Is Patrice Bergeron a HOF Candidate ?
- Thread starter ted2019
- Start date
Langway gets way too much credit for the Washington turnaround already.
People seem to forget that Jarvis (who would go on to win the Selke the eyar after the trade), Engblom and Laughlin were also included in that deal.
All 4 players were a reason why the Capital went from 12th in GA to 5th.
Another large part was that all 4 players were key to the PK which went down to 4th in the league from 9th the season before.
Also the season before the Captials had a huge revolving door of Dmen in part due to injuries.
Langway played in 80 games, the season before it was Terry Murray in his final NHL season with 74
Engblom replaced Green 77-65 GP
Rookie Scott Stevens 77 games replaced Darren Veitch's 67 GP
Thereberge and Holt played 70 games each in 82-83 and Blomqvist played in 61 games.
There was simply much more stability in the lineup with all 4 former Habs, but especially so on the back end.
Sure but Bergeron is a much larger piece to the Bruins success than Gainey was to the Habs.
Also Chara, as good as he is, wasn't the Big 3 in late 70's NHL either where the gap between great and poor teams was huge.
Bergeron's role was more akin to Lemaire, who for some reason really gets overlooked at times.
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,862
- 16,354
that may be true, it may not be true. but it isn't really the point is it?
the point is, we have the exact example of a generationally elite pure defensive player moving from a first place team to last place team, taking on more responsibility, getting more credit, getting into the hall of fame. so the hypothetical gainey on the capitals making the hall of fame "would be considered a joke plain and simple" doesn't really hold water, does it?
I think comparing a Dman in Langway, who everyone agrees was basically gifted 2 Norris trophies as a backlash to the Norris always going to the highest scoring Dman, getting into the HHOF is entirely different than a defensive winger.
Craig Ramsay was a heck of a better all around winger than Gainey but he didn't play on a dynasty plain and simple.
If Gainey had played in Washinton during the Habs dynasty and had been the exact same player there never would have been a HHOF discusion for him.
His inclusion to the HHOF was a mistake and will be further compounded by guys like Carbs.
Also are you calling Langway "generational elite" as a defensive Dman?
That's highly subjective to say the least.
Gainey was a secondary and complimentary player, plain and simple.
Bergeron isn't. He is one of the guys driving the bus on his teams.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,815
- 16,549
Bergeron may not make it on his first year if he's somehow eligible for the first time the same year as Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin and Henrik Lundqvist are. There might be another possibly combo but I think this one is reasonably likely.
But other than that...
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,862
- 16,354
fwiw, i wonder about gainey's offensive ability under different circumstances. in the last year of the habs dynasty, with shutt, lapointe, larouche, houle, and jarvis all missing time, and savard having the flu in the finals, gainey finished third on the habs in scoring, behind lafleur and lemaire.
the guy stepped up big time when he was needed, for which he was rewarded with the conn smythe. i mean, on top of being the best defensive forward in the world, he finished second in the playoffs in ES points (behind only lafleur). he also was second in goals in the finals, one behind lemaire, and the leader in ES goals. he doubled his playoff goal total in the finals and had more goals than any ranger had points.
here's game two:
the rangers won game one, then score two early in game two, which lambert and lafleur get back.
@0:47 gainey gets between the d and scores the go-ahead goal late in the first; the habs never look back, winning 6-2 and tying the series.
@1:13 gainey picks of mcewen's pass in transition, feeds napier all alone in the slot for the final goal.
here's game four:
@0:16 gainey on the forecheck causes the turnover and he sets up houle for the open net, answering pat hickey's early opening goal a minute later
@0:56 gainey bowls over a rangers defenseman, walks in and picks a corner on davidson, tying the game and sending it to overtime
feels pretty bergerony to me. i guess watching these highlights it's hard for me not to wonder if bowman decided to put gainey on the left side next to lemaire and lafleur (which he did for a bit of the '79 playoffs), the way tikkanen rode shotgun with gretzky and kurri as the dirty work guy, or bergeron's late career role with marchand and pastrnak, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. i mean watch gainey on the forecheck in those videos, and look what he does once he has the puck; it's not like he wouldn't have contributed.
not that having different responsibilities would have made gainey's career any better than it actually was, of course; he'd have just done more of his work in the swimsuit competition.
the guy stepped up big time when he was needed, for which he was rewarded with the conn smythe. i mean, on top of being the best defensive forward in the world, he finished second in the playoffs in ES points (behind only lafleur). he also was second in goals in the finals, one behind lemaire, and the leader in ES goals. he doubled his playoff goal total in the finals and had more goals than any ranger had points.
here's game two:
the rangers won game one, then score two early in game two, which lambert and lafleur get back.
