Is the Leafs Defensive play really that bad?

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,546
24,703
the only thing the Caps/Pen do differently is use just 1 PP unit for almost 2 minutes... why do you keep pushing this? let it go, you are wrong
Through our very small sample size thus far, you are somewhat correct.

Through all of last year? Nope, definitely not. If you can't look at a simple ice-time page, there's no point in debating. I pointed out the different usage of our forwards in the other thread and it looks like you still have trouble understanding it.
 

moon111

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
2,890
1,283
There's a lot of teams/players that get rated a lot worst or better for their defense based on the situation they're in. Players should be adjusting their style as the game goes along. Face it, there's been many bad Leaf teams that weren't that good, were behind in the game and started playing more desperate hockey. And often it just made it look worst, but it can be your only hope. Seeing Phil Kessel being a 'minus' player year after year was a sign of desperate hockey from his line. (2014-2015, Kessel basically pouts and quits and doesn't do an ounce of defense.) A lot of players have been ripped apart for being bad defensively, but they were adjusting their game accordingly. I don't think the Leaf's defense is necessarily as bad as it sometimes isn't appropriate in it's timing. Nylander standing in the open instead of covering the point might be worth the risk if you're down two goals late in the game, but you don't start the first period playing that way. The Leafs shouldn't be 'forcing' offense unless it's really needed.
 
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Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
3,662
Through our very small sample size thus far, you are somewhat correct.

Through all of last year? Nope, definitely not. If you can't look at a simple ice-time page, there's no point in debating. I pointed out the different usage of our forwards in the other thread and it looks like you still have trouble understanding it.
  • 2017-18 Capitals
Even...PP......PK...
RkPlayerShiftGPTOITOITOI
6Alex Ovechkin0:528215:554:110:01
7Evgeny Kuznetsov0:527915:193:250:03
8Nicklas Backstrom0:498115:143:300:54
9T.J. Oshie0:527414:163:200:47
10Tom Wilson0:517814:100:041:43
14Andre Burakovsky0:475612:371:120:00
15Lars Eller0:428112:181:111:48
17Jakub Vrana0:497311:490:400:00
18Devante Smith-Pelly0:447511:200:010:58
20Brett Connolly0:397010:321:260:00
21Chandler Stephenson0:476710:240:091:18
22Jay Beagle0:41799:530:022:31
23Alex Chiasson0:41619:280:371:39
[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
  • 2017-18 Maple Leafs
Even...PP......PK...
RkPlayerShiftGPTOITOITOI
6Auston Matthews0:416215:572:080:01
10Nazem Kadri0:418014:392:050:00
11William Nylander0:398214:382:010:01
12Patrick Marleau0:368214:351:590:23
13Zach Hyman0:398214:330:092:39
15Mitch Marner0:478214:092:110:02
17Tyler Bozak0:418113:262:110:00
18James van Riemsdyk0:428112:352:160:01
19Leo Komarov0:367412:300:412:34
21Connor Brown0:408212:001:101:49
26Dominic Moore0:31509:010:031:13
28Matt Martin0:41507:580:000:00
[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
  • Leafs had the #2 best power play % in the league ...
 
Last edited:

daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
5,857
538
Canada
are you saying that we looked more rested and energetic in game 7 last year?

No. I am saying they were gassed. Both mentally and physically. The goalie took too much rubber last year and Gardiner played too many mins. You like to deal with hypotheticals and statistics to mask common sense. There is no point running them into the ground right now. An acclaimed statistician as you claim to be, you could also look at all sports and find correlations between over use and injury.

Who the hell cares what other teams are doing? The point being, if you build a deep team, like ours, you can run four lines and not over stress any one line. They are 8-3 right now and your worried about some stupid time percentage our forwards are playing to others. Well, if other teams had this depth they wouldn't have to be rolling the same lines all the time. Who cares.
 
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IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,546
24,703
There's a lot of teams/players that get rated a lot worst or better for their defense based on the situation they're in. Players should be adjusting their style as the game goes along. Face it, there's been many bad Leaf teams that weren't that good, were behind in the game and started playing more desperate hockey. And often it just made it look worst, but it can be your only hope. Seeing Phil Kessel being a 'minus' player year after year was a sign of desperate hockey from his line. (2014-2015, Kessel basically pouts and quits and doesn't do an ounce of defense.) A lot of players have been ripped apart for being bad defensively, but they were adjusting their game accordingly. I don't think the Leaf's defense is necessarily as bad as it sometimes isn't appropriate in it's timing. Nylander standing in the open instead of covering the point might be worth the risk if you're down two goals late in the game, but you don't start the first period playing that way. The Leafs shouldn't be 'forcing' offense unless it's really needed.
Your profile pic gets me every time.
 

daveleaf

#FIREKEEFE #MIGHTBETIMETOFIRESHANNYTOO
Mar 23, 2010
5,857
538
Canada
So the recent cup winners just aren't thinking long-term eh? Damn if only they would stop micro-analyzing.

