Buffalo Bills It's the Off-Season. Go.

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Der Jaeger

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I am not really enamored with the WR group after the top 3. They all have a wart or 2, and Idk where I land on them.

The top 3 are also kinda like the McEichel draft year. If they were all in separate drafts, they would all most likely be the #1 WR overall.

I don't wanna sit at 28 and just take whoever. I think we move back into the 40s or move UP to grab one of these top 3. We've talked plenty on the move down scenario, which, I think we all agree is the most likely. THAT BEING SAID.....

Most mocks I have seen have one of the top 3 WRs there at #9 overall. So, what does it take?

The Chiefs traded the 27th overall pick to the Bills in 2017 to move up to 10th overall. They included a 3rd in 2017 (91st overall) and their 2018 1st round pick.

Bills at 28th and moving to #9 should be very similar. Would you trade #28, the equivalent of a Bills 3rd (since we don't have ours and got screwed in the comp picks), and sacrifice the 2025 1st rounder to land one of the top 3?
I wouldn't do it.

It would take the Bills' 1st and 2nd in 2024 and 1st in 2025 to get that type of deal done. Or 2025 2nd, if they don't want to go as high.

The Bills don't need a #1 receiver. They need a boundary receiver who can pull coverage deep. Troy Franklin and Devontez Walker can do that.

Beane didn't take Kincaid last season as a secondary weapon. He's going to be the #1 receiver as soon as mid-season, 2024. Teams like KC and SF, with high end tight ends, are able to surround them with receivers who have specific skill sets, and still maintain offensive effectiveness.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Beane double dip on boundary receivers (I mocked Walker and Brenden Rice to the Bills last week), and then move on from Diggs sooner than we think. But the team doesn't need to mortgage premium draft assets for a receiver.
 

Rowley Birkin

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Their salary cap situation is much different than it was when they signed Poyer and Hyde, as well. As is the changing financial landscape for safeties as teams are playing more 2 high shells and can get away with investing less at the safety position and getting good enough play at that spot.

Things can always change on draft night when a guy falls that they do not expect and it is a "run to the podium" moment like with Torrence last year. Beane talked about how they didn't plan on going OG early. But, when Torrence fell to them, he was too good a value to pass up in that spot.

That is how I feel about the safety position. I think they do not see it as a spot where they need to invest an early pick at the position. Beane has talked about the trenches as where he will overinvest, for example.

But, if there is a guy they really like and he stands out on the board, then I could see it happening. But, I doubt it plays out that way. We shall see.


2 CBs in their first 6 picks is something...
We were discussing position groups where they are likely to make picks based upon need / available snaps. Safety is certainly on that list. Even if you don't think they need a starter (which is a huge stretch), you certainly can't go into a season with two relatively unproven starters & absolutely nothing behind them (with all due respect to Lewis/Hamlin).

I didn't say they would invest an early pick (ie 28), the only way that makes sense is DeJean & he's more than just a safety.

To expand on one of my previous points :

- Rapp only played 39 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Hyde not been hurt (74 %).

- Edwards played 57 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Bryan Cook not been hurt (54 %).

One more final point:

- Curtis Samuel gets 3/24m - but WR is an eternal need, the only position to ever consider drafting. Samuel can't possibly replace Davis' # of snaps (i won't even mention other guys such as Kincaid/Shakir).

- Mike Edwards gets 1/2.8 - but he's a bona fide starter that they can't possibly improve upon....

Does not compute.
 
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Der Jaeger

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re: Diggs

If Beane trades him post-June 1st, that's $8.8M against this season's cap and $22M against next season's cap in dead money. Beane may be able to make next season work with the 2024 rollover money.

If Beane waits a year, which would be wise, and designates him as a post-June 1 release or makes a trade work, he counts for $8.8M against the 2025 cap and $13M against the 2026 cap.

I think Beane will go one more season with Diggs, and then move on. By that time the bulk of targets will be going to Kincaid.
 

truthbluth

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I am not really enamored with the WR group after the top 3. They all have a wart or 2, and Idk where I land on them.

