Is the FHL slowly legitimizing itself?

[SemireliableSource]

 

[JMCx4]

I believe @alko was asking a serious question, guys, even though his presentation was troll-worthy. If anyone knows an approx. franchise fee of late for the FPHL, please play along & hope that he won't take the next illogical step.

 

[210]

I wouldn't be shocked if the buying cost was just assuming the team's debts.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I wouldn't be shocked if the buying cost was just assuming the team's debts.

That's also a possibility.

Edit: Didn't mean to hit send there so quickly.

It's entirely possible that there was a debt transfer transaction, but it depends how the business entity is organized and whether Kirnan's name is on any of the corporation's debt instruments. If he's smart, the business is organized as an LLC or S-Corp and he's not on any of the loans. But this is the FHL, so he probably is.

If the team is organized as a partnership, hoo boy...

 

[sabremike]

Got my Bees gammer from their first ever game. Say what you will about how disorganized they were but the guy in charge of selling them got my request, sent me the PayPal request and got it sent out real quick:

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Fly by night operations like the FHL and it's running joke of a product deserve the criticism they get. As to people who say, "But it's hockey, and that's what matters!"

If there were five restaurants in the city, and one was serving Alpo and calling it beef stew and everyone knew it, wouldn't you be critical of the people that showed up and ate the Alpo? If you were the owner of one of the other restaurants, don't you think the impression of the customers sickened by eating the Alpo could end up cutting into your business?

 

[sabremike]

I haven't shat upon the AHL. I don't shit upon the ECHL. I shit less upon the SPHL than I used to, now that they're starting to treat employees and players the right way, mostly since Bart Rogers has joined the league in Peoria.

Fly by night operations like the FHL and it's running joke of a product deserve the criticism they get. As to people who say, "But it's hockey, and that's what matters!"

If there were five restaurants in the city, and one was serving Alpo and calling it beef stew and everyone knew it, wouldn't you be critical of the people that showed up and ate the Alpo? If you were the owner of one of the other restaurants, don't you think the impression of the customers sickened by eating the Alpo could end up cutting into your business?

Here is the problem you either don't understand or just choose to ignore: The places with FPHL teams are places that due to many factors couldn't end up with a team in any other league and this is the best they can do right now. I am well aware of the fact that the FPHL isn't the most professional outfit in the world but it is what it is. If you want to have a go at people poisoning a market try having a go at people way farther up on the hockey food chain like the nitwit Pegulas or other NHL owners who are doing tons more damage to the sport than even the biggest minor league carnys like Cashman could ever dream of.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Here is the problem you either don't understand or just choose to ignore: The places with FPHL teams are places that due to many factors couldn't end up with a team in any other league and this is the best they can do right now. I am well aware of the fact that the FPHL isn't the most professional outfit in the world but it is what it is. If you want to have a go at people poisoning a market try having a go at people way farther up on the hockey food chain like the nitwit Pegulas or other NHL owners who are doing tons more damage to the sport than even the biggest minor league carnys like Cashman could ever dream of.

Here is the reality you either don't understand or choose to ignore:

Every city with a rink doesn't need a team. Period.

Why does the Brewster Ice Arena (which is a total dump) need a pro hockey team? For G-d's sake, they don't even maintain the resurfacing machines there. The nets don't have pads in them. You can literally see the old bluelines from 10 years through the ice. It's beyond pathetic. So that Sean Sullivan, who couldn't stick on two bottom-feeding Division III college teams can say he played "pro hockey" and keep fleecing parents to pay for their kids to get clinic time with a "pro player?"

Why does Mentor, Ohio need a team? Battle Creek? Danville?

Just because they have rinks, they should have pro hockey?

Your ideas are like letting anyone buy a house and then wondering how the mortgage crisis happened.

 

[sabremike]

Here is the reality you either don't understand or choose to ignore:

Every city with a rink doesn't need a team. Period.

Why does the Brewster Ice Arena (which is a total dump) need a pro hockey team? For G-d's sake, they don't even maintain the resurfacing machines there. The nets don't have pads in them. You can literally see the old bluelines from 10 years through the ice. It's beyond pathetic. So that Sean Sullivan, who couldn't stick on two bottom-feeding Division III college teams can say he played "pro hockey" and keep fleecing parents to pay for their kids to get clinic time with a "pro player?"

