Line Combos: Is there a logical reason...

[Honour Over Glory]

LOL....logic.

That is not the Penguins way.

GRIND D'EM *****EZ DOWN YO!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Let's just accept that the 1st line won't change...the rest of the line-up.

Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis
Bennett, Malkin, Neal
Jokinen, Sutter, Megna
Lord Glass, Sir Vitale, Duke Adams

My first guess is that Sid has the most input into who he plays with and might not want BB there, but who knows. A healthy team would shed more light onto this... and I don't think we're going to have that for a while.

They say if you don't learn, you're doomed to repeat your mistakes. Or something profound like that, of which I am sure I butchered in some way.

Where have we seen this before on this team where a player dictated coaching decisions in regards to his linemates?

 

[SEALBound]

Wonder what a line of:

Bennett-Sutter-Megna

would be like...

 

[orby]

I think Jokinen should stay on the second line, for now. It's obvious that he can score in that role, and as Carolina learned last season, he's not the kind of player who can really produce while getting bottom 6 minutes.

Ultimately (as in, over the next two or three seasons) I think Bennett should end up on the first line, on Crosby's right wing, and that Dupuis should play on the third line. It's not gonna happen this season, and that's not a travesty. Giving Bennett a year on the third line is not going to stunt his development - as long as he's playing in a regular role, I'm fine with it. He looks good playing with Sutter and brings a playmaking touch to the third line that it lacks without him. Other teams use promising young forwards in a similar way. Sooner or later Dupuis is just not going to be able to keep up with the first line as well anymore, regardless of who we're playing against. Bylsma is not going to continue throwing him on that line if he even looks like a third wheel against average teams. Crosby is not going to force himself to drag Dupuis' ass around the ice - he's not stupid. Eventually, provided he stays with the team, Bennett will be that guy.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

There has not been a single strong argument in this thread as to why Bennett shouldn't play with Sid. Not a single one.

Best Line In Hockey

Checkmate!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Wonder what a line of:

Bennett-Sutter-Megna

would be like...

Does it make sense to use a line that? Sure.

So naturally, we'll never see it.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

No, its just laughable that when the Penguins actually do get a Top 6 capable and proven winger, you want to put him on the 3rd line. Yeah, put our leading (tied for) scoring winger who's shown chemistry and finishing ability with Malkin on the third line.

I'm not trying to screw Bennett out of Top 6 time...but come on, you're nuts for wanting him in the Top 6 and Jokinen on the 3rd line. If there is anyone that needs out of the Top 6 right now, it's Dupuis, not Jokinen.

At times, people here go too far the other way when considering where and when to play the youth. People were all for Tangradi being shoved down the Top 6 throat and he was terrible...but people ignored it. People wanted the same thing with Staal. Now people want Bennett in the Top 6 for the pure sake of having youth in the Top 6. Such delusion that people are willing to ignore the fact that Jokinen is our top scoring winger.

BB should take Dupers spot in the top 6, not JJs.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Dupuis-Sutter-Menga/Kobe/D'Ags

Then if Shero ever moves Nisky for a top 9 winger:

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Jokinen/Trade-Malkin-Neal
Jokinen/Trade-Sutter-Dupuis

 

[billybudd]

You make some good argument but you also make some bad ones.

I'm not familiar with Kunitz's collegian career ... Bennett played 47. His first season he played 37 games mostly on a 3rd line because Denver was stacked & on the 2nd PP unit for large parts of the season(from the half dozen or more games I saw). He put up 4 less points than Kunitz did his Freshman & Sophmore year.

Kunitz was in the exact same situation as a Freshman at Ferris state and more than doubled Bennett's goal total, if you were wondering. If a guy's going to score goals in the NHL, he's going to score some before he gets there.

Almost nobody just goes from not scoring goals in college or minor pro to scoring enough to justify being placed on a line with the sports' best passer.

Someone's going to retort something about Dupuis shortly, but not only is Dupuis not an ideal linemate for Crosby, even his meager goal production on lower levels and in lesser roles exceeds Bennett's. He also takes more than twice as many shots (even without Crosby) and converts at a higher career clip (again, even without Crosby).

