Tribute Jack Campbell Discussion

[Buds17]

Upcoming UFA goalies who might fit the bill include Halak, Hotly, Vanacek, and Husso. We have no idea who might shake free (who expected someone like Ned to be available out of Carolina?) I really want Jack back, but it has to fit or else it doesn't make sense.

I worry about that being a less than inspiring lot. Holtby is having a rebound season and appears to be the best of the bunch. I'm not too sure about Halak being in a tandem going forward. Husso doesn't have much in the way of experience. Finally, I believe Vanecek has more one year of RFA left IIRC. I'd of course be looking too far ahead at this point as we'll have to see how the season unfolds with both Mrazek and Campbell here. No doubt the preference is to have Campbell re-sign.

 

[Nylanderthal]

They could - but goalies (good ones) can be hard to find. I'm not sure Mrazek is part of the solution either.

Literally nothing about his history indicates he can't be a part of a quality situation here. He was the 1A on some very good Carolina teams these last few years, and was part of a tandem the last few seasons Detroit was any good. He's not even 30 yet either so its not like he's old, especially for a goalie (in fact he's a month younger than Soupy.)

 

[DraftSchmaft]

We don't have enough information to decide if we'd give Campbell 6 mil. Let's see how he does in the playoffs. If he takes us on a deep run or wins the cup I'd lock him up at Markstrom money until he's 35. If he wins a cup and wants more than 6...that doesn't matter. We'll be too busy partying to care who stays or leaves.

I'm sure 6+ mil is just a strategic starting point to ensure they don't get less than Lehner though.

 

[The Podium]

We don't have enough information to decide if we'd give Campbell 6 mil. Let's see how he does in the playoffs. If he takes us on a deep run or wins the cup I'd lock him up at Markstrom money until he's 35. If he wins a cup and wants more than 6...that doesn't matter. We'll be too busy partying to care who stays or leaves.

I'm sure 6+ mil is just a strategic starting point to ensure they don't get less than Lehner though.

This. Well said.

 

[The Podium]

He seems to have been a winner throughout his career. 3 gold medals in IIHF events, solid numbers in the NHL games he has been able to get into. Boggles the mind really that it has taken him this long to get appreciated. Someone posted something about him being a late bloomer. Seems like this guy has been top notch everytime he was given a chance.

He was mentally fragile, LA hired a sports psychologist to help him through it IIRC and then Dubas/Keene/fate was the first one to give him a real shot.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He was mentally fragile, LA hired a sports psychologist to help him through it IIRC and then Dubas/Keene/fate was the first one to give him a real shot.

That sounds familiar. It also sounds like ancient history and not a big issue.

 

[The Podium]

That sounds familiar. It also sounds like ancient history and not a big issue.

Nope, he clearly seems like he’s passed that, but responding to the OP that’s what took him so long to establish himself.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Without knowing what went down in the summer, it is kind of hard to judge this overall. I also think the benefit of hindsight is very strong here. Minus the ELCs (Sandin and Lily) and Spezza (he's making minimum, he can't make any less!) I've seen every player's contract on this team complained about in some way or another. Some more than others. And ya, some are very, very deserving of the complaining.

Yet, whatever Campbell would have signed for this summer looks like it would be deemed a great contract. That is the benefit of hindsight. Conversely, had it been Campbell injured on day one and Mrazek playing vezina calibre, his contract would have been applauded and deemed a steal, while there would have been plenty of "thank goodness we didn't sign an injury-prone Campbell".

As well, had Mrazek not been signed and Hutch (or a new equivalent) was the backup who was then promoted to starter, Dubas would have been criticized for not spending some cap space on a proper backup.

I think hindsight is making it too easy to sway to one side when we just don't know what has happened in negotiations.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Based on nothing in particular, I think Campbell will get somewhere in the fives.

 

[Confucius]

Without knowing what went down in the summer, it is kind of hard to judge this overall. I also think the benefit of hindsight is very strong here. Minus the ELCs (Sandin and Lily) and Spezza (he's making minimum, he can't make any less!) I've seen every player's contract on this team complained about in some way or another. Some more than others. And ya, some are very, very deserving of the complaining.

