Line Combos: Is there a logical reason...

[Sty1877]

For the refusal to try, in any regard, be it practice, preseason, overtime or even on the whiteboard, Beau Bennett along either wing with Sidney Crosby? I know it has been discussed, but I'm looking for solid answers.

I honestly can't fathom the reasoning. It is reported that Beau is going to return to the 3rd line when healthy, and if Kunitz is out or remains out, that Megna or D'Agostini will see time alongside Crosby.

Is Beau not a fit with Crosby? Of course, we don't know unless it is attempted, but given their playstyles, I think they would mesh amazingly well. Bennett can mimic Hossa's presence on Sid's line--solid defensively, solid playmaking, and while not quite the goalscorer Hossa was, he can make up for it by using creativity to get the puck to an open Crosby near the net.

Does KCD need to stay intact? I don't believe so. While they have been a great regular-season line, trial and tribulation has revealed that this line no longer, or never has, worked in the post-season. Crosby needs a threat when he is being swarmed, and Dupuis is not it. If you move Dupuis to the 3rd line, it becomes infinitely better, and he has shown to play well with Sutter. If you'd rather move Kunitz to Malkin's line, we all know how well that works, and it brings more balance to our 2C strength.

Finally--longevity. Dupuis and Kunitz, if not already, will be past there prime in the next year or two. Bennett is here for the long haul, as is Crosby, and they have plenty of time to grow together and become one of the league's better tandems.

That said, can anyone tear apart my logic or give me other reasons why Beau shouldn't play with Crosby? Is it stubbornness? Superstition?

Click to read more...

 

[Captain Hook]

Beau Bennett's played all of 31 games in the NHL. He very well may end up being Sid's long-term winger. I don't think it's alarming that it hasn't been tried that much yet. The kid just got to the league not that long ago.

I know KCD fizzled out in the Boston series but there was a stretch where Dupuis was absolutely on fire in the playoffs last year.

 

[orby]

The only real reason is Bennett's inexperience. Even though Bylsma loves the KCD line to death, I would have to think that by next season Bennett will no longer be considered a tenderfoot in the lineup and will be given serious consideration to play in Dupuis' spot on that line, as long as he keeps up the good work.

 

[cygnus47]

Not saying its necessarily the correct decision, but I feel like it comes from an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kinda mentality in Bylsma's mind.

 

[Sivek]

For me, Bennett isn't practicing with Crosby or possibly even playing with him tomorrow, in the case of Kunitz missing some time, because if he plays well, it'll create a headache for DB. Keeping Bennett off the Crosby line is the path of least resistance.

Yeah, the team would likely be better off overall from the trickle down effect of Bennett playing with Crosby and bumping either Kunitz to the Geno line or Dupuis to the 3rd-line, but it's not an area DB seems to have much interest in changing. I'd also buy that Sid is very comfortable with Kunitz and Dupuis and that's another, and probably largest, reason they're glued to the hip. DB likes the combo, Sid likes it too, why would he change it up and have to deal with any potential unrest that follows? It's the highest scoring line in hockey since it's been together and breaking it up would invite easy criticism if the new lines didn't produce like gangbusters right away.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I know KCD fizzled out in the Boston series but there was a stretch where Dupuis was absolutely on fire in the playoffs last year.

KCD fizzled out in the Ottawa series, but Crosby was still able to keep putting up points. The only series where Dupuis was able to produce at all even strength was against the Islanders, but even then I certainly wouldn't say he was "on fire."

However, he was playing extremely well before the playoffs when he was still playing with the Morrow-Jokinen-Dupuis line.

For me, Bennett isn't practicing with Crosby or possibly even playing with him tomorrow, in the case of Kunitz missing some time, because if he plays well, it'll create a headache for DB. Keeping Bennett off the Crosby line is the path of least resistance.

Bylsma logic at it's finest. Heaven forbid we let Crosby play with skill and it actually works. What a disaster that would be. There might even be 'too many options'

Yeah, the team would likely be better off overall from the trickle down effect of Bennett playing with Crosby and bumping either Kunitz to the Geno line or Dupuis to the 3rd-line, but it's not an area DB seems to have much interest in changing. I'd also buy that Sid is very comfortable with Kunitz and Dupuis and that's another, and probably largest, reason they're glued to the hip. DB likes the combo, Sid likes it too, why would he change it up and have to deal with any potential unrest that follows? It's the highest scoring line in hockey since it's been together and breaking it up would invite easy criticism if the new lines didn't produce like gangbusters right away.