The top 3 are also kinda like the McEichel draft year. If they were all in separate drafts, they would all most likely be the #1 WR overall.

I don't wanna sit at 28 and just take whoever. I think we move back into the 40s or move UP to grab one of these top 3. We've talked plenty on the move down scenario, which, I think we all agree is the most likely. THAT BEING SAID.....

Most mocks I have seen have one of the top 3 WRs there at #9 overall. So, what does it take?

The Chiefs traded the 27th overall pick to the Bills in 2017 to move up to 10th overall. They included a 3rd in 2017 (91st overall) and their 2018 1st round pick.

Bills at 28th and moving to #9 should be very similar. Would you trade #28, the equivalent of a Bills 3rd (since we don't have ours and got screwed in the comp picks), and sacrifice the 2025 1st rounder to land one of the top 3?
No
 

Rowley Birkin

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I am not really enamored with the WR group after the top 3. They all have a wart or 2, and Idk where I land on them.

The top 3 are also kinda like the McEichel draft year. If they were all in separate drafts, they would all most likely be the #1 WR overall.

I don't wanna sit at 28 and just take whoever. I think we move back into the 40s or move UP to grab one of these top 3. We've talked plenty on the move down scenario, which, I think we all agree is the most likely. THAT BEING SAID.....

Most mocks I have seen have one of the top 3 WRs there at #9 overall. So, what does it take?

The Chiefs traded the 27th overall pick to the Bills in 2017 to move up to 10th overall. They included a 3rd in 2017 (91st overall) and their 2018 1st round pick.

Bills at 28th and moving to #9 should be very similar. Would you trade #28, the equivalent of a Bills 3rd (since we don't have ours and got screwed in the comp picks), and sacrifice the 2025 1st rounder to land one of the top 3?
I agree with everything you say in terms of player analysis - but there is zero chance of anyone trading up like that.

Teams only typically make those type of moves in desperation to land franchise QBs. Receivers - even very good ones - aren't close to being as valuable.
 
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Rowley Birkin

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I wouldn't do it.

It would take the Bills' 1st and 2nd in 2024 and 1st in 2025 to get that type of deal done. Or 2025 2nd, if they don't want to go as high.

The Bills don't need a #1 receiver. They need a boundary receiver who can pull coverage deep. Troy Franklin and Devontez Walker can do that.

Beane didn't take Kincaid last season as a secondary weapon. He's going to be the #1 receiver as soon as mid-season, 2024. Teams like KC and SF, with high end tight ends, are able to surround them with receivers who have specific skill sets, and still maintain offensive effectiveness.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Beane double dip on boundary receivers (I mocked Walker and Brenden Rice to the Bills last week), and then move on from Diggs sooner than we think. But the team doesn't need to mortgage premium draft assets for a receiver.
Great post - although i don't agree about double dipping at WR this draft. I don't see the roster space for that, given that i also don't see them moving on from Justin Shorter so soon. Year two is when we typically see these mid round WRs start to flourish.

I also don't agree that they HAVE to move on from Diggs. It's possible after next season as you detailed in your later post - but it's still a big dead cap hit to take & Diggs isn't the type who will fall off a cliff past 30. If he does leave i bet it will solely be off-field related.
 

TehDoak

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I agree with everything you say in terms of player analysis - but there is zero chance of anyone trading up like that.

Teams only typically make those type of moves in desperation to land franchise QBs. Receivers - even very good ones - aren't close to being as valuable.

Yeah, I'm not packaging a 2025 1st for a WR. Early in the process I suggested trading everything for MHJr, but in reality, the best receivers aren't always the early picks. In fact, I'm not even sure that MHjr is the best WR in this draft class anymore.

If the team feels that there is a legit franchise WR to be had at our 1st+2nd round pick range (late teens), I wouldn't be upset about going up to get them.
 

Husko

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Another tie! Fashanu and Latu both get 40% of the vote. Dejean the add.

