Is there a top seven now in international hockey?

[Tuoppi]

Czechs did win u18 silver in 2014.

 

[that is unfortunate]

No order, just tiers. There's a clear top 5 and as someone mentioned the Czechs are all alone in 6th, clearly a step or two above Switzerland/Slovakia (which might not be obvious to people that only check the boxscore, Czech coaching is just terrible so the games often end up closer than they should be).

Canada
US
Finland
Sweden
Russia

Czech Republic

Switzerland
Slovakia

 

[Lepardi]

No order, just tiers. There's a clear top 5 and as someone mentioned the Czechs are all alone in 6th, clearly a step or two above Switzerland/Slovakia (which might not be obvious to people that only check the boxscore, Czech coaching is just terrible so the games often end up closer than they should be).

Canada
US
Finland
Sweden
Russia

Czech Republic

Switzerland
Slovakia

If you think Finland is clearly ahead of the Czechs, then Canada is certainly in a category of its own clearly ahead of everyone else. In a best-on-best tournament on neutral ground Finland wouldn't even have a 30-percent chance of beating Canada in a single game, while the Czech Republic would easily have more than a 40-percent chance of beating Finland.

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

I think Finland holds the 5th place firmly, but I also think we are closing in on the top-4 each year. We have almost twice the amount of players with NHL games this season compared to early 2010s, and more are entering each year. The future also looks bright, with probable top-5 draft picks for the next 3 drafts.

 

[ijuka]

If you think Finland is clearly ahead of the Czechs, then Canada is certainly in a category of its own clearly ahead of everyone else. In a best-on-best tournament on neutral ground Finland wouldn't even have a 30-percent chance of beating Canada in a single game, while the Czech Republic would easily have more than a 40-percent chance of beating Finland.

Where is the 40%+ chance coming from?

Czechs have Pastrnak as the superstar. Then there are Hertl, Krejci, Voracek, perhaps Vrana, Kase, Palat etc. but after the first few names, they have total mediocrity. The D is horribly bad for best-on-best. Their 1D is, what, Kempny? Perhaps Radko Gudas? Just terrible.

If we look at Finland's forwards, we have a top six such as Rantanen, Aho, Barkov, Granlund, Teräväinen, Laine etc. and when it comes to D, Ristolainen, Heiskanen, Lindell are pretty good in their own right.

The tending isn't even close.

 

[Machinehead]

Yes, I think there's a Big 7, but there's also a Huge 5.

 

[Lepardi]

I think Finland holds the 5th place firmly, but I also think we are closing in on the top-4 each year. We have almost twice the amount of players with NHL games this season compared to early 2010s, and more are entering each year. The future also looks bright, with probable top-5 draft picks for the next 3 drafts.

It certainly looks like Finland will be closer to USA's, Sweden's and Russia's level five years from now than they are now, but this recent influx of Finnish top prospects has also made a lot of Finns forget what Finland's true place in the international hockey hierarchy is. My coworker who watches a decent amount of NHL games just told me a couple of months ago that Finland might be the #2 favorites in the tournament, when I told him that there might be a World Cup in 2020. I suggested that maybe he should hold his horses cause I really don't see how Finland wouldn't be the underdog against Sweden and USA in September 2020, but he was having none of it. I hope they do organize that World Cup for multiple reasons, but one of them is that I want to bet him on those games Finland possibly has against USA and Sweden. They'll both easily be the favorites against Finland, and even if I lose the bet, it won't be too bad cause I'll get to see Finland win.

As of January 2019, Finland vs. Czech Republic is a signicantly more even match-up than Finland vs. Canada.

 

[Lepardi]

If we're talking about MODERN success and not living in the past, the USA has had more WJHC success in the past decade than any other country regardless of whether or not they win gold. That's not an accident. It's a country taking over the top spot.

Russia dominated the sport for a while. Then it was Canada. Now it's USA's turn. Not saying it will last forever, but for now the US is producing better hockey talent than any other country.

If USA is producing better hockey talent than any other country right now, why doesn't it show in the NHL? Are they more interested in getting medals at junior tournaments than producing NHL stars, cause they sure as hell aren't beating Canada in the latter category.

 

[canuck2010]

If USA is producing better hockey talent than any other country right now, why doesn't it show in the NHL? Are they more interested in getting medals at junior tournaments than producing NHL stars, cause they sure as hell aren't beating Canada in the latter category.

They work with a hothouse system so that ensures a number of advantages in the WJC. The players know each other and the systems they use extremely well. Plenty of time to work on speciality teams etc. and build a "team".

 

[canuck2010]

I quote myself from December 3rd. I'll just shut up from now on.

"You never know how players will come together as a team. Short round robin tournaments can leave you in 5th in the blink of an eye.

Having said that, and all things being equal it should take an exceptionally talented crew to beat a lineup created from this roster.

Not saying we'll win gold, that's why they play the games, however so far so good!"

 

[crowi]

I already said it was laughable to grade Finns lower than U.S before. Here we are.

Cart before the horse was also something I mentioned.

 

[Andrei79]

If USA is producing better hockey talent than any other country right now, why doesn't it show in the NHL? Are they more interested in getting medals at junior tournaments than producing NHL stars, cause they sure as hell aren't beating Canada in the latter category.

It is actually. The biggest growth in % of players from a country in the NHL in the last 2 decades has been from the US. They've gone from 10% to over 20% if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Lepardi]

It is actually. The biggest growth in % of players from a country in the NHL in the last 2 decades has been from the US. They've gone from 10% to over 20% if I'm not mistaken.