@0:47 gainey gets between the d and scores the go-ahead goal late in the first; the habs never look back, winning 6-2 and tying the series.
@1:13 gainey picks of mcewen's pass in transition, feeds napier all alone in the slot for the final goal.
here's game four:
@0:16 gainey on the forecheck causes the turnover and he sets up houle for the open net, answering pat hickey's early opening goal a minute later
@0:56 gainey bowls over a rangers defenseman, walks in and picks a corner on davidson, tying the game and sending it to overtime
feels pretty bergerony to me. i guess watching these highlights it's hard for me not to wonder if bowman decided to put gainey on the left side next to lemaire and lafleur (which he did for a bit of the '79 playoffs), the way tikkanen rode shotgun with gretzky and kurri as the dirty work guy, or bergeron's late career role with marchand and pastrnak, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. i mean watch gainey on the forecheck in those videos, and look what he does once he has the puck; it's not like he wouldn't have contributed.
not that having different responsibilities would have made gainey's career any better than it actually was, of course; he'd have just done more of his work in the swimsuit competition.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Maybe I'm missing someone obvious, but who are the last couple of forwards to make the Hall of Fame who clearly did not have enough of an offensive resume to get there on offense alone? Bob Gainey and guy carbonneau, right?
the reason I mention that is, that's only two guys and a period Of about 30 years, whereas starting shortly, we are going to see five forwards almost certainly get into the Hall of Fame whose offense of resumes were not quite Hall of Fame calibre but whose defense put them over the top, not to mention the obvious contribution to winning that two-way play made.
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Toews
Kopitar
Bergeron
the reason I mention that is, that's only two guys and a period Of about 30 years, whereas starting shortly, we are going to see five forwards almost certainly get into the Hall of Fame whose offense of resumes were not quite Hall of Fame calibre but whose defense put them over the top, not to mention the obvious contribution to winning that two-way play made.
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Toews
Kopitar
Bergeron
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Consider the following seven since 1989.
Bob Pulford,Woody Dumart,Edgar Laprade,Harry Watson, Bobby Bauer, Dick Duff, Joe Nieuwendyk.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Agreed. Especially about Lemaire.
But lets face it, Bergeron is getting in on his defensive play. Chara has been as big a defensive factor as Bergeron for the Bruins.
Last season was Bergeron's best offensive season in a 15 year career. Credit to Marchand and Pastrnak.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was looking more for recent examples of that kind of player, as opposed to late inductions who fit the bill. Otherwise, there are four good examples above.
However:
- there's little to no evidence that Duff was any sort of defensive player. Gritty, tough, clutch, but quotes about his defense are few and far between, and he did not kill penalties. (16 PPGA from 1960 onwards, one every 47 games on average)
- Bauer seems to have been a pure finesse player. Dumart was a stud defensively, so was Schmidt, there's plenty of information to support that but not for Bauer.
- Nieuwendyk? Gimme a break. He received 4 selke votes in his entire career (and that was in 2004 after joining Toronto, where he didn't even have a defensive role). It was only after he retired that this narrative about him being great defensively started to take hold. No one thought so when he played.
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2007
- 28,862
- 16,354
tbh, i think datsyuk is probably good enough even without the selkes. actually, when all is said and done kopitar might be too, in a steady modano/sundin-y way.
MadLuke
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2011
- 9,581
- 5,207
Many of those would have comparable career offensively than player's that made it in the hall without that defensive side of their game I feel like, specially Kopitar, Datsyuk, Zetterberg (one of the most playoff points of is era).