New poll: 2024 HF Bills Big Board 8

1. Marvin Harrison Jr., WR, Ohio State (88%)
2. Malik Nabers, WR, LSU (83%)
3. Rome Odunze, WR, Washington (100%)
4. Joe Alt, OT, Notre Dame (38%)
4. Dallas Turner, DE, Alabama (38%)
6. Olu Fashanu, OT, Penn State (40%)
6. Laiatu Latu, DE, UCLA (40%)
 
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Dubi Doo

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Im holding out hope we'll snag another S. We still have some cap to throw around. Blackmon is still one of my top targets, but not sure if Edwards plays his role or not.
 

Der Jaeger

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Great post - although i don't agree about double dipping at WR this draft. I don't see the roster space for that, given that i also don't see them moving on from Justin Shorter so soon. Year two is when we typically see these mid round WRs start to flourish.

I also don't agree that they HAVE to move on from Diggs. It's possible after next season as you detailed in your later post - but it's still a big dead cap hit to take & Diggs isn't the type who will fall off a cliff past 30. If he does leave i bet it will solely be off-field related.
I completely agree with your points on Diggs, but something in my gut tells me that they need to get Allen away from having a true #1 wide receiver. At least away from one who is older and demands the ball.

Diggs was essential for Allen early on, when he wasn’t sure where to go with the ball and could just go to Diggs. But Allen is past that time. He needs to throw to the open receiver. Sometimes that doesn’t jive with having a true #1.

Just a gut feeling but I think Beane is moving on from Diggs sooner than we think.

About having too many receivers, that’s easy. Shorter didn’t have a hamstring injury all season.
 

Jim Bob

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We were discussing position groups where they are likely to make picks based upon need / available snaps. Safety is certainly on that list. Even if you don't think they need a starter (which is a huge stretch), you certainly can't go into a season with two relatively unproven starters & absolutely nothing behind them (with all due respect to Lewis/Hamlin).

I didn't say they would invest an early pick (ie 28), the only way that makes sense is DeJean & he's more than just a safety.

To expand on one of my previous points :

- Rapp only played 39 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Hyde not been hurt (74 %).

- Edwards played 57 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Bryan Cook not been hurt (54 %).

One more final point:

- Curtis Samuel gets 3/24m - but WR is an eternal need, the only position to ever consider drafting. Samuel can't possibly replace Davis' # of snaps (i won't even mention other guys such as Kincaid/Shakir).

- Mike Edwards gets 1/2.8 - but he's a bona fide starter that they can't possibly improve upon....

Does not compute.
The hype for drafting a WR early is mostly about trying to find a future #1 WR for when Diggs is done in Buffalo and not about available snaps/targets in 2024.

If you open up the conversation to longer term needs, OT bubbles up if they have questions about being willing/able to extend Brown after 2024. And I think that is where safety could come into the conversation. But, I think the way Beane has talked about the safety position and what he values (IQ & playmaking), those are things you can get on day 3.

I expect a safety pick. I just expect it on day 3 and not in the 1st or 2nd round. The earliest I foresee it happening is if they trade up into the 3rd for one. And maybe it is one of the handful of safeties that Jahmile Addae coached at Miami and Georgia.
 

truthbluth

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We were discussing position groups where they are likely to make picks based upon need / available snaps. Safety is certainly on that list. Even if you don't think they need a starter (which is a huge stretch), you certainly can't go into a season with two relatively unproven starters & absolutely nothing behind them (with all due respect to Lewis/Hamlin).

I didn't say they would invest an early pick (ie 28), the only way that makes sense is DeJean & he's more than just a safety.

To expand on one of my previous points :

- Rapp only played 39 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Hyde not been hurt (74 %).

- Edwards played 57 % defensive snaps last year, which would have been less had Bryan Cook not been hurt (54 %).

One more final point:

- Curtis Samuel gets 3/24m - but WR is an eternal need, the only position to ever consider drafting. Samuel can't possibly replace Davis' # of snaps (i won't even mention other guys such as Kincaid/Shakir).

- Mike Edwards gets 1/2.8 - but he's a bona fide starter that they can't possibly improve upon....

