Line Combos: Is there a logical reason...

[eXile59]

Kunitz was in the exact same situation as a Freshman at Ferris state and more than doubled Bennett's goal total, if you were wondering. If a guy's going to score goals in the NHL, he's going to score some before he gets there.

Almost nobody just goes from not scoring goals in college or minor pro to scoring enough to justify being placed on a line with the sports' best passer.

Someone's going to retort something about Dupuis shortly, but not only is Dupuis not an ideal linemate for Crosby, even his meager goal production on lower levels and in lesser roles exceeds Bennett's. He also takes more than twice as many shots (even without Crosby) and converts at a higher career clip (again, even without Crosby).

You do realize that the Q is much more higher scoring league that the NCCA right?

There is not doubt that early in his career Bennett looks to be more of a playmaker compared to Kunitz but it is early. You're comparing different leagues, circumstances, & era's to justify why a flush with talent young player shouldn't be used in a situation that sets him up to succeed.

Bennett is pretty far ahead of where Kunitz was when he was that age. Kid has a bunch of potential to become a top 6 winger.

 

[#66]

This season is a wash to me. There are too many holes that need addressed and too many unknowns. Small salary cap makes it impossible when you are wasting millions on dead weight like Dopee, Glass, Adams, etc.

Will we have a respectable bottom 6? Probably not.

Will we be able to find a respectable top 6 winger? Probably not.

Will we find a capable backup if Vokoun doesn't return? Possibly.

Will Megna and Mattaa last all season? Probably not.

Will bennett develop to the point of earning a spot on the top 6? Possibly.

Could you imagine this team playing in a best of 7 against one of the western powerhouses. It would be prettttty ugly. I think we all know how that would end.

But the team sold out every game and was competitive against crappy teams. Shero and disco stay on and the nightmare will continue. We are good, just not quite good enough to be a true contender. The media always portrays us as a contender because of Crosby, but the guy can't do it all himself, particularly with his current linemates.

There aren't that many holes. The D looks solid and Scuds is a perfect fit. Also Martin calming things down in the defensive zone just adds more stability.

Bennett can fit in, and should be given every chance to, the top 6. If the Hawks can win a cup with Saad fitting in then the Pens can at least do well with Bennett fitting with Kunitz-Crosby or Malkin-Neal. Give it some time.

People can piss and moan about Glass and Adams as much as they want. They've had a good start to the season and have played as well as a 4th liner could. If 4th liners are going to cost the Pens so much then they are miles from being a cup team not just a change in 4th liners.

IMO the most frustrating part of the Pens right now is that they are so close but its the same old problems popping up again. Offense is way to hard for this team. Its either a great play from a star or hard work. The system in place doesn't take over for "gimmee goals" every once in a while. Also the PP is just piss poor... again. Look how lesser teams move the puck around and create seams. The Pens just go out and freelance... its really hard to watch.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Well the last time I checked Crosby can shoot just as well as pass and Kunitz is a finisher. That line needs somebody who doesnt play wack-a-mole with the puck all over the ice and can actually create space for himself and dish the puck to the goal scorers. The last thing it needs is another sniper.

Actually that's wrong and the Kunitz, Malkin Neal line proved that.

Edit: This also proves the Pens only have one pure sniper on the wings.

 

[Sutter16]

I think DB should give the Kunitz-Malkin-Neal line a shot. Put Beau on the LW and Dupuis with Sid. It makes sense, but it's gonna happen. I know Sid's opinon matters and he wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis but at some point,Bylsma has got to split up 14-87-9, if they are not producing

 

[Shady Machine]

I think DB should give the Kunitz-Malkin-Neal line a shot. Put Beau on the LW and Dupuis with Sid. It makes sense, but it's gonna happen. I know Sid's opinon matters and he wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis but at some point,Bylsma has got to split up 14-87-9, if they are not producing

I agree in theory, but Dupuis is the main reason why the line isn't working. You move Kunitz off that line and expect Bennett to make that line better than with Kunitz on it. I like the kid, but I have my doubts that it would work right now. I would go Kunitz-Sid-Bennett but that leaves the 2nd line less than ideal. Can't we just clone Kunitz and grow him 3 inches?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I agree in theory, but Dupuis is the main reason why the line isn't working. You move Kunitz off that line and expect Bennett to make that line better than with Kunitz on it. I like the kid, but I have my doubts that it would work right now. I would go Kunitz-Sid-Bennett but that leaves the 2nd line less than ideal. Can't we just clone Kunitz and grow him 3 inches?

