck" but you get the same effort level every shift and in every area of the ice. That is Hartley's point. Also when Jackman plays instead of someone else, he only plays some of the minutes, other players playing better also has an impact.

What, are you even watching the same Baertschi? Baertschi may be more talented than some if not all of those players, but he certainly has not been better than all of them and has not worked as hard or been as consistent as any of them.

I have never said such a thing. Thinking he needs to work harder, is inconsistent and thinking he might need more development time in the AHL does not mean I hate him. If I hates him I would be saying we should trade him, not continue to develop him.

Never said you hated him. I said you think he is terrible, as evidenced at the top of this very post.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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Looks like just Sven to me, as other under performers have not been benched. Yes, the strategy of using our "lesser" players to fill our top-6 worked with fantastic results last year. You will note Comeau was moved at the deadline. Nothing like finishing 6th last!
You expected a Stanley Cup this year or something? I seem to remember you believing that we would be near the bottom of the standings this year before the season. I want wins as much as the next guy, as you know I was dragged into this rebuild kicking and screaming. But now that we are there it needs to be done right and that means instilling work ethic and a sense of responsibility in all players. Giving talented players minutes because they are talented gives you what the Oilers have. Making talented players work hard for their minutes and earn their way gives you what Detroit has done over the past 20 years.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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Never said you hated him. I said you think he is terrible, as evidenced at the top of this very post.
Not ready =/= terrible.

I think Sven has 1st line talent, I just think it needs to be developed the right way. It will be the difference between him turning out like Hossa or like Hamsky.
 

Anglesmith

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Do you actually believe that because he is starting on a line with Monahan and Hudler that he will actually stay there and play those minutes? :biglaugh:

It was like when Comeau was listed as the number 1 centre last year, it last all of about half a period of that. Players will double shift or Reinhart will work his way up to take those minutes from Jackman.

So far, Hartley has been fairly stoic with keeping his profound line combinations together for an entire game. So I could definitely see Jackman remaining there. Backlund has been allowed to stay on the fourth line for an entire game even when he showed great offensive flair during the 30 seconds he got with a legitimate teammate.

Like Comeau last year, this is sending a message not only to Sven but the entire team that they need to have a better work ethic or they will not be playing.

II hit the nail on the head. It is only sending a message to two players. Guys like Jackman, Galiardi etc. are not being held accountable. The problem, for the last time, is not Baertschi's work ethic at all. Hartley's quotes have always stressed technical issues, and beyond that everyone watching the games sees the effort the Baertschi is exerting on every shift, yet he's treating this like an attitude problem.
 

Guido Sarducci

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Aug 7, 2012
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When key veteran players are on the IR the one positive thing that should come out of that is opportunities for young players to step into bigger roles. If Baertschi can't get top line/pp minutes when Glencross and Stempniak are out, when?

I hope that Johnny Gaudreau doesn't have the internet in his house.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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So far, Hartley has been fairly stoic with keeping his profound line combinations together for an entire game. So I could definitely see Jackman remaining there. Backlund has been allowed to stay on the fourth line for an entire game even when he showed great offensive flair during the 30 seconds he got with a legitimate teammate.



II hit the nail on the head. It is only sending a message to two players. Guys like Jackman, Galiardi etc. are not being held accountable. The problem, for the last time, is not Baertschi's work ethic at all. Hartley's quotes have always stressed technical issues, and beyond that everyone watching the games sees the effort the Baertschi is exerting on every shift, yet he's treating this like an attitude problem.
So you do believe Hartley will play Jackman for 15 minutes or so? Wow, I don't even have words fora that. Jackman will be sub-10 minutes like he always is.

Guys like Jackman and Galiardi work their ass off every shift. Baertschi does not. I'm not sure where you are seeing this baertschi effort, but it sure isn't anywhere in the defensive or neutral zones. And Hartley's comments, like Burke's have stressed playing well in all 3 zones and since when Baertschi actually does it he is effective in those zones, the problem is not technical, it's with the players commitment in the areas.
 

Anglesmith

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Guys like Jackman and Galiardi work their ass off every shift. Baertschi does not. I'm not sure where you are seeing this baertschi effort, but it sure isn't anywhere in the defensive or neutral zones.

I realize that Jackman and Galiardi play hard. I'm saying so does Baertschi. If you aren't seeing that, well...

I hate seeing people accuse others of not watching hockey, but I simply can't see how we can have been watching the same games.
 

BVicious

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Jun 15, 2012
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I appreciate the debate AH is giving here and some points are valid. In the list of players I believe Sven has outperformed this far is in each players specific role. Iggy was a horrible floater, Ovie is the worst, but you don't change their game when they excel at a different aspect.

