GDT: Islanders @ Capitals - 11/5/13 - Nielsen > Tavares

[Langway]

Beware! Few days ago Oates was recognized as idiot by many here And not even talking about Calle.

It's amazing what coherent lines and a few crappy teams will do.

Carkner is awful, Martinek isn't any better and Donovan doesn't look ready yet. Hamonic/MacDonald can't really carry a team. The Islanders really need a few capable defensemen. There's some developing in-house but, man, that's a poor group at the moment.

 

[foundhockey]

What a fantastic game that was to watch! The 2nd period in particular was loads of fun. The forward lines are clicking nicely now (I kind of miss Beagle, but I see what Latta is doing for the team. The fourth line is our tough-guys-with-skills line and I like it.). As for defense, 88 and 34 continue to impress.

And Ovie! I'm thrilled he's back. The assist on Wilson's goal was fabulous.

Let's go Caps!

 

[BobRouse]

It's amazing what coherent lines and a few crappy teams will do.

Carkner is awful, Martinek isn't any better and Donovan doesn't look ready yet. Hamonic/MacDonald can't really carry a team. The Islanders really need a few capable defensemen. There's some developing in-house but, man, that's a poor group at the moment.

The Isles made the playoffs last year and just were coming off an impressive win against the Bruins so don't play them out as a "crappy" team. They are far from that.

I do agree about their D. I didn't think Hamonic looked very good last night and they do have a lot of castoffs (Can we send Lombardi a thank you card for the Hickey over Alzner selection?)

 

[Liberati0n*]

I think you are not giving OV enough credit. This was not bad coaching fixed by good coaching. This was Ov losing his own way and needing the right help to find his way back. Ov lost his way for a reason and part of that was not listening to the coaches he had....not counting Hunter, of course.

Ov gets the credit for giving in to being coached and learning from it. That is far more important than the coaching itself. Ov wants to be the work horse.

That said, the knee jerk, no patience anti Oates that's been on display here for the last little bit is a joke.

edit: brouwer bashing is now institutionalized. thank god green can be a whipping boy again too. this idea that eric fehr is the answer defies the fact that he's been asked to be the answer over and over again and never had the answer. so now we have "why is fehr scratched?" and "why is fehr playing over brouwer?" brouwer is not going to be sitting so fehr can play. brouwer is core on this team in every way. fehr is a spare part.

Seriously where do you get this fiction that Fehr was tried "over and over again" ( )? Fehr never got a chance at a bigger role under Boudreau -- no, one game is not a chance -- and hasn't under Oates besides a little time at 2LW against the Rangers (time in which he played very well) and the two recent games at 1RW (in which, again, he played well).

You're right that Brouwer is misguidedly considered "core" and won't be scratched (or even demoted, apparently) because of it. To put it in terms that matter to you, that just discredits McPhee/his coaching staff. The fact that a player's place isn't affected by his play is absurd and certainly a feature of their "culture of mediocrity."

 

[BobRouse]

RE: Brouwer vs Fehr

Brouwer 381 Games 90 goals 83 assists

Fehr 328 games 58 goals 61 assists



So career wise Brouwer has been:



A better goal scorer and point producer (on a per game basis)

More physical (finished in top 20 hits every full year)

More durable

Bigger stronger and can scrap



I see very little Fehr has over him and think Brouwer brings much more to the table especially in the physical part of the game.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Brower is on pace for an impressive 5 even strength goals this year.

 

[Liberati0n*]

RE: Brouwer vs Fehr

Brouwer 381 Games 90 goals 83 assists

Fehr 328 games 58 goals 61 assists



So career wise Brouwer has been:



A better goal scorer and point producer (on a per game basis)

More physical (finished in top 20 hits every full year)

More durable

Bigger stronger and can scrap



I see very little Fehr has over him and think Brouwer brings much more to the table especially in the physical part of the game.