I hate this argument so much. I could care less whether or not it's the highest scoring line in hockey. News flash: Put any two relatively competent players on Sid's line and it'll be the highest scoring line in hockey. Regardless of how many points they put up in the regular season, that line will never be able to produce against good defensive teams when it matters.



In response to the OP, no there's really not solid logic behind not trying them together in normal circumstances. But right now, I actually think there's a higher chance of Kunitz playing tomorrow than Beau or else Beau would have been practicing on the third line.

 

[hiptanaka]

For the refusal to try, in any regard, be it practice, preseason, overtime or even on the whiteboard, Beau Bennett along either wing with Sidney Crosby? I know it has been discussed, but I'm looking for solid answers.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

I think the more important question regarding our lineup is... Is there a logical reason that Engelland keeps getting ice time as a forward over a guy like Matt D'Agostini? When I look at our lineup it confuses me.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Jokinen-Malkin-Megna
Glass-Sutter-Adams
Jeffrey-Vitale-Engelland

??? I know I'm not the coach and I'm not trying to say I know more than him, but wouldn't this be a more plausible lineup?

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Jokinen-Malkin-Megna
Jeffrey-Sutter-D'Agostini
Glass -Vitale-Adams?

It just doesn't make sense to me that Glass and Adams are on the 3rd line and Jeffrey is playing 4th line LW, with Engelland at RW...

 

[Zirakzigil]

Everytime this picture is posted I want to cry

I honestly don't think we will see anyone besides Dupuis playing with Crosby unless Dupuis suffers a long term injury or Dan is fired. Iginla proved that.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Logic is something that has always been absent in the Shero/Bylsma era.

 

[Muscles4Malkin]

Bylsma loves grinders. Sid, Kunie and Duper are all grinders and they have a plus. They can score. (at least Sid and Kunie)

 

[billybudd]

In the 112* games he's spent at any level above the BCHL, Bennett scored a whopping 23 goals (most of these in the WCHA).

To put in perspective how low that is, Kunitz scored 66 in 110 (CCHA). Dupuis scored 80 in 118 (Q...but he also outpaced Bennett in terms of goalscoring in his rookie season in the minors).

You mentioned Hossa. Hossa is big-time apples and oranges. He barely spent any post-draft time in any developmental league, but doubed Bennett's goal production in less than half the games. Hossa has a feel for how to beat a goaltender that Kunitz will never have and Bennett will certainly never have.

Now, numbers across the WHL/QMJHL/CCHA aren't going to be exact. But if a guy is likely to be a goalscorer in the NHL, he's gonna score goals wherever he is before that (assuming the league he's in before that isn't trash, like the BCHL).

Bennett's got a lot going for him. Wins battles, smart, covers a lot of ground, can walk defenders.

But he's not a finisher, has never been a finisher and is unlikely to ever be a finisher. This is the reason they aren't going to put him with the sport's best passer. It would have been like putting Adam Oates on a line with Steve Yzerman. Or Scott Gomez with Joe Sakic. Just wouldn't have made any sense.

*included Bennett's NHL numbers because I went by years not playing in a trash league up to about 100 games. If I drop those out, the pattern doesn't substantially change.

 

[Captain Hook]

KCD fizzled out in the Ottawa series, but Crosby was still able to keep putting up points. The only series where Dupuis was able to produce at all even strength was against the Islanders, but even then I certainly wouldn't say he was "on fire."

5 goals in 6 games in that NYI series. If that's not on fire I don't know what is. Granted he only had 2 goals in the Ottawa series and they were both short-handed but it was only a 5 game series and with his strong regular season combined with his hot start to the playoffs I can definitely see why Bylsma wasn't switching him off that top line for a rookie. I think the option has to be and will be explored down the road though.

 

[Til the End of Time]

when the penguins acquired iginla, the first thing hcdb did was tell dupuis not to worry, his spot alongside crosby was guaranteed.

think about that for a second.

what an absurd notion.

the coach is clearly a fool, and if he isnt willing to bump dupuis down to let iginla play with sid, he almost certainly wont allow bb to play with sid for significant period of time.

people will rationalize sid and bb not playing together will all sorts of stats and explanations, many of which are plausible. but its really immaterial, because even if bb deserved to play with sid, hcdb is too stubborn to allow it to happen.