Yet, whatever Campbell would have signed for this summer looks like it would be deemed a great contract. That is the benefit of hindsight. Conversely, had it been Campbell injured on day one and Mrazek playing vezina calibre, his contract would have been applauded and deemed a steal, while there would have been plenty of "thank goodness we didn't sign an injury-prone Campbell".

As well, had Mrazek not been signed and Hutch (or a new equivalent) was the backup who was then promoted to starter, Dubas would have been criticized for not spending some cap space on a proper backup.

I think hindsight is making it too easy to sway to one side when we just don't know what has happened in negotiations.

Hindsight for some maybe but I believed we were going with Soup when we sat Andersen and played Soup. Reaffirmed when we let Andersen walk. Taking on Mrzak and it being mid January and not having Soup extended is the surprise.

 

[Mess]

Hindsight for some maybe but I believed we were going with Soup when we sat Andersen and played Soup. Reaffirmed when we let Andersen walk. Taking on Mrzak and it being mid January and not having Soup extended is the surprise.

Leafs gambled and are currently losing in contract terms, but gaining via on-ice results.

This was suppose to be a 1A/1B tandem with Mrazek sharing the net. If you have that situation where Campbell is only expected to play 40 games or so then his salary would reflect a part-time starter wage in the range of Mrazek and combined you would have Campbell about ~ $4 mil + Mrazek @ $3.8 mil = $7.8 mil commitment combined.

Campbell has played 28 of Leafs 36 games and Mrazek only 4. Campbell's outstanding numbers and workload and now All-star nomination have their camp sitting here asking for 1A starters money likely.

For the Leafs to give Campbell starters money based on +65 games played you really need to get rid of Mrazek as you can't afford a $3.8 mil goalie playing < 20 games, and find a cheap backup and also be fully committed to move to a true starter and backup pay structure and away from a 1A/1B equal tandem. IMO

If one side is asking for true starter money based on his starts and his stats and the other side is thinking equal tandem, then there will be a large gap in contract negotiations as a result of philosophical difference and value to the team based on usage. Now they have to let this play out through the playoffs likely as Campbell continues to "prove it" and set his value based on the full season and playoffs.

 

[Confucius]

Leafs gambled and are currently losing in contract terms, but gaining via on-ice results.

This was suppose to be a 1A/1B tandem with Mrazek sharing the net. If you have that situation where Campbell is only expected to play 40 games or so then his salary would reflect a part-time starter wage in the range of Mrazek and combined you would have about Campbell ~ $4 mil + Mrazek @ $3.8 mil = $7.8 mil commitment combined.

Campbell has played 28 of Leafs 36 games and Mrazek only 4. Campbell's outstanding numbers and workload and now All-star nomination have their camp sitting here asking for 1A starters money likely.

For the Leafs to give Campbell starters money based on +65 games played you really need to get rid of Mrazek as you can't afford an $3.8 mil goalie playing < 20 games, and find a cheap backup and also be fully committed to move to a true starter and backup pay structure and away from a 1A/1B equal tandem. IMO

If one side is asking for true starter money based on his stats and the other side is thinking equal tandem then there will be a large gap in contract negotiations as a result of philosophical difference and value to the team. Now they have to let this play out through the playoffs likely as Campbell continues to "prove it" and set his value based on the full season and playoffs.

That is where I had the disconnect, The 1A/1B thing. I assumed we would be taking the other option. I would rather go with a starter and backup just as we have in the past.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yet, whatever Campbell would have signed for this summer looks like it would be deemed a great contract. That is the benefit of hindsight. Conversely, had it been Campbell injured on day one and Mrazek playing vezina calibre, his contract would have been applauded and deemed a steal, while there would have been plenty of "thank goodness we didn't sign an injury-prone Campbell".

I said the minute the season was over that extending Campbell should be our #1 priority for the summer so no hindsight in my case. Every contract is a gamble, every contract might look good down the road or it might not, that's the nature of the business. My choice would have been to gamble on Campbell and today it looks like my judgement was correct but a year from now, who knows.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's always amusing seeing people try to pretend that they're not utilizing hindsight when they very clearly are using hindsight to dismiss the potential team-crippling risks associated with their desired past action.