 

[madinsomniac]

Kunitz was in the exact same situation as a Freshman at Ferris state and more than doubled Bennett's goal total, if you were wondering. If a guy's going to score goals in the NHL, he's going to score some before he gets there.

Almost nobody just goes from not scoring goals in college or minor pro to scoring enough to justify being placed on a line with the sports' best passer.

Someone's going to retort something about Dupuis shortly, but not only is Dupuis not an ideal linemate for Crosby, even his meager goal production on lower levels and in lesser roles exceeds Bennett's. He also takes more than twice as many shots (even without Crosby) and converts at a higher career clip (again, even without Crosby).

But you have to factor in that both Bennet and Megna were latecomers to the game of hockey, both picking it up later in their teens. Their offensive upside is still a complete unknown. Also, remember that guys like Talbot, who led lower leagues in scoring, have been banished to the third and fourth lines with regularity. Low level production simply isn't a huge consideration as to where they play in the big league. If the guy has playmaker abilities you play him on an offensive line.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Bennett is a playmaker anyway. Not a goal scorer. I'm not really sure the point that's trying to be made.

 

[Fire Shero*]

This season is a wash to me. There are too many holes that need addressed and too many unknowns. Small salary cap makes it impossible when you are wasting millions on dead weight like Dopee, Glass, Adams, etc.

Will we have a respectable bottom 6? Probably not.

Will we be able to find a respectable top 6 winger? Probably not.

Will we find a capable backup if Vokoun doesn't return? Possibly.

Will Megna and Mattaa last all season? Probably not.

Will bennett develop to the point of earning a spot on the top 6? Possibly.

Could you imagine this team playing in a best of 7 against one of the western powerhouses. It would be prettttty ugly. I think we all know how that would end.

But the team sold out every game and was competitive against crappy teams. Shero and disco stay on and the nightmare will continue. We are good, just not quite good enough to be a true contender. The media always portrays us as a contender because of Crosby, but the guy can't do it all himself, particularly with his current linemates.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bennett is a playmaker anyway. Not a goal scorer. I'm not really sure the point that's trying to be made.

Apparently you can only have one elite passer on each line. So that would mean Bennett has to stay on the 3rd line forever.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Apparently you can only have one elite passer on each line. So that would mean Bennett has to stay on the 3rd line forever.

Well the last time I checked Crosby can shoot just as well as pass and Kunitz is a finisher. That line needs somebody who doesnt play wack-a-mole with the puck all over the ice and can actually create space for himself and dish the puck to the goal scorers. The last thing it needs is another sniper.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I'd absolutely love a Bennett-Sutter-Megna 3rd line.
Megna is a better defensive and offensive player than D'ags at this point.

Megna has better speed, has better board battle ability, better ability to make a play 1 on 1 and so on.

We could've seen it in St.Louis. Too bad our coach is a moron.

To be honest with you the best options for Sids RW right now are Bennett or Megna and to a lesser extent Neal.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well the last time I checked Crosby can shoot just as well as pass and Kunitz is a finisher. That line needs somebody who doesnt play wack-a-mole with the puck all over the ice and can actually create space for himself and dish the puck to the goal scorers. The last thing it needs is another sniper.

Oh I totally agree with you. Billybud thinks you are dead wrong. Apparently Sid is the best playmaker in the game so therefore he should be setting guys up that can score. The problem with that logic is that Sid is also one of the best goal scorers in the league AND that Malkin is a top 3 playmaker in the league too so I guess Bennett can't play with him either. It's an absurd argument to be honest.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Line combos aside it's hard believe anyone would look at Bennett's short career so far and start making comparisons to Kunitz and Dupuis (and not favorable ones). Anyone who doesn't see that Bennett is a more skilled offensive player than both of those guys, and a more creative player........ common. Give the kid a break (unless I'm not understanding the point being made). And a little time to become a regular NHLer / learn the game.

He may not end up being a 30/30 guy or anything but he's definitely a better offensive player than the other two and can do things for a guy like Crosby or Malkin (by freeing up space and finding lanes at high speed) that Kunitz or Dupuis will not do very often. Kunitz and Dupuis are good at playing their role but as long as they're Crosby's linemates that will always be a dirty goal type line. Which is fine. Dirty goals count as much as pretty ones, but someone like Bennett would make the line less one dimensional IMO.

