Is the "Retool" or "Rebuild on the Fly" Over?

[ProstheticConscience]

Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports

Brian Burke on SN 650 on patience needed in Vancouver, "Look east in Winnipeg, they didn't make the playoffs for 5 years and now they are on the cusp of been a truly great team. I can see a lot of similarities with what the Canucks are doing now."

What's an appeal to authority? I dunno!

Hey btw, what does Burke know? Didn't he fire that great hockey mind Weisbrod after one piddly interview after taking over in Calgary?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Yeah, this thread is what I thought it would be.

People *****ing, people mad, same **** different day..

Hey, I heard a rumor. Know what it is? You're not actually required to comment in threads if you don't like the conversation. FYI.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I refuse to believe Burke is this dumb and really just wants a job in Van again.

There are many key differences between Winnipeg and Vancouver’s rebuild, patience being the biggest one.

The Brian Burke (Harvard) is dumb comment was laughably inevitable from some posters after that comment...He most obviously is not....He is not desperate for a job either (another anti management posted that he hated the Canucks)...

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What's an appeal to authority? I dunno!

Hey btw, what does Burke know? Didn't he fire that great hockey mind Weisbrod after one piddly interview after taking over in Calgary?

Its not uncommon for a new management team to replace the pre-existing ones..Like thats never happened before?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Its not uncommon for a new management team to replace the pre-existing ones..Like thats never happened before?

Sure, play dumb. The management thread doesn't exist. Why would I expect any different from you.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Sure, play dumb. The management thread doesn't exist. Why would I expect any different from you.

ummm.....just answered your question....."Didn't he fire that great hockey mind Weisbrod after one piddly interview after taking over in Calgary?"

 

[Javaman]

22 million in cap space for next year but, that's not including Boeser's contract or any bonuses for Hughes and Pettersson. Virtanen and Stecher will also need contracts. Demko would have to solidify himself as a number 1 as there's would be no money to resign Markstrom. Tanev would be gone which would leave Stecher as the top match up RHD. Not to mention if there isn't enough space for Hughes and Pettersson's bonuses for the 20-21 season they would carry over to the next year when they need new contracts.

Damn that Luongo recapture penalty... damn it to hell!!!

 

[Askel]

Every summer its the same, a certain group of posters make weird arguments and argue that if you don't accept them you hate Benning and the Canucks. Truth is that if what Benning has been doing the last 5 years has been a rebuild its a lousy one. The Canucks are capped out, the team is filled with overpaid players (Sutter, Eriksson, Myers, Beagle) and mediocre players like Beartshi, Pearson, Leivo, Ferland, Miller.

But Im going to say this I hope this team can challenge for playoff spot, because I'm so tired of cheering for draft picks and for my team to loose. I hope that Miller, Ferland and Pearson can compliment our young stars to give us a great top 6 and that Sutter is healthy and that players like Leivo, Beartshi, Roussel and Virtanen can become a bottom 6 that isn't among the worst in the league.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Every summer its the same, a certain group of posters make weird arguments and argue that if you don't accept them you hate Benning and the Canucks. Truth is that if what Benning has been doing the last 5 years has been a rebuild its a lousy one. The Canucks are capped out, the team is filled with overpaid players (Sutter, Eriksson, Myers, Beagle) and mediocre players like Beartshi, Pearson, Leivo, Ferland, Miller.

But Im going to say this I hope this team can challenge for playoff spot, because I'm so tired of cheering for draft picks and for my team to loose. I hope that Miller, Ferland and Pearson can compliment our young stars to give us a great top 6 and that Sutter is healthy and that players like Leivo, Beartshi, Roussel and Virtanen can become a bottom 6 that isn't among the worst in the league.

There's already enough of the a lot of the 'what if' crowd to go around..we read about it constantly..Miller and Ferland are already mediocre..?

Hopefully ,this season..we will all have something to cheer about.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I think I'm done walking you through things....

Capfriendly.com

They dont have the cap space to sign anyone significant. They need to shed salary to sign Hughes & Pettersson.

 

[ccjon]

Not every rebuild equals scorched earth.