It's also amusing to see people try to pretend that they know what went down in negotiations last year in order to form their narrative. It's so easy to sit at home and say "Sign this guy! Not signing him is a failure!", and you don't have to concern yourself with things like whether that guy is actually willing to sign, and if they are, whether they're willing to sign for a reasonable amount relative to what they've shown.

 

[Legion34]

On the plus side. Kalgren looks great in the AHL and the oilers would die for mrazek.

my guess is still that soup cools down and ends up in the 4.5-5.5 range. Call up kalgren and end up with

5.5-6.5 on goalies

 

[sparxx87]

I assume the thinking was that they would go with a tandem which is logical but then Mrazek got hurt.

I'm sold on Campbell, in fact I was sold on him last summer. Can never be 100% sure of course but I'm sold enough that I'd get him signed and then focus on bumping up Mrazek's value - not doing that could become a huge problem because it's almost impossible to see how we could afford them both next season. The only way that comes to mind is trade Marner and be OK with spending ~10 million of the cap on goalies, not sure anyone wants to see that (though it might be preferable to not being able to afford Campbell).

Fair enough. I guess I subscribe to the defined #1.

I like Campbell a lot, but it’s hard to shake the memory of the back half of that Habs series where he wasn’t very good, and that stinker to break the ice in game 7 was a back breaker… I’d like to see him perform in the playoffs before committing. That’s just me. His mental game was long a question mark and I’m not sure we have definite answers as to whether those are behind him.

That and work load. Durability can still be a question.

Term is key. Something short for market would be ideal but if he wants 4+ years, I’d be pretty nervous about it… Problem is, Mrazek isn’t a solution so they’re over a barrel.

 

[Mess]

I said the minute the season was over that extending Campbell should be our #1 priority for the summer so no hindsight in my case. Every contract is a gamble, every contract might look good down the road or it might not, that's the nature of the business. My choice would have been to gamble on Campbell and today it looks like my judgement was correct but a year from now, who knows.

Leafs letting their former proven starting goalie Freddy Andersen go for $4.5 mil X 2, and then signing Petr Mrazek to 3 years at $3.8 mil to set up a tandem 1A/1B scenario with Campbell suggests a misreading of the landscape and belief in Campbell by Leafs management that is now going to end up costing Leafs a lot more Cap and Salary to retain him.

After seeing Campbell perform last year (albeit in the weaker QofC North Div) a lot of Leaf Nation would have been okay with Campbell doubling his $1.65 mil and getting the Mrazek contract. There were still questions surrounding Campbell's durability and his resume which included a lack of experience having not started more than 30 games in any season to date.

With each passing game that Campbell starts and shines in the Leafs net, while Mrazek holds the clipboard and sits only increases JC next contract value by not signing him, and makes Mrazek contract in comparison look like the wrong signing now.

 

[sparxx87]

Because half of a season of poor injury luck doesn’t make or break a guys value? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Wait, you were the guy talking about other people who don’t follow the rest of the league, right?

Why did Detroit discard him for a mid round pick (maybe 2) several years ago despite solid stats and at an age where he’d be coming into his prime?

 

[BlueBaron]

On the plus side. Kalgren looks great in the AHL and the oilers would die for mrazek.

my guess is still that soup cools down and ends up in the 4.5-5.5 range. Call up kalgren and end up with

5.5-6.5 on goalies

I wondered if the Oil might want him but his health is too risky for them I'd wager.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Fair enough. I guess I subscribe to the defined #1.

I like Campbell a lot, but it’s hard to shake the memory of the back half of that Habs series where he wasn’t very good, and that stinker to break the ice in game 7 was a back breaker… I’d like to see him perform in the playoffs before committing. That’s just me. His mental game was long a question mark and I’m not sure we have definite answers as to whether those are behind him.

That and work load. Durability can still be a question.