They are thinking long term. Didn't Wsh look to reduce OV's time the last few years? Was Pitt running Crosby out there every other shift? They became a better team when they had more depth. Their goaltending improved with more depth. When LA was winning, they were rolling one line after the other. Chi was one of the few teams that got by pretty much with four d-men and only occasionally used their bottom pair. Rarely works in today's game but they were special enough to pull it off.

No need to be rolling Mathews or Tavares's line every other shift. If they win, they will win as a team. If modern day hockey has shown anything is a team needs to be deep to get through all rounds. Injuries play a huge role and I couldn't care less if the better players all shave a little off time to make this team better in the end.
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,268
10,154
  • 2017-18 Capitals
Even...PP......PK...
RkPlayerShiftGPTOITOITOI
6Alex Ovechkin0:528215:554:110:01
7Evgeny Kuznetsov0:527915:193:250:03
8Nicklas Backstrom0:498115:143:300:54
9T.J. Oshie0:527414:163:200:47
10Tom Wilson0:517814:100:041:43
14Andre Burakovsky0:475612:371:120:00
15Lars Eller0:428112:181:111:48
17Jakub Vrana0:497311:490:400:00
18Devante Smith-Pelly0:447511:200:010:58
20Brett Connolly0:397010:321:260:00
21Chandler Stephenson0:476710:240:091:18
22Jay Beagle0:41799:530:022:31
23Alex Chiasson0:41619:280:371:39
[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
  • 2017-18 Maple Leafs
Even...PP......PK...
RkPlayerShiftGPTOITOITOI
6Auston Matthews0:416215:572:080:01
10Nazem Kadri0:418014:392:050:00
11William Nylander0:398214:382:010:01
12Patrick Marleau0:368214:351:590:23
13Zach Hyman0:398214:330:092:39
15Mitch Marner0:478214:092:110:02
17Tyler Bozak0:418113:262:110:00
18James van Riemsdyk0:428112:352:160:01
19Leo Komarov0:367412:300:412:34
21Connor Brown0:408212:001:101:49
26Dominic Moore0:31509:010:031:13
28Matt Martin0:41507:580:000:00
[THEAD] [/THEAD]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There he is golden boy Brown! 1:10 up there, probably never got more than 5pts on the pp all season. This year golden boy is back in the mix, can't do anything out there to save his life EV or on the PP but there he is.
 

Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
3,662
There he is golden boy Brown! 1:10 up there, probably never got more than 5pts on the pp all season. This year golden boy is back in the mix, can't do anything out there to save his life EV or on the PP but there he is.

Leafs had the #2 best PP% in the league with Brown on a unit.
 

Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
3,662
@IPS

tenor.gif
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,268
10,154
Leafs had the #2 best PP% in the league with Brown on a unit.

It's not because of him though. Does the guy even hang on to the puck for more than 20 seconds a game? I am not joking about 20 seconds either.
 

Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
3,662
It's not because of him though. Does the guy even hang on to the puck for more than 20 seconds a game? I am not joking about 20 seconds either.

whats your expectations of him, goal scorer,play maker, fore checker, grinder, PK guy, 30-40 point 3rd liner?
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,268
10,154
whats your expectations of him, goal scorer,play maker, fore checker, grinder, PK guy, 30-40 point 3rd liner?

I put him as a 4th liner energy guy and PK guy. He is on the puck and can get the puck out. That's about it and I am ok with that.
 

Mr Hockey

Toronto
May 11, 2017
11,156
3,662
I put him as a 4th liner energy guy and PK guy. He is on the puck and can get the puck out. That's about it and I am ok with that.

You need to understand/determine Kadri 3rd line role on the team and then give him support (wingers) players. Offensive skill set is not an guarantee you will beat out a role playing player. If Kadri role changes so does his support (wingers) players... make any sense?
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
No. I am saying they were gassed. Both mentally and physically. The goalie took too much rubber last year and Gardiner played too many mins. You like to deal with hypotheticals and statistics to mask common sense. There is no point running them into the ground right now. An acclaimed statistician as you claim to be, you could also look at all sports and find correlations between over use and injury.