Eric Fehr career average TOI/game: 11:35
Troy Brouwer: 16:13

 

[BobRouse]

Eric Fehr career average TOI/game: 11:35
Troy Brouwer: 16:13

Just for reference...you do know that there is a REASON why Ovechkin plays far more minutes than Aaron Volpatti right?

Ice time is generally indicative of the players effectiveness. You play well then you get ice time. There are exceptions but this is a good general rule

Brower is on pace for an impressive 5 even strength goals this year.

How many even strength goals was Ovechkin on pace for in the first 15 games of last year?

 

[Liberati0n*]

Just for reference...you do know that there is a REASON why Ovechkin plays far more minutes than Aaron Volpatti right?

Ice time is generally indicative of the players effectiveness. You play well then you get ice time. There are exceptions but this is a good general rule.

Nope.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Just for reference...you do know that there is a REASON why Ovechkin plays far more minutes than Aaron Volpatti right?

Ice time is generally indicative of the players effectiveness. You play well then you get ice time. There are exceptions but this is a good general rule.

Washington has a rich history of rewarding good play with ice time in the Ovechkin era.

Schultz, Wideman, Erskine, Laich, Fleischmann.

It's also generally true that players who get limited icetime deserve that. Erat, Orlov, Fehr, Perreault.

There's clearly a very strong logic of meritocracy behind all of this.

 

[Stewie G]

Just for reference...you do know that there is a REASON why Ovechkin plays far more minutes than Aaron Volpatti right?

Ice time is generally indicative of the players effectiveness. You play well then you get ice time. There are exceptions but this is a good general rule



How many even strength goals was Ovechkin on pace for in the first 15 games of last year?

Martin Erat of 1 week ago would beg to differ.

 

[BobRouse]

Martin Erat of 1 week ago would beg to differ.

I said as a general rule. Especially over a long period of games such as a career as opposed to a handful of games to start a season.

Brouwer simply brings more to the table than Fehr. More goals, assists, fights, hits, durability etc

This is not a knock of Fehr. I really like him. But I don't think he can bring the same elements as Brouwer.

#20 needs to play better tho I agree.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

 

[Liberati0n*]

Brouwer simply brings more to the table than Fehr. More goals, assists

Factually wrong. Fehr has produced goals and assists at a higher rate than Brouwer over their careers.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Brower is on pace for an impressive 5 even strength goals this year.

What impressive pace are the Caps overall on for even strength goals??

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Factually wrong. Fehr has produced goals and assists at a higher rate than Brouwer over their careers.

In the case where you have a player who has been chronically injured most of his career, pace mean jack crap. Pace means NOTHING if you can't put up the real numbers because you're out hurt. Pace is the tool of those who want to debate potential vs REAL production.

 

[Liberati0n*]

In the case where you have a player who has been chronically injured most of his career, pace mean jack crap. Pace means NOTHING if you can't put up the real numbers because you're out hurt.

Being healthy doesn't seem to stop Brouwer from not showing up to games.

How much time has Fehr missed with injuries in his second tour?

 

[Stewie G]

I said as a general rule. Especially over a long period of games such as a career as opposed to a handful of games to start a season.

Brouwer simply brings more to the table than Fehr. More goals, assists, fights, hits, durability etc

This is not a knock of Fehr. I really like him. But I don't think he can bring the same elements as Brouwer.

#20 needs to play better tho I agree.

Fehr was in the top 10 in P/60 for an entire season while under Bruce and still got crappy ice time. If not for BB's love with Flash, I think Fehr could have excelled with 2nd line minutes and PP time.

How many fights has Brouwer had since he's been a Cap? I have no idea where to look. He has lots of hits since his line never controls the puck at ES.

For what it's worth, I see Fehr in the middle of more scrums than Brouwer and I think he's a better forechecker too. He's $2M cheaper to boot. Brouwer has been more durable though.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Being healthy doesn't seem to stop Brouwer from not showing up to games.

How much time has Fehr missed with injuries in his second tour?