They somehow managed to secure a young core during their tenure here... while playing some meaningful hockey over parts of the last couple of seasons by plugging the roster.

I don't know what you think they were doing this past season when they replaced the Sedins with Roussel and Beagle... But it wasn't to win... it was to not get rolled night after night Oiler style while hoping the youth takes steps. And they showed up.

Going back to 15-16 - when they shed Bieksa, Lack, and the whole 3rd line of Mattias, Richardson, Kassian... and brought in Bartkowski, Prust, Fedun.. so they could make room for Kenins and Horvat + to take over... Obvious rebuild type turnover, right? But then people got obsessed with the Bonino/Sutter trade - put them in rebuild-denial mode... ah well. Attempt at adding a perceived important piece... (or the shedding of Higgens, Hamhuis, Burrows, Hansen... but Eriksson confused everyone unable to see the forest from the trees)

So sure... rebuild never started.

Anyways... Enjoy the season! Should be a fun one. You are in mid-season form already!

Are you suggesting that teams who overhaul their 3rd line are in the midst of a rebuild? I think you're mistaking typical roster turnover for actual conscious rebuilding moves.

Have Tampa, Boston, Nashville, St Louis, Washington, San Jose, Pittsburgh shed players and replaced them with younger options in the last few years? Are they/were they rebuilding?

 

[DL44]

Are you suggesting that teams who overhaul their 3rd line are in the midst of a rebuild? I think you're mistaking typical roster turnover for actual conscious rebuilding moves.

Have Tampa, Boston, Nashville, St Louis, Washington, San Jose, Pittsburgh shed players and replaced them with younger options in the last few years? Are they/were they rebuilding?

So maybe we only rebuilt for one year then?

18-19 Turnover:

OUT: Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin,Jokinen, Chaput, Wiercioch, Cassels, Stewart, Celderholm, Megna, Dowd, Leipsic, Carcone, Nilsson, Archibald, McKenna, Del Zotto, Gagner, Dahlen, Gudbranson

IN: Kero, Roussel, Beagle, Schaller, Leivo, McKenna, Pyatt, Schenn, Mazanec, Spooner, Pearson, Karlsson, Leighton, Teves, Rafferty

One yr rebuild then.
Replaced the franchise's best offensive players with bottom 6 depth and a rookie. Even was on the plus side for draft pick acquisition with 4 in, 2 out.


So yeah... that one year rebuild is over.
Could likely compete with NYR for the fastest rebuild is we make the playoffs.

 

[ccjon]

So maybe we only rebuilt for one year then?

18-19 Turnover:

OUT: Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin,Jokinen, Chaput, Wiercioch, Cassels, Stewart, Celderholm, Megna, Dowd, Leipsic, Carcone, Nilsson, Archibald, McKenna, Del Zotto, Gagner, Dahlen, Gudbranson

IN: Kero, Roussel, Beagle, Schaller, Leivo, McKenna, Pyatt, Schenn, Mazanec, Spooner, Pearson, Karlsson, Leighton, Teves, Rafferty

One yr rebuild then.
Replaced the franchise's best offensive players with bottom 6 depth and a rookie. Even was on the plus side for draft pick acquisition with 4 in, 2 out.


So yeah... that one year rebuild is over.
Could likely compete with NYR for the fastest rebuild is we make the playoffs.

That just looks like roster turnover at the AHL & NHL level. It being "fast" is simply an observation of how long it took. Do you think that was a good "rebuild"? That's what really matters in my opinion.

Do you get what I am saying though? This is why we differentiate between retooling and rebuilding. The Rangers are rebuilding. The Blackhawks are retooling. A rebuild that isn't scorched earth is referred to as a retool.

 

[DL44]

That just looks like roster turnover at the AHL & NHL level. It being "fast" is simply an observation of how long it took. Do you think that was a good "rebuild"? That's what really matters in my opinion.

We were discussing when the rebuild started... not quality of it. That's moving the goalposts.

If that's just regualr roster turnover, then maybe I really dont know what a rebuild is is... heh.
Doesnt matter at all at this point.. just semantics now.