Who the hell cares what other teams are doing? The point being, if you build a deep team, like ours, you can run four lines and not over stress any one line. They are 8-3 right now and your worried about some stupid time percentage our forwards are playing to others. Well, if other teams had this depth they wouldn't have to be rolling the same lines all the time. Who cares.

so we spent the whole year resting our top guys and we were still exhausted?
 

Warden of the North

Ned Stark's head
Apr 28, 2006
46,372
21,703
Muskoka
They were in the middle of the pack last year in GA and they are again so far this year.

But for some reason everyone is bound and determined to believe they're terrible.

Calling an average defense average doesn't make you a homer guys. It's ok.


My favourite is "Leafs D is terrible, goaltending saves them" followed by "Andersen is a sieve"
 
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Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
14,114
5,694
We got better by subtraction by letting Polak,Jvr and Bozie walk.

We are just a much more well rounded team defensively with the young legs and Tavares.

Still gave up one 40 shot game so far. That can't happen but there is multiple games under 30 shots and three games with less than 25 shots.

This is a much better defensive team. This team can challenge for our long lost cup right now and thats just a reality.

This team of our is so so fast.
 

apollo678

Registered User
Oct 21, 2013
169
43
I have been impressed with Gardiner and Marincin these last few games.
I wonder if Babcock will immediately get Dermott back into the lineup now that he has gotten over his sickness.
 

Paradoc

John Tavares is a Leaf!
Mar 13, 2013
15,375
2,547
Toronto
It blows my mind why people care so much about PP toi allocation when our PP is ranked 1st in the league since Matthews and Marner first NHL season. Surely, Babcock is doing something right here...
 

TheProspector

Registered User
Oct 18, 2007
5,339
1,697
Orlando
The Leafs seem to match up well against the Jets. They've been a total abortion at ES prior to that this season, though.
 

Albus Dumbledore

Master of Death
Mar 28, 2015
9,007
2,670
For those wondering Hainsey is down almost 2 mins a game from last year(almost 22 to almost 20) and over the last 5 games has been getting consistency less ice time(less then 19 mins a game)

Morgans ice time is at almost 22 a game from 21 and a half last year and the last 5 hes at almost 23 a game.
 

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
There's been a big improvement since maybe the Dallas game while tightening up even further the last few games. We're doing ok here.
 

moon111

Registered User
Oct 18, 2014
2,890
1,283
3 out of the top 10 players for Giveaways, are Leaf defensemen.

...and Jake Gardiner isn't one of them. He's currently at 12 giveaways in 13 games.
Last season he was 3rd overall in the league.

Hainsey, Zaitsev, Reilly... they're all up there. Dermott just had 5 Giveaways against Dallas.

But good old Jake, Mr. Bonehead... isn't messing up like he once did. Sure he's still had Giveaways,
but that has come with the territory for any offensive defensemen. Reilly? Well he's quite the
offensive force. But Hainsey? Zaitsev? This is always being a huge problem for the Leafs and
really it looks like Gardiner might be the only one make strives in this direction.

Perhaps last year's playoffs motivated someone to work on that part of their game?
 

Luminiferous

Registered User
Oct 11, 2018
667
525
It blows my mind why people care so much about PP toi allocation when our PP is ranked 1st in the league since Matthews and Marner first NHL season. Surely, Babcock is doing something right here...


I do not claim to know anything. My thought was, If Matthews was on the ice more often, the PP would have been #1 and by a LANDSLIDE. Now, it is impossible to know, but certainly seems logical.

As for Babcock... it is tough. In the past, I have always tried not to blame the coach. I felt it came down to talent and drive from players. Toi, systems and everything falling inbetween are crucial. Babs decisions are so damn questionable. I think if casual fans can see the ills of his game plans, there may be an issue. I attribute the leafs lethal PP to the players MOSTLY. These guys are super talented. I feel like they thrived, almost in spite of Babcock.

I wonder what you think about the topic.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
I do not claim to know anything. My thought was, If Matthews was on the ice more often, the PP would have been #1 and by a LANDSLIDE. Now, it is impossible to know, but certainly seems logical.
Doesn't really work like that. If he was with his normal unit, it would be playing more over the one that was the best in the league. If he jumped over to that unit, the system that made them the best in the league would be abandoned for one that used Matthews more. It's certainly not so clear cut, even though early results this season has been good.
 

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