Does not compute.
I don’t believe that there is a plug and play safety in this draft. Couple that with the fact that two high safeties ironically reduces the need for a high end talent at safety, and I think it should be unnecessary to spend a high pick there. Now, in many of my mocks, I end up with Kam Kinchens in the 2nd, or, more preferably with a 3rd picked up in a trade down, but that usually because there was a run on 2nd round WRs, or edges. I think you have to come away from this draft with one of the top 15 WRs or you run the risk of falling behind in the arms race. And the Bills are extremely thin at Edge. Those are the position I think you HAVE to address early. Safety can and should wait. If they can trade back or up to get a 3rd, that’s the sweet spot for safety, IMO.
 

Jim Bob

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Ladd McConkey (not a lot of college production & injuries) and Xavier Worthy (drops) are the two WR prospects that I am afraid that I am letting their pros (McConkey's separation ability and Worthy's blazing straight line speed) allow me to completely ignore how the cons could limit them in the NFL.
 
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Rowley Birkin

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I completely agree with your points on Diggs, but something in my gut tells me that they need to get Allen away from having a true #1 wide receiver. At least away from one who is older and demands the ball.

Diggs was essential for Allen early on, when he wasn’t sure where to go with the ball and could just go to Diggs. But Allen is past that time. He needs to throw to the open receiver. Sometimes that doesn’t jive with having a true #1.

Just a gut feeling but I think Beane is moving on from Diggs sooner than we think.

About having too many receivers, that’s easy. Shorter didn’t have a hamstring injury all season.
As i said - if Diggs leaves it's only because the off-field stuff becomes more of a problem than the dead cap / loss of his on-field talents would be. It might happen - but i think deep down Diggs simply wants to be a winner & he has as good a chance at that in Buffalo as anywhere. The chances of him leaving after next season are remote.
The hype for drafting a WR early is mostly about trying to find a future #1 WR for when Diggs is done in Buffalo and not about available snaps/targets in 2024.

If you open up the conversation to longer term needs, OT bubbles up if they have questions about being willing/able to extend Brown after 2024. And I think that is where safety could come into the conversation. But, I think the way Beane has talked about the safety position and what he values (IQ & playmaking), those are things you can get on day 3.

I expect a safety pick. I just expect it on day 3 and not in the 1st or 2nd round. The earliest I foresee it happening is if they trade up into the 3rd for one. And maybe it is one of the handful of safeties that Jahmile Addae coached at Miami and Georgia.
Bolded 1 - I've made the arguement multiple times before - but that is a dumb strategy for a 'win now' team in the middle of a cap crunch. We need those high picks to be immediate contributors every year. Just look at our friends in KC for a blueprint ...

It's especially dumb since Diggs is contracted for a number of years & you don't even need to 'replace' him. Refer to post immediately above responding to @Der Jaeger re why i think replacing Diggs isn't necessary. Also read DJ's own post further above re the structure of the offence as we move forward. This is very insightful & likely completely lost on the 'WR or bust' crowd.

Bolded 2 - i love that you mentioned this because outside of DeJean, Kinchens is the guy I want. Hoping his bad combine allows him to fall.
I don’t believe that there is a plug and play safety in this draft. Couple that with the fact that two high safeties ironically reduces the need for a high end talent at safety, and I think it should be unnecessary to spend a high pick there. Now, in many of my mocks, I end up with Kam Kinchens in the 2nd, or, more preferably with a 3rd picked up in a trade down, but that usually because there was a run on 2nd round WRs, or edges. I think you have to come away from this draft with one of the top 15 WRs or you run the risk of falling behind in the arms race. And the Bills are extremely thin at Edge. Those are the position I think you HAVE to address early. Safety can and should wait. If they can trade back or up to get a 3rd, that’s the sweet spot for safety, IMO.
I think you & I have many similar preferences.

R1 EDGE, R2 WR, then a trade up for Kinchens would be a great draft in my book - assuming i didn't hate the particular R1/R2 picks.

Kinchens is a playmaker who would instantly make an impact. DeJean would have an even bigger effect - on the way the D plays on the whole far beyond safety play in a vacuum.




I know the "WR or bust" fans will be upset if the Bills take JPJ in the 1st. But, he is one of the C/G prospects that I would not be upset with in the 1st.