 

[ccjon]

We were discussing when the rebuild started... not quality of it. That's moving the goalposts.

If that's just regualr roster turnover, then maybe I really dont know what a rebuild is is... heh.
Doesnt matter at all at this point.. just semantics now.

Fair enough, didn't see that. My bad

 

[megatron]

Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports

Brian Burke on SN 650 on patience needed in Vancouver, "Look east in Winnipeg, they didn't make the playoffs for 5 years and now they are on the cusp of been a truly great team. I can see a lot of similarities with what the Canucks are doing now."

Burke is way past his prime as a GM, but I'd love for him to come in just so he could drive Benning and Wiesbrod to the airport.
And after that point im not sure what to do with this roster, its not good enough to compete for a cup, the team is at max cap, and we traded away our first rounder. We're stuck with a shitty accidental retool and im not sure what the best practice is going firward.

 

[Teflon Jim]

This is what Edmonton fans said too. And then they realized how a bad GM can **** a team by surrounding some good young players with junk.

I guess I have to go back to basics, so I will perambulate the process for you:

1) The NHL gives out 7 draft picks to every team every year, 1 pick per round.

2) The order in which these teams receive their picks is generally the reverse order of the standings, with some exceptions. For the purpose of the Canucks we'll just look at the non-playoff teams since that's the only thing relevant to the Benning era. Reverse order of the standings, with a lottery to determine the top 3 picks in the first round.

3) The higher your draft pick, the better your odds of drafting an elite prospect. Every year there are elite prospects in the draft. Bad teams get high draft picks given to them by the NHL, and thus get good young prospects.

That's how the draft works. It's really that simple. There's not anything special Benning did, outside of being incredibly incompetent at building the competitive hockey team he was trying to build which led to the Canucks being in a position to be given those high draft picks. I guess if you want to credit Benning for the young players the Canucks ended up drafting, you can do so by praising him for being so unintentionally bad at his job that it put us in a good draft position. Not sure how that's really a positive for Jim Benning though.

Every gm makes those picks and if we collect high picks thats good and will get the job done a lot faster then if we were like the stuck in no mans land with mid range bubble picks.
All I know is its no fun watching a losing team and the last thing I want is to be missing the playoffs for 10+ years and be still rebuilding like the Oilers or the Sabres who have rebuilt the rebuild and still suck.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Every gm makes those picks and if we collect high picks thats good and will get the job done a lot faster then if we were like the stuck in no mans land with mid range bubble picks.
All I know is its no fun watching a losing team and the last thing I want is to be missing the playoffs for 10+ years and be still rebuilding like the Oilers or the Sabres who have rebuilt the rebuild and still suck.

Then you shouldn't be happy with the job the current GM has done...

 

[Teflon Jim]

Then you shouldn't be happy with the job the current GM has done...

I see there's enough good young players for me to pay to watch them now.
I've watched the nucks for about 50 years now and its been entertaining to say the least, players , gms and owner's have come and gone and I'm still here but they have a limited shelf life .
I just hope they win and understand I have no say in how the clubs run or decisions that are made and just accept whatever they're doing.
I find it can be a roller coaster of emotions if I don't think of the nucks as just entertainment and not angst.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The Brian Burke (Harvard) is dumb comment was laughably inevitable from some posters after that comment...He most obviously is not....He is not desperate for a job either (another anti management posted that he hated the Canucks)...

It is dumb. Winnipeg followed a rebuild that was very different than Vancouver. I’m on my phone so I can’t list all the reasons, but the ones that stand out are consistently nailing 1st round picks (largely due to taking the BPA) and retaining future assets/prospects.

 

[tyhee]

To go back to the question that commenced this thread "Is the "Retool" or "Rebuild on the Fly" Over?"

This is really pretty easy to answer. Assuming we all understand that "retool" or "rebuild on the fly" are terms that mean turning over the roster without resorting to sacrificing the present to help the future, all we need to do is examine the way the team has been acquiring assets.

Further, I think the question can be answered without either praising or criticizing the method Managent is using to build the team. The question is simply has it changed.