If we're cloning anyone it's Crosby and Malkin.
A bigger Crosby, a smarter Letang, a younger Vokoun, and extra Martin/Scuderi.

Jokinen - Crosby - Bennett
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Dupuis - Sutter - Megna

Flexibility.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Instead of trying to get all 3 players perfect, just keep the top 3 center/wing pairs together and let the 2nd winger figure themselves out:

Sid+Kuni
Geno+Neal
Sutter+Duper

Rotate BB, JJ, Menga, Kobe and D'Ags around till you find the best lines.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I'd be happy to consider any examples of a playmaking wing who can't score excelling with a playmaking center who can if anyone can provide them. My guess is there are very, very few such instances. If any.

Except Crosby isn't just a playmaking center. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Actually that's wrong and the Kunitz, Malkin Neal line proved that.

Edit: This also proves the Pens only have one pure sniper on the wings.

Except Kunitz wasn't the finisher on the Malkin line. Pretty obvious if you ask me.

 

[IcedCapp]

i hate you all

 

[Darth Vitale]

One of the biggest factors here that needs to be addressed (if not for the first time then again ) is that we can talk all we want about line combos but what we really need is for Bylsma to set up the lines and leave them alone for a game week. In my opinion there is far too much mixing and matching that takes place during aDB coached game.

Fixed.

Except Crosby isn't just a playmaking center. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that while his answer functions, it is obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory anomaly, that if left unchecked may threaten Bylsma's system itself. Ergo those who agree Bennett should not play with Crosby (while a minority) if left unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

(This thread is about logic, after all... something you humans cannot fully appreciate.)

 

[billybudd]

What are you looking for exactly? A playmaking winger who CANNOT score excelling with a playmaking center who CAN score?

I don't think I can come up with an example. I can think of a playmaking winger who couldn't score that excelled with another playmaking center who couldn't score...Joe Juneau, when he played with Adam Oates AND Cam Neely in Boston. Sometimes, two playmakers can find great chemistry together, but often the third member of the line becomes critical.

Not sure this helps at all.

I almost mentioned Juneau.

Its worth noting that he only produced well once in 5 seasons with Oates (Washington tried to reunite them later and got bupkiss out of it) and even then, it required a complete outlier year in league scoring to do it. He was, like, 60th in goal scoring that year (behind such luminaries as Nikolai Borschevski). To put in perspective how low that was, Shawn Matthias was 60th in goal scoring last season. Dupuis, if anyone's wondering, was 15th.

Also worth noting is that Boston didn't have any other players at his position that scored goals even as well as Juneau did in 93. The choice between Juneau and Reid wasn't the choice between Bennett and Dupuis. It was the choice between Bennett and Ryan Craig. If that.

If the best example in NHL history of a playmaking wing excelling with an elite playmaking center is that the latter has a 60th place goal finish to his name once in 5 years, that's just not good enough to justify trying Bennett there, imo. Boston valued Juneau's contribution to an Oates line so little they flipped him for a slapshot with crutches a year after his awesome 60th place finish in the scoring race.

 

[Shady Machine]

So again, what is your ideal role for Bennett on this team? Corsby isn't Adam Oates. Oates' career goals per game was 0.25 while Crosby's is 0.5. The dude can score goals better than nearly anyone else in the league. Yeah he doesn't score like Ovi and Stammer, but he CAN if he had a guy that could feed him the puck in open space.

You made some condescending remark about video games the other day and how I was fitting players into defined roles but you are doing exactly that. Crosby is MUCH more than just the league's best playmaker. He is the leagues best hockey player. Why can't a guy with playmaking skills play with Crosby? Your argument really defies logic.

All I have seen you do is moan about how bad Bennett is as a goal scorer. What positive traits do you think he brings to this team? Because from everything I've read from you, Bennett might as well be riding the pine.

 

[billybudd]

Except Crosby isn't just a playmaking center. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to provide me with an example of a playmaking wing who can't score doing well with a playmaking center who can.

Jags already gave the best example I know of and, as I showed, it's not a very good one.

 

[billybudd]

So again, what is your ideal role for Bennett on this team? Corsby isn't Adam Oates. Oates' career goals per game was 0.25 while Crosby's is 0.5. The dude can score goals better than nearly anyone else in the league. Yeah he doesn't score like Ovi and Stammer, but he CAN if he had a guy that could feed him the puck in open space.

You made some condescending remark about video games the other day and how I was fitting players into defined roles but you are doing exactly that. Crosby is MUCH more than just the league's best playmaker. He is the leagues best hockey player. Why can't a guy with playmaking skills play with Crosby? Your argument really defies logic.