Said it above but I think JPJ is the best possible R1 pick we could realistically make. The problem is that i don't see him being available at 28. For sure he's not getting past Dallas.
 

Jim Bob

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Said it above but I think JPJ is the best possible R1 pick we could realistically make. The problem is that i don't see him being available at 28. For sure he's not getting past Dallas.
It is going to be really interesting to see what DEs, 3T DTs, and IOL are on the board at 28. I think those are the prospects that are most likely to make McBeane not draft a WR in round 1. And I think there will be at least a couple guys among those three spots that are intriguing to the Bills when they get past pick 22 or 23.
 

TehDoak

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Allen rattles off the top 9 WRs in the draft pretty quick, included that he's been watching combine videos.

Second tier guys he talked about (going through the list)

Brian Thomas
Adonai Mitchell
Keon Coleman
Troy Franklin
Xavier Worthy
Xavier Legette

The Franchise is watching the draft board very carefully it seems.
 
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Der Jaeger

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Ladd McConkey (not a lot of college production & injuries) and Xavier Worthy (drops) are the two WR prospects that I am afraid that I am letting their pros (McConkey's separation ability and Worthy's blazing straight line speed) allow me to completely ignore how the cons could limit them in the NFL.

Rice does pretty well in this chart.
 
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Jim Bob

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Rice does pretty well in this chart.
So does Troy Franklin. And we know he is a guy that the Bills brought in for a look.

It is also interesting to me that Rice's teammate Tahj Washington does well on this chart, too. I wonder if he is a day 3 guy that they might look at if he's there.


Washington is a talented return man and has some real dog in him on coverage teams. He should go on Day 3 and will fight for a roster spot as a WR5 with special teams value.

They might need a return guy...
 
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Der Jaeger

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So does Troy Franklin. And we know he is a guy that the Bills brought in for a look.

It is also interesting to me that Rice's teammate Tahj Washington does well on this chart, too. I wonder if he is a day 3 guy that they might look at if he's there.




They might need a return guy...
I've been thinking about a draft where Beane trades down from 28 to the 2nd, adds a 3rd,, and goes BPA in the early 2nd and then trades up for Franklin.

Cincinnati could make it work with 49, 80, and 115 to get to 28. Maybe they are eying Mitchell or another receiver to replace Higgins.

In that case:

BPA at 49
Trade up from 60 for Franklin
BPA at 80
Rice at 115

If Sweat drops to 49, perfect. That'd be a good draft.
 

truthbluth

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So does Troy Franklin. And we know he is a guy that the Bills brought in for a look.

It is also interesting to me that Rice's teammate Tahj Washington does well on this chart, too. I wonder if he is a day 3 guy that they might look at if he's there.




They might need a return guy...
This chart is mostly a QB chart.
 

Dirty Dog

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As i said - if Diggs leaves it's only because the off-field stuff becomes more of a problem than the dead cap / loss of his on-field talents would be. It might happen - but i think deep down Diggs simply wants to be a winner & he has as good a chance at that in Buffalo as anywhere. The chances of him leaving after next season are remote.

Bolded 1 - I've made the arguement multiple times before - but that is a dumb strategy for a 'win now' team in the middle of a cap crunch. We need those high picks to be immediate contributors every year. Just look at our friends in KC for a blueprint ...

It's especially dumb since Diggs is contracted for a number of years & you don't even need to 'replace' him. Refer to post immediately above responding to @Der Jaeger re why i think replacing Diggs isn't necessary. Also read DJ's own post further above re the structure of the offence as we move forward. This is very insightful & likely completely lost on the 'WR or bust' crowd.

Doesn’t KC draft WRs pretty high and fairly often?
 

Rowley Birkin

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Doesn’t KC draft WRs pretty high and fairly often?
Not really. Especially when you consider what they have lost at the position in recent years (namely Hill).

The offseason they lost Hill, they used 2 x R1 picks on defensive players.

Again this goes back to DJs post above where he referenced KC/Kelce post Hill & what could happen with the Bills' offence - as we seem to be following their blueprint at least to some degree.
 
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