 

[BreakfastatMarios]

In the 112* games he's spent at any level above the BCHL, Bennett scored a whopping 23 goals (most of these in the WCHA).

To put in perspective how low that is, Kunitz scored 66 in 110 (CCHA). Dupuis scored 80 in 118 (Q...but he also outpaced Bennett in terms of goalscoring in his rookie season in the minors).

You mentioned Hossa. Hossa is big-time apples and oranges. He barely spent any post-draft time in any developmental league, but doubed Bennett's goal production in less than half the games. Hossa has a feel for how to beat a goaltender that Kunitz will never have and Bennett will certainly never have.

Now, numbers across the WHL/QMJHL/CCHA aren't going to be exact. But if a guy is likely to be a goalscorer in the NHL, he's gonna score goals wherever he is before that (assuming the league he's in before that isn't trash, like the BCHL).

Bennett's got a lot going for him. Wins battles, smart, covers a lot of ground, can walk defenders.

But he's not a finisher, has never been a finisher and is unlikely to ever be a finisher. This is the reason they aren't going to put him with the sport's best passer. It would have been like putting Adam Oates on a line with Steve Yzerman. Or Scott Gomez with Joe Sakic. Just wouldn't have made any sense.

*included Bennett's NHL numbers because I went by years not playing in a trash league up to about 100 games. If I drop those out, the pattern doesn't substantially change.

This response is just chalked full of knowledge and Hockey IQ.

I applaud your response.

 

[Tender Rip]

In the 112* games he's spent at any level above the BCHL, Bennett scored a whopping 23 goals (most of these in the WCHA).

To put in perspective how low that is, Kunitz scored 66 in 110 (CCHA). Dupuis scored 80 in 118 (Q...but he also outpaced Bennett in terms of goalscoring in his rookie season in the minors).

You mentioned Hossa. Hossa is big-time apples and oranges. He barely spent any post-draft time in any developmental league, but doubed Bennett's goal production in less than half the games. Hossa has a feel for how to beat a goaltender that Kunitz will never have and Bennett will certainly never have.

Now, numbers across the WHL/QMJHL/CCHA aren't going to be exact. But if a guy is likely to be a goalscorer in the NHL, he's gonna score goals wherever he is before that (assuming the league he's in before that isn't trash, like the BCHL).

Bennett's got a lot going for him. Wins battles, smart, covers a lot of ground, can walk defenders.

But he's not a finisher, has never been a finisher and is unlikely to ever be a finisher. This is the reason they aren't going to put him with the sport's best passer. It would have been like putting Adam Oates on a line with Steve Yzerman. Or Scott Gomez with Joe Sakic. Just wouldn't have made any sense.

*included Bennett's NHL numbers because I went by years not playing in a trash league up to about 100 games. If I drop those out, the pattern doesn't substantially change.

Sobering stuff..... one has to admit.

However, having teased us with a few absolute snipes at the NHL level, and looking at how he plays.... I just have to think that there will be more goals coming from him than your breakdown suggests.

I admit I am onto hope also for this one, but with how good his alround game has looked, I still concur with the OP - it seems extremely weird that nothing is ever attempted on a trial basis when it comes to the first line. Bennett related or not.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Because Shero pinky swore to Koon and Dupuis that they'd never get taken off crosbys line.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Great post, Billybudd.


Are there lodgical reasons? Yes.

One is, earning that position. That's what Kunitz & Dupuis did. This isn't a case where they have a player so elite they cannot justify putting him in the lower ranks.

When did we draft a top ten winger? This place is walking around with fulltime beauners, it's unhealthy.

Time is what it will take, and time or patients is not of this particular board, it boarders on sniveling whining of a three year old. The lodgical reasoning is in front of everyones noses, yet...they still dissmiss it and keep going.

Right now Beau is a 3rd line winger with a "future" top six role when he has matured enough to handle that role fulltime. He also has that benifit to make mistakes where it won't hurt them as much. It's not like he doesn't get "shifts" here or there with him, just as even when he does, and has a good "shift", it's.....oh man did you see that "shift?" He's so... a top six winger right now. DB!, put him in the top six, right..(while stomping feet)..Now!

Now!








Now!

Now!

 

[Shady Machine]

In the 112* games he's spent at any level above the BCHL, Bennett scored a whopping 23 goals (most of these in the WCHA).