All I have seen you do is moan about how bad Bennett is as a goal scorer. What positive traits do you think he brings to this team? Because from everything I've read from you, Bennett might as well be riding the pine.

"Playmaking" doesn't mean "just passes." A playmaker's in control of the bulk of the decision-making on his line. He decides where the puck goes and to whom. If that's to the net, he's still functioning as his line's brain. That Crosby can score goals doesn't have anything to do with him not being a playmaker first, second and third.

Bennett's strength is also playmaking. But on a line, unless you're role swapping constantly (think Sid and Malkin), that's a zero sum game. If one guy's controlling the play, the other guy isn't. Bennett isn't on a level that role swapping makes sense. If Crosby's on the ice and Bennett's the one making all the decisions, for any extended period of time, you've got a problem. Sid's good for, what, creating 3 scoring chances per shift on a good day? Bennett for one a game. Maybe.

As far as where Bennett goes, I would first reiterate that Crosby does not exist so he can stat-pad Bennett while his production goes down. Too many people seem to think this and I have no idea why. Crosby's the world's best player. Bennett, maybe the 80th best wing, if that. You don't ask the former to drop to the latter's level.

Then I would tell you to ask Shero, not me. I have little understanding of why he would pick a playmaker with top 6 skill who can't score then convert him to wing, instead of just selecting a wing who projects to be able to put the puck in net.

And finally, you're the one who made the condescending video game remark. If I said something about a video game, it was in response to you.

 

[mpp9]

How does Brown/Kopitar/Williams work then? Kunitz/Sid/Bennett would be just fine if given the chance.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to provide me with an example of a playmaking wing who can't score doing well with a playmaking center who can.

Jags already gave the best example I know of and, as I showed, it's not a very good one.

What the hell are you talking about. I just said Crosby isn't just a playmaking center. You are wrong. So just admit it and move on.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Except Kunitz wasn't the finisher on the Malkin line. Pretty obvious if you ask me.

Pretty obvious I was talking about, Neal. Do you see Bennett as a Neal type finisher?

All of Kunitz, Dupuis, Jokinen, Bennett are diverse forwards and none of them posses the pure sniper attributes Neal does.

Point being in my address of your post was, that they still could use a sniper that you say they don't need. None of them fill that role, purely speaking of the wing position.

Yes, Crosby and Malkin can both snipe, but this doesn't mean they don't need one on the wings.

He's just not there yet. I know he's our best wing prospect and all, but he's no where near what you all are expecting of him. That's have him be a top six wing you can 100% count on, it's lightning in a bottle you're all hoping for. It just doesn't work that way.

If you have Bennett on Malkin & Neal's line, that works, he's the #3. On a line with Kunitz & Crosby and then there'd be 2 #3's. Kunitz is not a #2 and Sid can't pass the puck to himself, the guy who carries the puck the majority of the time, who's shooting?

Lightning in a bottle man, that's what you all are hoping for.

Edit: I forgot another point. What if Sid has two guys on him like he almost always does, how's he shooting.

 

[billybudd]

What the hell are you talking about. I just said Crosby isn't just a playmaking center. You are wrong. So just admit it and move on.

Crosby's not a playmaker. I suppose he's not a forward, either, according to you.

If I'm so wrong, I'll take that example I've asked for now.

 

[billybudd]

Pretty obvious I was talking about, Neal. Do you see Bennett as a Neal type finisher?

All of Kunitz, Dupuis, Jokinen, Bennett are diverse forwards and none of them posses the pure sniper attributes Neal does.

Point being in my address of your post was, that they still could use a sniper that you say they don't need. None of them fill that role, purely speaking of the wing position.

Yes, Crosby and Malkin can both snipe, but this doesn't mean they don't need one on the wings.

He's just not there yet. I know he's our best wing prospect and all, but he's no where near what you all are expecting of him. That's have him be a top six wing you can 100% count on, it's lightning in a bottle you're all hoping for. It just doesn't work that way.

If you have Bennett on Malkin & Neal's line, that works, he's the #3. On a line with Kunitz & Crosby and then there'd be 2 #3's. Kunitz is not a #2 and Sid can't pass the puck to himself, the guy who carries the puck the majority of the time, who's shooting?

Lightning in a bottle man, that's what you all are hoping for.

Edit: I forgot another point. What if Sid has two guys on him like he almost always does, how's he shooting.

Thank you. It's reassuring that at least one other person understands all this.