I'm not saying Brouwer doesn't need to step it up, just torpedoing PACE vs REAL PRODUCTION.

I'd like Fehr to realize his long ago busted potential, but it's time people realize he's probably not a legit top 6 forward and move back to wringing their hands over Tom Wilson, Mojo, or the 2LD.

 

[Stewie G]

In the case where you have a player who has been chronically injured most of his career, pace mean jack crap. Pace means NOTHING if you can't put up the real numbers because you're out hurt. Pace is the tool of those who want to debate potential vs REAL production.

He said rate, not pace.

Rate is production per 60.

Pace is what people use when they talk about Brouwer being a potential 30 goal scorer.

 

[BobRouse]

Factually wrong. Fehr has produced goals and assists at a higher rate than Brouwer over their careers.

huh?

Brouwer has a higher ppg than Fehr. He has a demonstrable advantage when it comes to the physical game as well.

If you want to parse it out on a TOI basis then you have to take into account the quality of competition and many other factors.

What I do know is that Troy Brouwer, since 08-09 (both their 1st full NHL seasons) has outscored Eric Fehr in every year.

Thats a fact.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

He said rate, not pace.

Rate is production per 60.

Pace is what people use when they talk about Brouwer being a potential 30 goal scorer.

rate/production....whatever hairs you want to split. Brouwer has outproduced Fehr in terms of REAL goals and points. Argue semantics all you want...

 

[Liberati0n*]

He said rate, not pace.

Rate is production per 60.

Pace is what people use when they talk about Brouwer being a potential 30 goal scorer.

Yup. Haha at this being called semantics.

huh?

Brouwer has a higher ppg than Fehr. He has a demonstrable advantage when it comes to the physical game as well.

If you want to parse it out on a TOI basis then you have to take into account the quality of competition and many other factors.

What I do know is that Troy Brouwer, since 08-09 (both their 1st full NHL seasons) has outscored Eric Fehr in every year.

Thats a fact.

Why is per-game okay but not per-minute? You realize those are measures of the same thing, right? To rephrase it, the stats you listed should have around 50% of Fehr's GP added to Brouwer's total to be accurate.

 

[BobRouse]

For what it's worth, I see Fehr in the middle of more scrums than Brouwer and I think he's a better forechecker too. He's $2M cheaper to boot. Brouwer has been more durable though.

How many fights has Eric Fehr gotten into in his career? How many has Brouwer? I don't see a disparity in scrummage. Think you need your eyes checked out.

They both get into scrums but sheet gets real with Brouwer. Fehr? Not so much.

Also find me a year where Brouwer wasn't in the top 20 league hit leaders. Show me ONE season where Fehr was in the top 10 hit leaders on HIS TEAM.

No sane person can argue that Fehr>Brouwer in the Physical aspects of the game (hits, fights, scrums etc) 268 PIMS to 104PIMS

Why is per-game okay but not per-minute? You realize those are measures of the same thing, right? To rephrase it, the stats you listed should have around 50% of Fehr's GP added to Brouwer's total to be accurate.

Its the same argument Crosby fans made about the Hart trophy last year.

Basically on one hand we have real production. On the other we have projected production.

If Ovechkin played 60 minutes a game would he triple his production?

Both BB and Oates both preferred Brouwer to Fehr.

 

[Liberati0n*]

How many fights has Eric Fehr gotten into in his career? How many has Brouwer? I don't see a disparity in scrummage. Think you need your eyes checked out.

They both get into scrums but sheet gets real with Brouwer. Fehr? Not so much.

Also find me a year where Brouwer wasn't in the top 20 league hit leaders. Show me ONE season where Fehr was in the top 10 hit leaders on HIS TEAM.

No sane person can argue that Fehr>Brouwer in the Physical aspects of the game (hits, fights, scrums etc) 268 PIMS to 104PIMS

The ones that have an actual impact on the game though, like forechecking, significantly favor Fehr.