Why does Mentor, Ohio need a team? Battle Creek? Danville?

Just because they have rinks, they should have pro hockey?

Your ideas are like letting anyone buy a house and then wondering how the mortgage crisis happened.

Why the f*** shouldn't those places be allowed to have a team? Why should some guy with nothing better to do with his life than play minor league hockey insider on a message board get to dictate if they should have a team? And considering I live in Brewster I know about the Bulldogs: they were funded by Danbury as a one year stopgap team to make up the numbers ala the Hudson Valley Bears of the EPHL (Not funded by Danbury although the unfortunate Mad Hatters owner went broke in the middle of the season when his real business collapsed). And if you can show me how low level minor league hockey has caused the entire sport to implode I'd be interested to hear it, otherwise comparing it to the mortgage crisis is Planet Zongo level crazy.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Here is the reality you either don't understand or choose to ignore:

Every city with a rink doesn't need a team. Period.

Why does the Brewster Ice Arena (which is a total dump) need a pro hockey team? For G-d's sake, they don't even maintain the resurfacing machines there. The nets don't have pads in them. You can literally see the old bluelines from 10 years through the ice. It's beyond pathetic. So that Sean Sullivan, who couldn't stick on two bottom-feeding Division III college teams can say he played "pro hockey" and keep fleecing parents to pay for their kids to get clinic time with a "pro player?"

Why does Mentor, Ohio need a team? Battle Creek? Danville?

Just because they have rinks, they should have pro hockey?

Your ideas are like letting anyone buy a house and then wondering how the mortgage crisis happened.

Like the Fed has been the only league that has teams pop up and not last very long. The Bay Area lost the Seals and no one thought they ought to have a team. Then the Sharks came in and proved them wrong. Same thing with San Diego losing multiple hockey teams and being a market no one thought should have hockey. Now look at how well the Gulls are doing. The NHL let Hartford have a team, and they were a minuscule market that wasn't even the biggest city in the state. Do you remember the clown show that was the Cleveland Barons? Beast of New Haven? Stop acting like the Fed is special because of how often it has messed up.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Like the Fed has been the only league that has teams pop up and not last very long. The Bay Area lost the Seals and no one thought they ought to have a team. Then the Sharks came in and proved them wrong. Same thing with San Diego losing multiple hockey teams and being a market no one thought should have hockey. Now look at how well the Gulls are doing. The NHL let Hartford have a team, and they were a minuscule market that wasn't even the biggest city in the state. Do you remember the clown show that was the Cleveland Barons? Beast of New Haven? Stop acting like the Fed is special because of how often it has messed up.

The Gulls are doing well because the Ducks are forcing them to do things the right way.

Do you have any examples from the last 15 years?

 

[sabremike]

Like the Fed has been the only league that has teams pop up and not last very long. The Bay Area lost the Seals and no one thought they ought to have a team. Then the Sharks came in and proved them wrong. Same thing with San Diego losing multiple hockey teams and being a market no one thought should have hockey. Now look at how well the Gulls are doing. The NHL let Hartford have a team, and they were a minuscule market that wasn't even the biggest city in the state. Do you remember the clown show that was the Cleveland Barons? Beast of New Haven? Stop acting like the Fed is special because of how often it has messed up.

Hell, even the early years of MLS were more ridiculous and absurd than the FPHL (Seriously, go look up some of the insanity that took place back then). The best way to think of the FPHL is like an indy pro wrestling promotion (CZW, ECWA, 3PW ect.) or as adult travel teams where instead of paying to play they get paid a modest amount.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The Gulls are doing well because the Ducks are forcing them to do things the right way.

Do you have any examples from the last 15 years?

From the last 15 years?

1. The Manchester Monarchs tenure in the ECHL comes to mind.
2. Calgary's AHL teams run by Petrovek before he was fired.
3. New Jersey's AHL teams have burned through markets at a marginally slower rate, but with a comparable amount of damage.
   