That said I think the proper solution was already mentioned. Leave Kunitz where he is to be that puck hound and finisher for Crosby (and a physical presence), and add something new to that line by sending Dupers down to line 3 since we know Juice - Geno works and Geno- Neal works.

Kunitz - Sid - Bennett
Juice - Geno - Neal
Dupuis - Sutter - Megnatude
Vitale & the Gladams

 

[Shady Machine]

Agreed Darth Vitale. The only caveat is do we know if Juice-Geno-Neal works? The individual pairs work but I have some concern about the line working. If it is to work, I think Neal needs to drive the forecheck, be physical, etc. It will cause his role to change but I think he's capable of it.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Agreed Darth Vitale. The only caveat is do we know if Juice-Geno-Neal works? The individual pairs work but I have some concern about the line working. If it is to work, I think Neal needs to drive the forecheck, be physical, etc. It will cause his role to change but I think he's capable of it.

I thought about that too and I don't know, to be honest. The problem is neither Juice nor Neal can get up the ice quite as fast as Kunitz and are not as good at barreling into the corner and digging out pucks, etc. Especially not Juice. So yes, the dynamic of the line would have to change some. They'd all have to chip in when it comes to being first to the puck on dump-ins (whoever is going to be closest), and Neal might have to look to assist a little more and not always spot up for his one-timer and snapshots.

The good side of it is Juice can take faceoffs so we don't lose that ability to get the quick shot off the draw (one of their most dangerous plays).

For now I think it's the best option and if it doesn't work, move Dupuis back up to the 1st line, move Bennett to 2LW to play "young Kunitz with better vision". Juice can go back to 3LW and that would still be a pretty good 3rd line (if softer than the Dupuis version).

 

[SEALBound]

One of the biggest factors here that needs to be addressed (if not for the first time then again ) is that we can talk all we want about line combos but what we really need is for Bylsma to set up the lines and leave them alone for a game. In my opinion there is far too much mixing and matching that takes place during aDB coached game. Yes there are circumstances that require it like PK and PPs but largely DB relies on a vague hope that a random combination will ignite instead of giving guys the chance to play together. This becomes all too clear when we are down too. ETA: when I complain about the mixing and matching it usually has to do with inserting a bottom six plug (Glass, Adams, DAgi, etc) into the Top 6,in leiu of a top 6 wing.

Don't get me wrong, we need a shakeup in the line combos but if we do we need it for an entire game...not a single shift or period. Megna excels only when given the time with Malkin. Putting Bennett with Sid for an entire game at the cost of not sparing Dupuis's feelings may be he best route to go.

Joki-Geno-Neal looked excellent in the pre season when everyone was fresh. Neal coming back and given steady time with Joks and Geno could reinvigorate them all. If not, try something new. Just don't destroy what's been working this season for the pure sake of having youth in the Top 6 (ala Bobo over Joks).

 

[Liberty Biberty]

My big issue with our top 6 is that the first line has too much grit, and the 2nd and 3rd lines dont have enough. It feels weird saying a DB coached team doesnt have enough grit. Malkin-Neal and Malkin-Juice have great chemistry, but they cant dump the puck in because nobody can retrieve it. I would rather someone else than Neal be the puck retriever so he can float and find the soft spots.

Geno is at what, 11 games without a goal? Sid and Duper both at 7, a shake up doesnt have to permanent (but I can wish, right?), but we need our top 6 to get going. I would try this for a few games to try and spark the offense...

14-87-19
9-71-18
15-16-36
27-46-5

Sid scored 50 without a decent playmaker, so id love to see him get a chance with one.
Dupuis can be the Kunitz on the 2nd line, retrieving pucks and winning board battles. Then DB can keep him top 6.
The 3rd line is a tough situation, I would rather Sutter or Juice be the center with 2 gritty wingers, but we dont have that right now.
If Engo has to play, id prefer it be as the 4L RW, but id rather him as 7D.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Oh I totally agree with you. Billybud thinks you are dead wrong. Apparently Sid is the best playmaker in the game so therefore he should be setting guys up that can score. The problem with that logic is that Sid is also one of the best goal scorers in the league AND that Malkin is a top 3 playmaker in the league too so I guess Bennett can't play with him either. It's an absurd argument to be honest.