Term is key. Something short for market would be ideal but if he wants 4+ years, I’d be pretty nervous about it… Problem is, Mrazek isn’t a solution so they’re over a barrel.

Everyone has bad moments but IIRC Jack only let in one bad goal in 7 playoff games, I just can't complain about that. Term is a big question, off the top of my head a 4 year deal might have been my preferred term and it's hard to see Campbell not being OK with that.

I agree Mrazek isn't a solution so we're absolutely over a barrel. I think I said it yesterday - how he handles this is the most important decision Dubas will make since he took over. He f***ed up not getting Jack extended last summer and he better not f*** it up again. It's going to be tough though, overpaying Jack somewhat last summer if that's what it took would have been a no brainer for me as it would have been relatively inexpensive. That's not the case any more though but our options are now much more limited, since we don't have Jack under contract for another year as we did last summer - you could say we're quickly running out of runway room so ... yeah Dubas is in a tough spot.

After seeing Campbell perform last year (albeit in the weaker QofC North Div) a lot of Leaf Nation would have been okay with Campbell doubling his $1.65 mil and getting the Mrazek contract. There were still questions surrounding Campbell's durability and his resume which included a lack of experience having not started more than 30 games in any season to date.

With each passing game that Campbell starts and shines in the Leafs net, while Mrazek holds the clipboard and sits only increases JC next contract value by not signing him, and makes Mrazek contract in comparison look like the wrong signing now.

I would have been more than fine with it. And BTW the North division wasn't weak in terms of what goalies had to face, if anything the opposite is true.

 

[Legion34]

I wondered if the Oil might want him but his health is too risky for them I'd wager.

he had a groin pull and a broken finger. Campbell had a groin pull last year. Freddie had a banged up knee. Raanta was always hurt.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why did Detroit discard him for a mid round pick (maybe 2) several years ago despite solid stats and at an age where he’d be coming into his prime?

Detroit, a tanking bottom-5 team that year, sold a pending UFA goalie at the trade deadline for two conditional mid-round picks, in the season after he posted a 0.901 SV%, and they handed the keys over to Howard, who they had already committed big money to and was signed beyond that year. I'm not sure why you find this to be unusual, and I'm not sure how somebody who "follows the league" wouldn't know this.

 

[BlueBaron]

he had a groin pull and a broken finger. Campbell had a groin pull last year. Freddie had a banged up knee. Raanta was always hurt.

Right. Is your point all goalies get injured? Mrazek is pretty injury prone and I think that would concern Edmonton. I'm not clear what you are trying to express.

 

[sparxx87]

Everyone has bad moments but IIRC Jack only let in one bad goal in 7 playoff games, I just can't complain about that. Term is a big question, off the top of my head a 4 year deal might have been my preferred term and it's hard to see Campbell not being OK with that.

I agree Mrazek isn't a solution so we're absolutely over a barrel. I think I said it yesterday - how he handles this is the most important decision Dubas will make since he took over. He f***ed up not getting Jack extended last summer and he better not f*** it up again. It's going to be tough though, overpaying Jack somewhat last summer if that's what it took would have been a no brainer for me as it would have been relatively inexpensive. That's not the case any more though but our options are now much more limited, since we don't have Jack under contract for another year as we did last summer - you could say we're quickly running out of runway room so ... yeah Dubas is in a tough spot.



I would have been more than fine with it. And BTW the North division wasn't weak in terms of what goalies had to face, if anything the opposite is true.

Yeah, the stench is always subjective and while I agree it was only one pee wee wrister, there was a few others, especially in the last few games that you might not love either.

And generally the term, I’d agree with you… but this is Campbell’s one and only payday. I wouldn’t blame him for trying to maximize it. He might get 6x6 on the open market - how much less would he have to take to stay with the Leafs?

You’re right, big decisions looming.

 

[ShaneFalco]

That is where I had the disconnect, The 1A/1B thing. I assumed we would be taking the other option. I would rather go with a starter and backup just as we have in the past.

Yup we don't have the cap space to be running 1a/b goalies
Did they really think Mrazek could step in as #1 if need be?