4. The Fresno Falcons folded mid-season after the ECHL had absorbed them despite knowing their lack of sustainability.
5. CHL St. Charles Chill, as JMC can attest to.
6. Bloomington, IL through multiple teams in multiple leagues.

 

[sabremike]

From the last 15 years?

1. The Manchester Monarchs tenure in the ECHL comes to mind.
2. Calgary's AHL teams run by Petrovek before he was fired.
3. New Jersey's AHL teams have burned through markets at a marginally slower rate, but with a comparable amount of damage.
   
4. The Fresno Falcons folded mid-season after the ECHL had absorbed them despite knowing their lack of sustainability.
5. CHL St. Charles Chill, as JMC can attest to.
6. Bloomington, IL through multiple teams in multiple leagues.

SF Bulls in the ECHL a few years back who folded mid season.

Florida Seals in the SPHL got clubbed in the middle of the season.

Chicago Express were one and done.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Maybe you guys can answer this: Who, exactly, is the Federal Prospects Hockey League developing prospects for?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Maybe you guys can answer this: Who, exactly, is the Federal Prospects Hockey League developing prospects for?

Three things are coming from you asking this question:

1. You're no longer going about how the league is poor quality. You're going onto player development. Don't skip around. The league isn't very good, some players wouldn't stand out in beer league. You ever watch non-league soccer in England? It's not good, and none of the thousands who attend the games on average would say it's high quality. But just because it isn't the NHL doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable to fans.
   
2. The answer: the FPHL has a number of players who get called up and moved up to the SPHL. Check out their transactions page on Eliteprospects.com
3. Lastly, who is the SPHL developing prospects for? SPHL to ECHL movement isn't as common as FPHL to SPHL. The ECHL really doesn't produced that many regular AHLers. Outside of the NHL-AHL movement, there isn't a lot.

You pick on the Fed. A lot. Fair play, they are easy to pick on. But you clearly don't think that most minor league hockey has its place. And it does. For a lot of people.

 

[JMCx4]

From the last 15 years? ...

5. CHL St. Charles Chill, as JMC can attest to.
6. Bloomington, IL through multiple teams in multiple leagues.​

I weep often for both. And you could add ... 7. Moline, IL

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I weep often for both. And you could add ... 7. Moline, IL

I was going to give Moline a break because they appear to have found their groove in the SPHL after a difficult ride that started with Calgary burning through the market like their team name would suggest. Do you think I should add Moline?

 

[JMCx4]

... I was going to give Moline a break because they appear to have found their groove in the SPHL after a difficult ride that started with Calgary burning through the market like their team name would suggest. Do you think I should add Moline?

Only for a sense of completeness (as your arguments are falling on deaf ears), though I'm confident their are other cities missed. More importantly, your characterization of the QC Storm finding their "groove" is premature at best. I'd at least give them time to name a replacement for departed team president Gwen Tomberg, and another season (whenever that may be) to see if the change was a positive one for business stability. QDC hockey has been on rough ice for many years, and I don't think SPHL membership has smoothed it out any.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Three things are coming from you asking this question:

1. You're no longer going about how the league is poor quality. You're going onto player development. Don't skip around. The league isn't very good, some players wouldn't stand out in beer league. You ever watch non-league soccer in England? It's not good, and none of the thousands who attend the games on average would say it's high quality. But just because it isn't the NHL doesn't mean it isn't enjoyable to fans.
   
2. The answer: the FPHL has a number of players who get called up and moved up to the SPHL. Check out their transactions page on Eliteprospects.com
3. Lastly, who is the SPHL developing prospects for? SPHL to ECHL movement isn't as common as FPHL to SPHL. The ECHL really doesn't produced that many regular AHLers. Outside of the NHL-AHL movement, there isn't a lot.

You pick on the Fed. A lot. Fair play, they are easy to pick on. But you clearly don't think that most minor league hockey has its place. And it does. For a lot of people.

If it were developing legitimate prospects, it wouldn't be poor quality. The SPHL isn't developing prospects either, but they don't hold themselves out as a "prospects league" either.