To put in perspective how low that is, Kunitz scored 66 in 110 (CCHA). Dupuis scored 80 in 118 (Q...but he also outpaced Bennett in terms of goalscoring in his rookie season in the minors).

You mentioned Hossa. Hossa is big-time apples and oranges. He barely spent any post-draft time in any developmental league, but doubed Bennett's goal production in less than half the games. Hossa has a feel for how to beat a goaltender that Kunitz will never have and Bennett will certainly never have.

Now, numbers across the WHL/QMJHL/CCHA aren't going to be exact. But if a guy is likely to be a goalscorer in the NHL, he's gonna score goals wherever he is before that (assuming the league he's in before that isn't trash, like the BCHL).

Bennett's got a lot going for him. Wins battles, smart, covers a lot of ground, can walk defenders.

But he's not a finisher, has never been a finisher and is unlikely to ever be a finisher. This is the reason they aren't going to put him with the sport's best passer. It would have been like putting Adam Oates on a line with Steve Yzerman. Or Scott Gomez with Joe Sakic. Just wouldn't have made any sense.

*included Bennett's NHL numbers because I went by years not playing in a trash league up to about 100 games. If I drop those out, the pattern doesn't substantially change.

Bennett doesn't have to be a sniper to play well with Sid. Sid may be an elite passer, but he's also an elite goal scorer. Why can't Bennett set up Sid? Dupuis and Kunitz can't. It's not like players fit into neat categories like EA Sports. Sid is an elite hockey player at all facets of the game. He needs someone else who can think and perform the game at his level. Kunitz and Duper can't but Bennett has shown he has that ability.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Bennett doesn't have to be a sniper to play well with Sid. Sid may be an elite passer, but he's also an elite goal scorer. Why can't Bennett set up Sid? Dupuis and Kunitz can't. It's not like players fit into neat categories like EA Sports. Sid is an elite hockey player at all facets of the game. He needs someone else who can think and perform the game at his level. Kunitz and Duper can't but Bennett has shown he has that ability.

When has Beau showed he has the ability of, Kunitz? Kunitz can both pass and shoot. Dupuis is a far more likely scenario you can atest to being replaced by, Bennett. There's just no way for, Kunitz. If Beau is going to be the elite disher of the puck, the other two better be able to finish. Otherwise, Beau better work on shooting more. The last thing that line needs is another dependant upon Sid to finish everything. That's what Crosby needs, guys who can create and finish plays.

 

[mpp9]

If Dupuis can put up 20 goals, so can BB. I wouldn't be too worried about it.

 

[Fordy]

When has Beau showed he has the ability of, Kunitz? Kunitz can both pass and shoot. Dupuis is a far more likely scenario you can atest to being replaced by, Bennett. There's just no way for, Kunitz. If Beau is going to be the elite disher of the puck, the other two better be able to finish. Otherwise, Beau better work on shooting more. The last thing that line needs is another dependant upon Sid to finish everything. That's what Crosby needs, guys who can create and finish plays.

Depending on Sid to finish is a nice way to describe KCD. KCB or BCD is relying on Sid to finish. KCD is just Sid, all the time, carrying the line.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Depending on Sid to finish is a nice way to describe KCD. KCB or BCD is relying on Sid to finish. KCD is just Sid, all the time, carrying the line.

The only ones finishing around here are, Sid, Kunitz, and Jokinen. They do have to have the ability "to put the puck in the net."

 

[Fire Shero*]

If Dupuis can put up 20 goals, so can BB. I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Can we stop acting like Bennett is an established player? He's played in 30 some games. None of us know what kind of player he will develop into. Let's not forget, Jeffrey had a nice stretch of games for like 2 weeks 3 years ago and he was the next best thing.

So far Bennett has a lot of potential but also injury prone if you look at his college stats and this season. Maybe he only didn't get injured last year because he only played a couple of months.

I think he has to play in another 30 games or so to prove he should play with Sid and that's coming from a guy who hates Dopee.

 

[Waffle Fries]

5 goals in 6 games in that NYI series. If that's not on fire I don't know what is. Granted he only had 2 goals in the Ottawa series and they were both short-handed but it was only a 5 game series and with his strong regular season combined with his hot start to the playoffs I can definitely see why Bylsma wasn't switching him off that top line for a rookie. I think the option has to be and will be explored down the road though.

And only 2 of those 5 happened while on a line with Crosby.

In response to the bolded, can you see why he wouldn't switch him off the top line for a future Hall of Famer?