Since May 1 the Canucks have made the following player moves:

1. re-signed some players on expiring contracts, most notably 33 year old Alex Edler for two seasons;
2. attended the NHL draft and exercised some draft picks;
3. traded future 1st round and 3rd round draft picks for 26 year old J.T. Miller;
4. traded a 2019 pick for two lower picks;
5. traded the rights to Tom Pyatt and a 6th round pick for 23 year old AHL player Francis Perron and a 7th round pick;
6. let go Ben Hutton, Brendan Gaunce, Derrick Pouliot, Markus Granlund, Derek Dorsett, Luke Schenn and some minor leaguers;
7. signed unrestricted free agents Jordie Benn (for 2 seasons, 32 years old), Tyler Myers (29 years old, for 5 seasons), Michael Ferland (27 years old for 4 season), Oscar Fantenberg (27 years old who will be 28 when the season starts, for 1 season) and some minor leaguers.

So in summary:

A. No existing assets are traded for future assets, future assets are traded for present help,
B. Future assets (draft picks) traded for a player in his prime,
C. Other than exercising draft picks, every player acquired is either of prime age or already past the age at which the average player is in his prime.

This seems to me to be the perfect example of a "rebuild on the fly," so the answer to the question posed has to be no. The "retool" or "rebuild on the fly" isn't over.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

It is dumb. Winnipeg followed a rebuild that was very different than Vancouver. I’m on my phone so I can’t list all the reasons, but the ones that stand out are consistently nailing 1st round picks (largely due to taking the BPA) and retaining future assets/prospects.

It doesn't hurt starting your rebuild with Byfuglien,Kane,Little, and Wheeler (Atlanta Thrashers)....and getting gifted Laine...They picked well in the 1st round (no Calder candidates though).

 

[DL44]

It doesn't hurt starting your rebuild with Byfuglien,Kane,Little, and Wheeler (Atlanta Thrashers)....and getting gifted Laine...They picked well in the 1st round (no Calder candidates though).

Kinda awesome to get two finalists in two years with the possibility of 3 in a row.....
I would say Makar is favorite at this point... but Hughes could squeak in as a finalist depending on his use... exciting era we are entering with our youth.

Any teams around that had 3 calder finalists in 3 years?
Or 2 in 2? Crosby Malkin.. did Toews-Kane do it as well?
edit... did the pens go 3in a row with Staal in there as well?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Kinda awesome to get two finalists in two years with the possibility of 3 in a row.....
I would say Makar is favorite at this point... but Hughes could squeak in as a finalist depending on his use... exciting era we are entering with our youth.

Any teams around that had 3 calder finalists in 3 years?
Or 2 in 2? Crosby Malkin.. did Toews-Kane do it as well?
edit... did the pens go 3in a row with Staal in there as well?

That would be impressive indeed..a feather in the cap to the scouting crew...(without winning the lottery or picking higher than 5)

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

It doesn't hurt starting your rebuild with Byfuglien,Kane,Little, and Wheeler (Atlanta Thrashers)....and getting gifted Laine...They picked well in the 1st round (no Calder candidates though).

Winnipeg's pre-existing core starting their rebuild is irrelevant to the points I was making. It really has no bearing on many aspects of how the two team's rebuilds differ - that being, patience, retaining futures, and drafting the BPA with high picks. If anything, pointing to Winnipeg's pre-existing core would agree with my point - that Burke's comparison of the two rebuilds is dumb.

My point is moreso that they did not have any Juolevi/Virtanen screw ups in the 1st round. They pretty much always chose the BPA with their higher picks (Laine, Connor, Ehlers, Morrissey, etc.). And when they didn't (Stanley, Roslovic), it was with mid/late 1st round picks that were still ranked in the top 30 and were defensible.

Please explain the "(no Calder candidates though)" comment. What 1st round pick should the Jets have changed to draft a Calder candidate? Please list who they ought to have drafted. I'll give you a hint - you won't find anyone because the Jets were never as bad as the Canucks to have access to high enough picks to draft Calder nominees. What a desperate and disingenuous remark.