I don't watch soccer - I'm not trying to be a wannabe European hipster who's too cool for North American sports.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

If it were developing legitimate prospects, it wouldn't be poor quality. The SPHL isn't developing prospects either, but they don't hold themselves out as a "prospects league" either.

I don't watch soccer - I'm not trying to be a wannabe European hipster who's too cool for North American sports.

If you reference the Fed changing their name, it's to avoid a lawsuit over anything else. I wouldn't expect someone like you to fall for propaganda. And the ECHL brands itself as a big development league, I don't see you attacking them.

You may not watch soccer, but it doesn't mean you can't understand the logic. Local people supporting and watching local teams. The quality of play is not high, but it is supported regardless. Maybe there wouldn't be so many problems over there with North American minor hockey if more North Americans would support their local teams rather than follow teams in big league markets simply because they're the highest quality (and often following teams on the other side of the country). Us European hipsters have figured it out. Imagine promotion and relegation, I don't your non-European hipster mind could handle something that immensely improves league quality like that.

 

[sabremike]

If you reference the Fed changing their name, it's to avoid a lawsuit over anything else. I wouldn't expect someone like you to fall for propaganda. And the ECHL brands itself as a big development league, I don't see you attacking them.

You may not watch soccer, but it doesn't mean you can't understand the logic. Local people supporting and watching local teams. The quality of play is not high, but it is supported regardless. Maybe there wouldn't be so many problems with over there with North American minor hockey if more North Americans would support their local teams rather than follow teams in big league markets simply because they're the highest quality. Us European hipsters have figured it out. Imagine promotion and relegation, I don't your non-European hipster mind could handle something that immensely improves league quality like that.

Funniest thing is that I've been an Empire Supporters Club member since 2001 and a regular at Giants Stadium and RBA for almost two decades and almost everyone in the club is a huge hockey fan (several even post on these forums). In fact as a general rule most soccer fans I have met are usually big hockey fans. People always knock the sport because there's not enough scoring but to me that's actually part of the appeal: The rarity of a goal makes it mean so much more, it just has so much more impact.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

If you reference the Fed changing their name, it's to avoid a lawsuit over anything else. I wouldn't expect someone like you to fall for propaganda. And the ECHL brands itself as a big development league, I don't see you attacking them.

Why were they trying to avoid a lawsuit?

Oh yeah, because they couldn't be bothered to operate their business in a manner that protected both ownership and players.

Please, go ahead and justify any business at all - not a professional hockey league - continuing to operate in that manner.

The FPHL, Kirnan, et al are just lucky that Kyle Moje was willing to settle. He shoulda ran their ass into the dustbin of hockey history - and he could have.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Why were they trying to avoid a lawsuit?

Oh yeah, because they couldn't be bothered to operate their business in a manner that protected both ownership and players.

Please, go ahead and justify any business at all - not a professional hockey league - continuing to operate in that manner.

The FPHL, Kirnan, et al are just lucky that Kyle Moje was willing to settle. He shoulda ran their ass into the dustbin of hockey history - and he could have.

They were trying to avoid a lawsuit because they couldn't afford the millions Moje might have been able to get. They were hardly the first to get sued. The NHL (link: https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/11/13/nhl-concussion-lawsuit-settlement-wins-losses-former-players) and NFL (Two more companies added to lawsuit filed against NFL Players Association and Dallas Cowboys Merchandising for filing False Counterfeit Complaints against a small business selling products on Amazon, NFL paid Kaepernick, Reid under $10M to settle collusion lawsuit: Report) to get sued for various reason. They both continued operating in similar manners. You're thinking that the Fed is special. Just about everything the Fed does, someone else much more legitimate has had it happen to them before. And usually quite recently.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Funniest thing is that I've been an Empire Supporters Club member since 2001 and a regular at Giants Stadium and RBA for almost two decades and almost everyone in the club is a huge hockey fan (several even post on these forums). In fact as a general rule most soccer fans I have met are usually big hockey fans. People always knock the sport because there's not enough scoring but to me that's actually part of the appeal: The rarity of a goal makes it mean so much more, it just has so much more impact.

It wasn't really knocking the sport, it was the support at the lower levels for the sport that we were getting at