Pretty much. I didn't read the last few pages and couldn't understand the point he was trying to make.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I agree TheEdge27 about the mixing and matching.

I'll give DB another stretch here to get it right, with Neal and Bennett just getting back BUT the issue i have with DB is his breaking up of lines that work.

JJ-Malkin-Megna worked. Breaks it up for no apparent reason.
Glass-Vitale-Adams as a 4th line. Let them be just that and don't over think it. These guys won't help your top 6 in any way(minus Vitale with his speed).

Theres is so much experimentation i would be doing but i would NEVER break up a line that is developing chemistry.

It all starts with getting Dupuis off Sid's RW, dropping him down to Sutter's L or RW and going to town with combos for the top 6.

Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett
Kunitz-Croby-Megna
Neal-Crosby-Bennett(or flip the wings)
Neal-Crosby-Megna
JJ-Crosby-Megna
JJ-Crosby-Bennett
JJ-Crosby-Neal

JJ-Malkin-Neal
JJ-Malkin-Megna
JJ-Malkin-Bennett
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Bennett-Malkin-Megna
Neal-Malkin-Megna
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Kunitz-Malkin-Megna
Kunitz-Malkin-Bennett

____-Sutter-Dupuis
Dupuis-Sutter-____

Glass-Vitale-Adams

Man it would be fun to be a coach of this team, no matter if they had percieved weaker wingers or not.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Let's just accept that the 1st line won't change...the rest of the line-up.

Kunitz, Crosby, Dupuis
Bennett, Malkin, Neal
Jokinen, Sutter, Megna
Lord Glass, Sir Vitale, Duke Adams



They say if you don't learn, you're doomed to repeat your mistakes. Or something profound like that, of which I am sure I butchered in some way.

Where have we seen this before on this team where a player dictated coaching decisions in regards to his linemates?

Those who don't learn from history, tend to repeat it. Was that what you were going for?

Anyway, that lineup above shows that EVEN WITH the KCD line set in concrete and stone, and EVEN WITH Glass and Adams in the lineup all the time, we'd still be able to put out a lineup that most of us can live with. And I dare say we could be fairly successful with it in the end. BUT BUT BUT, we all know Chuck Kobasew is going to play ahead of at least Megna. Then, Engelland will get some more time at right wing (and to be honest, I like what he has shown us as a winger).

And then of course, we'll acquire the next 40-year-old UFA to be in the days leading up to the trading deadline. And Bylsma will play him out of position. Rinse and repeat.

But yeah, HOG, I could definitely get down with those lines.

Bennett is a playmaker anyway. Not a goal scorer. I'm not really sure the point that's trying to be made.

I think Bennett can be anything he wants to be, really. He has a deadly accurate shot. He has hockey sense. He has passing skills. He has grit and tenacity, and he has the determination to get better.

Obviously, we can see why Bylsma doesn't like him.

Agreed Darth Vitale. The only caveat is do we know if Juice-Geno-Neal works? The individual pairs work but I have some concern about the line working. If it is to work, I think Neal needs to drive the forecheck, be physical, etc. It will cause his role to change but I think he's capable of it.

The only way the second line is going to work is if James Neal changes his game, becoming more of the power forward he was in Dallas (and less the dangerous 50-goal man in waiting).

And I really don't know how that helps Geno turn his season around, to be honest. But hey, at least Jokinen will continue to drive his UFA price up. How generous of us to help him out like that.

 

[billybudd]

I'd be happy to consider any examples of a playmaking wing who can't score excelling with a playmaking center who can if anyone can provide them. My guess is there are very, very few such instances. If any.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'd be happy to consider any examples of a playmaking wing who can't score excelling with a playmaking center who can if anyone can provide them. My guess is there are very, very few such instances. If any.

What are you looking for exactly? A playmaking winger who CANNOT score excelling with a playmaking center who CAN score?

I don't think I can come up with an example. I can think of a playmaking winger who couldn't score that excelled with another playmaking center who couldn't score...Joe Juneau, when he played with Adam Oates AND Cam Neely in Boston. Sometimes, two playmakers can find great chemistry together, but often the third member of the line becomes critical.

Not sure this helps at all.