If Hartley want Sven to skate as hard or fast as Galiardi (which he does) at least him on that line there won't be an offside everytime they are on the ice.

If Hartley wants Sven to play like Glencross, then he will get injured just as regularly as Glencross and score just as much. Sven can't play like Grats and Jacks.

If they want Sven to play in all 3 zones, play him on a line with different players who don't have great possession stats like Hudler/Monahan instead play him with a line that gets hemmed in our zone so he can work on it. Maybe they want him to play like Backlund, forget the offense side and excel at defense. Look how well that worked for Backlund.
 

InfinityIggy

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Not ready =/= terrible.

I think Sven has 1st line talent, I just think it needs to be developed the right way. It will be the difference between him turning out like Hossa or like Hamsky.

Except you said "he has not been good".

So what would you do with Bart then? Sit him on the bench for multiple games? Or send him to the AHL, I mean you are saying he isn't ready right? So either way, he shouldn't just be benched.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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I realize that Jackman and Galiardi play hard. I'm saying so does Baertschi. If you aren't seeing that, well...

I hate seeing people accuse others of not watching hockey, but I simply can't see how we can have been watching the same games.
We are both watching, but the difference you are so blind to his potential you are giving him a free pass, maybe that even a subconscious thing. Baertschi does some good things, but he does float alot too, he always has. That needs to be removed from his game if he is going to live up to his potential of an elite forward.
 

Lunatik

Registered User
Oct 12, 2012
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Except you said "he has not been good".

So what would you do with Bart then? Sit him on the bench for multiple games? Or send him to the AHL, I mean you are saying he isn't ready right? So either way, he shouldn't just be benched.
I have said multiple times that if his efforts aren't more consistent he should be sent to the AHL. I have no problem with Hartley benching him a couple games here and there, but if it extends beyond 3 consecutive games he should be sent down.

And yes I said he has not been good, but I feel the reason is that he is not prepared for the NHL. That means I feel he is in over his head, not that he is terrible. There is no fox for terrible.
 

InfinityIggy

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I have said multiple times that if his efforts aren't more consistent he should be sent to the AHL. I have no problem with Hartley benching him a couple games here and there, but if it extends beyond 3 consecutive games he should be sent down.

And yes I said he has not been good, but I feel the reason is that he is not prepared for the NHL. That means I feel he is in over his head, not that he is terrible. There is no fox for terrible.

If he isn't ready then he should be sent to the AHL no? Benching him for even 1 game should be viewed as a waste of time he could be spending developing, if that's your stance on him.
 

Calculon

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I'd have more faith in the Flames approach to development if a) it had demonstrated some modicum of success and b) if they weren't doing the exact same thing that's led to failure each and every time.

If one takes a look back at the Flames draft record all the way to 1990, it's a complete wasteland when it comes to elite talent. And the fact that they continue with the exact same tactics which have yet to show any semblance of success, i.e. the only way you play is if you play like a 30 year old vet who doesn't make any sort of mistakes, otherwise prepare to waste away on the bottom six or press box for a few years before being declared a bust, is bizarre.

Baertschi isn't going to learn anything by sitting in the press and watching the likes of Galiardi, Jackman, Jones, Colborne, and Glencross give away the puck or miss their defensive zone assignments only to be rewarded with more ice time. Nor is Backlund ever going to develop into anything more than a bottom six defensive specialist (and that's somehow a bad thing according to a select few dimwits) if he never gets the chance to play in the offensive zone. Honestly, the level of cognitive dissonance in this case is just mind boggling - when people can with a straight face say that Backlund is on the 4th line because he isn't producing offensively, but at the same acknowledge that it's terribly hard to produce on the 4th line when your linemates are usually Jackman and McGrattan, and yet still believe it's up to Backlund to somehow, magically, produce, even though they know he's not going to, you know something is wrong with their thought process, assuming they even have one.

Anyway, given the Flames record when icing sub par rosters in the hopes of making a prospect that they should feel bad for being naturally talented and making the rest of the grinders feel ashamed about themselves, maybe Hartley really does support the tank. Break apart for Reinhart as the Oilers fan say.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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If he isn't ready then he should be sent to the AHL no? Benching him for even 1 game should be viewed as a waste of time he could be spending developing, if that's your stance on him.
Being coached by NHL coaches has it's benefits too don't get me wrong. That are much closer to this than I am, if they feel they are close to a break though with him then no they shouldn't send him down. However if they do not feel this will change and he is not ready to play Friday, then yes send him down for the weekend. It's not like the Heat usually play weekdays anyway.
 

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