Is our TOP4 (D) Really that bad ?

[Trapper]

This is just my opinion.
When you look at Rielly,Gardiner and Zaitsev as individuals, they all have good traits which people like. These traits cause some to protect an individual more fiercely.
But they all have an inconsistent element in their game (at the worst times sometimes) and as a group I just don’t think it’s good enough as a top 4. They should each be in a different unit with a more consistency beside them. They can’t be 3 of 4.

 

[Joey Hoser]

When you have Jake Gardiner in your top 4 obviously it’s bad let alone Zaitsev.

Gardiner was 15th in scoring amongst defensemen

I know he makes you want to throw your beer sometimes, but this is the epitome of emotion over reason. Common man.

 

[rent free]

Gardiner was 15th in scoring amongst defensemen

I know he makes you want to throw your beer sometimes, but this is the epitome of emotion over reason. Common man.

he is a defensive sieve who plays soft and turn the puck over way too much

 

[stickty111]

When you have Jake Gardiner in your top 4 obviously it’s bad let alone Zaitsev.

Gardiner is a good #3 d man, and cam play as the #2.

 

[-DeMo-]

I think this largely depends on how one views our players.

Morgan Rielly to me broke out as a legitimate #1 D last season. He logs big minutes, against stupid high competition, and drives results.

Jake Gardiner gets a lot of flack. At the end of the day, he's amazing 90% of the time, and has brutal mental breakdowns the remaining 10%. I think he's a great #3D to have.

Nikita Zaitsev had pretty much as bad as a season as you can expect. I personally think we'll see a better player next season, so as of right now, he's a fine #4D.

Ron Hainsey is excellent as a bottom pairing defender, would do much better against lower compeitition and mentoring a kid like Travis Dermott.

Travis Dermott is a great young player. Learning on the bottom pairing. Very reliable for his age as well.


So overall, I think we have a solid enough defensive roster. It's about who is playing beside Morgan Rielly next season. That is the single biggest thing to be determined in my opinion.

Morgan Rielly avg'ed 21:36 in ice time per game, that's not really big minutes, thats 4th among our Dmen and 64th league wide. and he didn't play more as the season went on either from february 1st and on he was under 21 minutes. what I find odd is there's so much out cry on this board about Matthews minutes and komarov/Hymans in the opposite direction but nobody complains about Rielly's minutes yet call him a #1D. if he truely is at that level why is he not in the 23-25 minute range? why doesn't he play the most minutes on the team. it's not like we have a stellar top 6 and can spreed out the minutes. yet there's pretty much nobody talking about his lack of minutes...

the team also was tied for the 4th worst xGA/60 in the league last year only ahead of NYR/NYI/EDM which to me suggest Andersen bailed them out alot. gave up the 4th most shots against aswell. I'm not saying there awful defensively but there worst then the 11th in GAA would indicate imo in terms of defense as a team.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

Gardiner was 15th in scoring amongst defensemen

I know he makes you want to throw your beer sometimes, but this is the epitome of emotion over reason. Common man.

This brain dead chicken had single handedly lost us the whole series in the last game and has done it very many times during the regular seasons. It’s nothing new but you need your top 4 to be steady, yeah they might have an off night here and there but what a disastrous garbage this thing is. Even if he puts up 80 points next season you can not win a cup with such a brain dead person in your top 4.

 

[Notsince67]

Morgan Rielly is incredibly underrated. Does anyone realize the tough minutes he plays?

7th toughest in the league and close to Doughty

 

[darrylsittler27]

IN one word our defense is bad and needs to be upgraded or we will not win, period. Stop dreaMING AND GET BACK TO REALITY.

 

[Gary Nylund]

he is a defensive sieve who plays soft and turn the puck over way too much

Yeah but that describes your posts perfectly and ... um ... never mind ...

 

[NCoRe]

IN one word our defense is bad and needs to be upgraded or we will not win, period. Stop dreaMING AND GET BACK TO REALITY.

Not dreamin nor do i say its good enough. Simply sayin its lot better than a lot of folks are screamin (includin you apparently)

 

[rent free]

Yeah but that describes your posts perfectly and ... um ... never mind ...

That's makes absolutely no sense. Did you type '...' because you were stumbled on what makes sense and what doesn't?

 

[DarkKnight]

When Hainsey is on the third pair and playing half the PK I will like our defence. One caveat, our team D instantly improves without Bozak and JVR, they have always been a black hole defensively.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

When Hainsey is on the the third pair and playing half the PK I will like our defence. One caveat, our team D instantly improves without Bozak and JVR, they have always been a black hole defensively.

Everytime I saw them paired with Gardiner and the amount of icings they had during the playoffs and regular season, ugh. Let’s just forget about it move Gardiner and move on for good.

 

[saltming]

This is just my opinion.
When you look at Rielly,Gardiner and Zaitsev as individuals, they all have good traits which people like. These traits cause some to protect an individual more fiercely.
But they all have an inconsistent element in their game (at the worst times sometimes) and as a group I just don’t think it’s good enough as a top 4. They should each be in a different unit with a more consistency beside them. They can’t be 3 of 4.

If only they could be 7 of 9!

I think Reilly is becoming steadier and more reliable. Same with Z. Sophomore season gives him a pass. Gardner is what he is; tantalizing to the eye and a good player but prone to brain farts

 

[ponder]

Our top 2 pairings are really:

Rielly - Hainsey
Gardiner - Zaitsev

Rielly is a decent 1D - not a strong 1D (which would be a top 10 dman in the league), but not a weak one either.