 

[Fire Shero*]

I don't know if a great coach would even make this team that much better come playoff time. We just don't have the talent and no depth. Disco is an idiot, but you can only do so much with this roster. The pens need two more talented wingers and that just sing feasible.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I almost mentioned Juneau.

Its worth noting that he only produced well once in 5 seasons with Oates (Washington tried to reunite them later and got bupkiss out of it) and even then, it required a complete outlier year in league scoring to do it. He was, like, 60th in goal scoring that year (behind such luminaries as Nikolai Borschevski). To put in perspective how low that was, Shawn Matthias was 60th in goal scoring last season. Dupuis, if anyone's wondering, was 15th.

Also worth noting is that Boston didn't have any other players at his position that scored goals even as well as Juneau did in 93. The choice between Juneau and Reid wasn't the choice between Bennett and Dupuis. It was the choice between Bennett and Ryan Craig. If that.

If the best example in NHL history of a playmaking wing excelling with an elite playmaking center is that the latter has a 60th place goal finish to his name once in 5 years, that's just not good enough to justify trying Bennett there, imo. Boston valued Juneau's contribution to an Oates line so little they flipped him for a slapshot with crutches a year after his awesome 60th place finish in the scoring race.

Well, to be fair, high-scoring players got traded MUCH MUCH more frequently back then. Everybody would kill for a rookie Joe Juneau on left wing these days.

How does Brown/Kopitar/Williams work then? Kunitz/Sid/Bennett would be just fine if given the chance.

Not the best example, as Sutter continues to break that line up periodically. Dwight King has played as much as Brown on the top line this season. That said, it IS a line that works, and is proven to be better than good come playoff time.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I don't know if a great coach would even make this team that much better come playoff time. We just don't have the talent and no depth. Disco is an idiot, but you can only do so much with this roster. The pens need two more talented wingers and that just sing feasible.

Last year it was about DB not slotting Iginla in his RW spot no matter which line that ended up being. There was only two options he had. So coaching has to be part of the package when things line up.

This year, you're probably right, and the constant injuries make sure this season will flop when it comes post season time.

Maybe they can ride the chip on the shoulder act and make it work, but we shouldn't hold our breath. The playoffs is every bit about, team.

The "show me attitude" should be the fan-base motto.

We just have to get there.

 

[KIRK]

Pretty obvious I was talking about, Neal. Do you see Bennett as a Neal type finisher?

All of Kunitz, Dupuis, Jokinen, Bennett are diverse forwards and none of them posses the pure sniper attributes Neal does.

Point being in my address of your post was, that they still could use a sniper that you say they don't need. None of them fill that role, purely speaking of the wing position.

Yes, Crosby and Malkin can both snipe, but this doesn't mean they don't need one on the wings.

He's just not there yet. I know he's our best wing prospect and all, but he's no where near what you all are expecting of him. That's have him be a top six wing you can 100% count on, it's lightning in a bottle you're all hoping for. It just doesn't work that way.

If you have Bennett on Malkin & Neal's line, that works, he's the #3. On a line with Kunitz & Crosby and then there'd be 2 #3's. Kunitz is not a #2 and Sid can't pass the puck to himself, the guy who carries the puck the majority of the time, who's shooting?

Lightning in a bottle man, that's what you all are hoping for.

Edit: I forgot another point. What if Sid has two guys on him like he almost always does, how's he shooting.

Just my opinion, but as much as Sid needs a sniper, what he really needs is a guy out there who can make a play one on one more than once in the bluest of moons, be it with skill, speed, or some combination thereof.

Simple to defend Sid: Check him tight, collapse around him, and make Kunitz or Dupuis make a play, which they don't against teams that play a disciplined defensive game.

I'm not sure that a sniper necessarily makes that play either (which, as an aside, is why Neal and Malkin together are inconsistent without a puck retriever on the other wing). But, someone who can beat a guy one on one can make the other team pay for cheating so much in covering Sid.

Bennett sniping would be a luxury. What Bennett can do as a one on one player makes exploring him out there with Sid and Kunitz worthwhile, just as what he can do as a one on one battler for the puck makes exploring him out there with Geno and Neal worthwhile.

 

[KIRK]

I don't know if a great coach would even make this team that much better come playoff time. We just don't have the talent and no depth. Disco is an idiot, but you can only do so much with this roster. The pens need two more talented wingers and that just sing feasible.

A minimum one more talented, depending upon the level, IMO.

As for a great coach making this team 'better', I think that a great coach would do as much as is possible, given the limitations of the roster, to accentuate the team's (and its stars') strengths and to disguise its collective weaknesses. And, really, that's all you can ask of any coach, except of course Bylsma in some circles.