How exactly does this make them better than Canada at producing NHL stars?

 

[moropanov]

I think Finland should be ranked better than Russia at hockey by now maybe even better than Sweden new generation is so talented.

 

[Czechboy]

[/QUOTE]

As of January 2019, Finland vs. Czech Republic is a signicantly more even match-up than Finland vs. Canada.

I don't understand. Finland is well ahead of the Czechs and keeps upsetting Canada. Am I misunderstanding? There is no debate the Finns have easily pulled away from the Czechs. I'm surprised people are debating the Big 5 so much... it is a very even Big 5.

 

[Lepardi]

I don't understand. Finland is well ahead of the Czechs and keeps upsetting Canada. Am I misunderstanding?

I wasn't talking about these kids' tournaments where the best U20 players aren't even taking part. I was talking about international best-on-best hockey among men. Something these young Finnish stars might not get to experience before their 30th birthdays.

 

[moropanov]

Finland's players have about equally good NHL stats this season as Russians in NHL if you make one roster for both 12 forwards 6 dman 2 goalies. Then Finnish forwards are typically better defensively or as a team players than Russians so i dont think there's player material difference between these two anymore. Russia has couple flashier names, but they are getting older and im pretty sure guys like Aho or Granlund would easily outplay names like Ovechkin or Kovalchuk at international level IIHF type of game bigger ice surface different play style and even rules...

 

[NoMessi]

I think Finland should be ranked better than Russia at hockey by now maybe even better than Sweden new generation is so talented.

Wtf. Finland has 1 defender that would compete for Swedens B team.

I get that this generation of players is something Finland has never seen but hold your horses. We still have Pettersson and Dahlin just past 2 drafts - we aint going nowhere and you still have things to prove before considered on our level.

 

[Employee427]

As far as Slovakia and Czech republic goes, it is, in my opinion, definitely not right to put them in same tier. Not sure about Switzerland.

Recently there has been an attempt to somehow revive Slovak hockey, which might be a reason for stronger U16-U18 teams, but when you look at Slovak hockey you see:
1. Not a single star level or even above average NHL level player, when Chara and Gaborik (maybe forgot someone) finally retire, you have Tatar as best Slovak player in NHL, with, in my opinion, Cernak having the best chance to establish himself as a good NHL player in the future.
2. Very few star level players even in European leagues, how many elite level Slovak players are there in Liiga/SHL/Czech Extraleague/KHL?
Slovan Bratislava, Slovak KHL team, is currently in the bottom of KHL standings.
3. Slovak Extraleague considered tier or two below leagues listed in point 2.

On the other hand, Czechs:

1. While also do not have as strong of a generation as in the past, still somewhat consistently produce NHL players, so there is no chance of having close to zero NHL players as Slovakia does, also even in current generation Pastrnak is on the right path.
2. Czech Extraleague can be a stepping stone to KHL, and maybe even NHL (Kempny, Cervenka, Jerabek..) which is close to unheard of in Slovak Extraleague and is generally considered tier or two above Slovak league.

Overall, take a look at Slovak/Czech NHL players, situation in European leagues, number and positions of drafted NHL players and you see it isnt right to currently rank Czech Rep and Slovakia in the same tier. I would either rank Czechs as team of "Big 6" or put them in a separate tier, since they definitely dont belong in Switzerland (Not sure about where to put them, so might be wrong..) and Slovakia tier. Also Slovakia, as I said, has been trying to revive hockey, but current situation on Senior level might be even bleaker than some here realize.

 

[canuck2010]

No question that Finland punches well above its weight in hockey. I love the way they play and am always happy to see them win. Sometimes even when they play Canada ( only if I'm pissed off at the Canadian team lol).

I always get a good vibe from the players as well. I've not been to Finland however I think I might recognize the culture of the game as something I remember growing up with in Canada.

 

[chauron]

If you think Finland is clearly ahead of the Czechs, then Canada is certainly in a category of its own clearly ahead of everyone else. In a best-on-best tournament on neutral ground Finland wouldn't even have a 30-percent chance of beating Canada in a single game, while the Czech Republic would easily have more than a 40-percent chance of beating Finland.

The real tournaments and their stats count only, in these ”if then this that” tournaments Jamaica could also win 15 titles in a row - all imagination.

 

[Rexor]

A lot of ignorance in this thread. Czech Republic may clearly be the weakest country in the Top 6 or even form a separate tier below Top 5 but significantly above the No. 7 country, but it's certainly not in the same group as Switzerland or Slovakia. Just two stats:

1) Number of NHL players in 2018/19 to this date:

Finland - 41
Czech Republic - 33
Switzerland - 13
Slovakia - 7

2) Number of players drafted by NHL teams since 2014:

Finland - 76
Czech Republic - 43
Switzerland - 15
Slovakia - 13

 

[Sigismund]

Dahlin is better than any Finnish prospect ever.

Pleasure to meet you, Rasmus.

 

[chauron]

Dahlin is better than any Finnish prospect ever.

He’s just a promising guy. I much rather watch Karlsson, Hedman, Ekman-Larsson or Klingberg to play if I need to look a swede play. I don’t care how old the player is, I just watch good hockey.

 

[Civetty]

I think Finland holds the 5th place firmly, but I also think we are closing in on the top-4 each year. We have almost twice the amount of players with NHL games this season compared to early 2010s, and more are entering each year. The future also looks bright, with probable top-5 draft picks for the next 3 drafts.

You are doing better than the Russians in NHL this year for the first time ever I think, so definatly improvement.