Top 10 finish / ranked in point during their career / ppg during their career
McDonald...: 8-10./..#8 in points / #14 in ppg
Andreychuck: 9..../.#11 in points / #28 in ppg
Nieuwendyk.: 0..../.#18 in points / #24 in ppg
Anderson...: 9..../.#12 in points / #17 in ppg
Datsyuk....: 4-4-10./.#8 in points / #10 in ppg
Zetterbergh: 6-8..../.#8 in points / #17 in ppg
Toews......: 0....../#14 in points / #18 in ppg
kopitar....: 7....../.#6 in points / #16 in ppg
Bergeron...: 0....../#20 in points / #33 in ppg
If Bergeron end up with over 1000 points, (813 at 33 with a 79 in 65 games last year with a good chance to play on one of the best line in the league for a while) that will be similar to a Joe Mullen that made the Hall doing it in the ultra high 80s scoring environment.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
1965 Finals, against Chicago, Dick Duff held Ken Wharram to 1 goal in 7 games. Game 7 is available on you tube.
Watch and get back to us. Hint opening goal and assist on Cournoyer goal.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
- 50,815
- 16,549
The obvious player missed here being Clark Gillies.
Controversially, Joe Mullen.
And other than offence and timely offence, Mullen didn't bring lots of things other than a passport.
Last edited:
Sentinel
Registered User
Datsyuk and Zetterberg might have gotten in on offense alone. The problem with them was that their offensive game was so tightly intertwined with their defensive game, it's hard to tell where one ended and another began. They both played defense even when playing offense.
Sure what you say is true but when you compare Gainey and Carbonneau to this list of 5 guys in terms of offense it's not even close.
Datsyuk- 3 times top 10 in scoring and 3rd in playoff scoring over a 5 year period of time.
Zetterberg- 2 times top 10 in scoring and the leading scorer in the playoffs for a 5 year period
Toews doesn't fare as well in offense with only a 5th place in goals one time but he is 4th in playoff scoring over a 9 year period.
Kopitar has 3 top 10 finishes in assists and once in points and has twice led the playoffs in scoring.
Bergeron has had some injuries but had 79 points in 65 games last year a level of offense neither Gainey or Carbonneau ever matched.
The difference between one group of guys (the 2 Habs) and the other group is that the Habs group were specialists and complimentary players on their teams, the other group of 5 guys were driving the bus on their teams and that should mean something for the HHOF.
It should be comprised of the best players driving teams not complimentary ones that were complimentary specialist role players.
The obvious player missed here being Clark Gillies.
Controversially, Joe Mullen.
And other than offence and timely offence, Mullen didn't bring lots of things other than a passport.
I think that with Shutt, Barber and Gillies and Barber getting into the Hall it was going to be hard to keep Mullen out.
Mind you Gillies got in after Mullen.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yes, I know they had better offensive records than some bad Hall of famers.
Yep, that's the key to victory. Shut down Ken Wharran!
The obvious player missed here being Clark Gillies.
Controversially, Joe Mullen.
And other than offence and timely offence, Mullen didn't bring lots of things other than a passport.
Gillies wasn't even a defensive player himself, but I get your point.
As for Mullen, he had no needle moving intangible qualities, so the thinking at the time was that he had done enough offensively to merit induction (which was wrong, imo). Same with Anderson, Andreychuk, Nieuwendyk, McDonald...
We've been through this already. Raw point totals and ability are not always directly related.
At the end of the day members should be looking at what potential inductees into the HHOF actually did not what they might have been able to do.
The 5 guys you listed have very clear HHOF resumes, the 2 Habs clearly don't and they are the obvious outliers and really role players for the better part of their respective careers.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Never let the depth players beat you. Previous season and 1966-67 Wharram was a 1st team All-Star over Gordie Howe.
Of course if Wharram got hot the narrative would have been Duff couldn't cover Wharram.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,542
- 4,947
That's the series Viktor Tikhonov watched when he said Gainey may be "technically, the best player in the world."
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Read Dryden's book "The Game".
Gainey was not considered a secondary or complimentary player.
I have read Dryden's great book several times but we and the HHOF committee always need to make our own conclusions based on the evidence at hand.
In the top 100 players project one poster had Lafleur as the 6th best player of all time and part of his argument was that without him the Habs wouldn't have been a dynasty.
It's up to us and other people like the HHOF committee to test those assertions with the information we know.
Was Gainey more integral than Lafleur, Dryden, Robinson, Savard, Lemaire, Shutt ect...
Another poster chiming in for Fetisov claimed that he was integral to their SC wins.
I challenged him on that and he refused to respond, probably because it was an absurd claim.
That's what we need to do when asking was Gainey a secondary or complimentary player for the Habs dynasty, the evidence is there in plain site.
Ad
Upcoming events
-
UFC 301 - Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Alexandre Pantoja vs Steve ErcegWagers: 1Staked: $50.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
-
-