Hainsey is a good 4D, but a weak 2D, and you can see him starting to slow down a bit with age.

Gards has a lot of talent, but his game is SO flawed. Great skating, very good shot, good hands, but ... makes TERRIBLE mistakes basically every game, super soft, goes on long stretches where his effort sucks. He can’t be relied on, and personally I want him off the team.

Zaitsev is a fine 4D, but a poor fit with Gards. Makes some mistakes, but not a tonne, and has a reasonably well rounded game. Not a tonne of standout skills, but that’s OK for a 4D.

We do have Dermott, who is a GREAT 5D, and I think he could quickly mature into a very good, 2-way 3D. If we can find a way to move Gards + other pieces for a 2D, I think we could have a strong lineup, especially once Liljegren makes the team (Hainsey will likely be gone by then):

Rielly - [good 2D from trade]
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - Liljegren

That’s a strong lineup (assuming a good 2D)! Don’t like our current lineup though:

Rielly - Hainsey
Gards - Zaitsev
Dermott - [was Polak, maybe Carrick?]

The 2nd pair is very unreliable, and the top pair a bit weak.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Rielly ______
Gardiner Zaitsev
Dermott Hainsey
Rosen Carrick
Borgman Ozhiganov/Holl

 

[Duffman955]

Name 1 reliable shutdown dman on the team.

Ya not a single one. Closest thing we have is Hainsey and Polak. Thats possibly worst in the NHL

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

Here is the reality:

1) Gardiner is a major problem. He is soft, brain dead, and doesn’t understand situational hockey. How anyone would want this guy on this team especially after his awful playoff is beyond me. -5 in game 7.. LOL. But +\- doesn’t matter, either does the eye test on here. Gardiner is a coach killer and a complete and total embarrassment. You can’t win with this guy it is just not possible. Trade him.

2) Zaitsev does nothing well and his contract is an albatross. He literally does nothing at a high level and has many decencies, and plays very soft. Maybe you can hide him on the 3rd pairing, because no one will pick up his contract in a trade. He has no value to other teams. His ceiling is a mediocre #5, but is more likely to be bought out at some point.

3) Reilly is not a shooter. As a true offensive dman you need to be a threat from many areas of the ice, and he just isn’t. Mostly due to his non existent slap shot, and mediocre IQ. He can not QB a PP1. He also does not provide a physical prescence and plays small. He does not understand situational hockey. He moves the puck very well and skates well. He is ideally a high end #3 guy. He is a quality NHL player but not the stud many think he is.

4) Dermott clearly will blossom into a quality NHL dman and played very well this year. Exceeded expectations by a country mile.

5) Polak deserves another year. He fills a role and got better as the season went on. Had a quality series and especially game 7 against Boston. At his price point he slots in nicely as a #6/7 guy ,provides quality penalty killing and a major physical presence.

Basically, there are 2 quality top 4 guys we will have for a long time, in Dermott and Reilly. Gardiner should be moved at the first reasonable offer. Leafs need to find their stud dman, someone like Provorov from Philly. Dubas needs to look to move players such as Nylander, Tim L and Gardiner + picks to do so. He needs to be extremely aggressive in acquiring that player because it will not happen unless he makes a major trade. Leafs defense is a bottom 5-8 unit in the league.

 

[ponder]

Name 1 reliable shutdown dman on the team.

Ya not a single one. Closest thing we have is Hainsey and Polak. Thats possibly worst in the NHL

Agreed, although I will say I’m super impressed with Dermott’s defensive game, I think he could be a great shutdown guy in a few years. I think if we could make a move for a great shutdown 2D, and dump Gards, we could have a good defensive group. It’s weak right now, though.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

We need size in the back end, period. Only Gardiner is 6’3 and Zaitsev I think 6’2(?) but we can just count those two out as long as they are paired together. Hainsey is also big but I won’t count him since he is gonna be gone after this year or may not be anything more than 6/7 D further down his career.

Dermott, Rielly, Liljegren all 6’0 and they are the best we got. I really hope Rasanen and Greenway pans out for us because we need those kind of hard nosed players with size really really bad.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

Not sure how you did your ratings but Washington and Vegas defences are so far superior defensively to Toronto it is like comparing a gorilla to a mouse. From a defensive perspective (forget the offensive) we are bottom 5 in the nhl. Rielly is best we got but he would the #1 on Carolina, Colorado, Detroit, New York Rangers and Edmonton. All other teams he would be #2 at best. After him it really drops off. Gards is a 3 or 4 on most other teams but only for offence. After that wow it is truly pathetic. Dermott is too young to figure out yet but he is best we got for future. The rest of the guys are border line nhl/ahl players.

 

[Joey Hoser]

From a defensive perspective (forget the offensive) we are bottom 5 in the nhl.

The Leafs were 20th/31 in GA.

Don't lets facts get in your way though.

The Leafs have average defense and goaltending.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's makes absolutely no sense. Did you type '...' because you were stumbled on what makes sense and what doesn't?

I suspected the point might sail over your head. Good on you for trying at least though.

 

[LeafFever]

he is a defensive sieve who plays soft and turn the puck over way too much

This isn't true. He's always had very good defensive advanced stats. He'll be a top 4 D no matter where he goes next. He's also getting a big raise. People go over-the-top in knocking Leafs D.

 

[LeafFever]

7th toughest in the league and close to Doughty

Yup. The haters will never comment on this.