Is our TOP4 (D) Really that bad ?

rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
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If you want to have a rational discussion, I suggest you stop routinely using words like "insane", "turnover machine", "crap" and so on. Also stop insisting you're some know-it-all oracle, it makes you sounds like an arrogant d-bag. I hope that helps.
its not my fault you can't handle the truth. also, i never insisted i'm some know-it-all oracle whatsoever. you are feeling offended by what i'm saying because its the opposite of what you are saying, which is incorrect. you are oblivious getting confused.
 

Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
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Our defense top 4 was extremely uneven with highs and lows last season.

The most consistant all season was probably Rielly even though I thought he may have played his worst hockey of the season early in the Boston series, he bounced back and finished the series strong. He's going to be on the top pairing for a long time and is not really a worry unless you expect him to be a Karlsson or something.

Gardiner is what Gardiner is. He is mostly brilliant and has that odd game where he has a rough game and too bad for us that it happened to be THAT game. Most of the board saw him as our best dman before that game so he was a real good player for us overall. He is a great number 3 on any team and I hope we keep him but the price has to be right.

Zaitsev had some real problems with injury and rumored personal issues and was a shell of what we thought he could be until late February when he got over his leg injury and his analytics spiked, peaking as one of our best playoff performers. His continued solid play at the worlds and a 30ish game sample size of playing well overall gives me hope that he is over what was troubling him and he would be a solid long term number 4.

Hainsey looked like a helluva pickup midway through the season but then the massive workload we were subjecting him to along with the crazy load from the prior season started to show and he ended the season on a real low note, almost a reverse of Zaitsevs season. I think he could still be an effective player for us with a more targeted approach to his icetime. I'm not a fan of keeping him in the top pairing.

Pretty much on board with finding a solid partner for Rielly and I'm happy with running those next year....not saying that's going to be easy though. Expect to lose some nice pieces to get it done.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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he had a great save percentage and he faced a lot of shots when he was in net.
Yup, he had the best save percentage of his career at 34 years old after being waived the season before. Now ask yourself why did he pull everything together now?
 

rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
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Yup, he had the best save percentage of his career at 34 years old after being waived the season before. Now ask yourself why did he pull everything together now?
it certainly wasn't because of the leafs defense. thats preposterous. the leafs defense allowed an average of 33 shots on goal from the games mcelhinney started.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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it certainly wasn't because of the leafs defense. thats preposterous. the leafs defense allowed an average of 33 shots on goal from the games mcelhinney started.
So tell me why it was.

For the record i think our D needs to be improved, I just don't think it's as far away as many people think. Rielly's legit top pair, Gardiner is a fine 2/3 and Dermott has potential (but wasn't good enough in the playoffs) and you have a fine bottom pair in Hainsey-Zaitsev. Problem is you need another D equal or better to Gardiner to stabilize everything.
 

Puckstuff

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May 12, 2010
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Honestly I would rank us around 18th-20th. A lot of question marks. I like Rielly and Dermott a lot. I think Zaitsev could turn it around. Hainsey is a good/decent vet. Gardiner needs to go... and while he could turn it around; it just feels like a gamble.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
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When your goalie bails you out 24/7 and your offence scores quite a bit of goals, then yes you do 'finish with as good a record as we did with a "bad" defense corps'.

Claiming that forwards = team offense and defensmen = team defense is fairly dumb, for the record.

The mobility and puckmoving abilities of our defensemen is a crucial part of our great team offense.

Meanwhile, the poor defensive abilitiesof many of our forwards is a big part of our mediocre team defense.
 

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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When your goalie bails you out 24/7 and your offence scores quite a bit of goals, then yes you do 'finish with as good a record as we did with a "bad" defense corps'.
Andersen was good last season. let's not make him sound like a Vezina winner.
 

Zybalto

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Dec 28, 2012
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Claiming that forwards = team offense and defensmen = team defense is fairly dumb, for the record.

The mobility and puckmoving abilities of our defensemen is a crucial part of our great team offense.

Meanwhile, the poor defensive abilitiesof many of our forwards is a big part of our mediocre team defense.

Exactly.

The youth of our core is probably part of the issue as well as I could see a natural gradual improvement next year. Kadri may not be the selke defensive guy some say but it took time for him to develop his defensive game and he is night and day compared to 5 years ago. All our young players are only going get better here and the remaining vets with that issue are almost gone this summer....
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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Goalies who don't play well in the playoffs don't count as having played well. He was absolutely terrible
he was great in nearly half the games (games 3,5 and 6). that doesn't change the fact that the defense is atrocious
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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Andersen was good last season. let's not make him sound like a Vezina winner.
i'm not making him sound like a vezina winner. i'm saying the truth. he was our mvp by far because out defense was horrendous. i'm quite surprised you were one to say "let's not make him sound like a Vezina winner"
 

rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
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Claiming that forwards = team offense and defensmen = team defense is fairly dumb, for the record.

The mobility and puckmoving abilities of our defensemen is a crucial part of our great team offense.

Meanwhile, the poor defensive abilitiesof many of our forwards is a big part of our mediocre team defense.
i'm not claiming that at all. our forwards defense was pretty bad but our blue line defense was the main reason why he sucked in our own zone. just the slightest pressure on one of hainsey/zaitsev/gardiner/reilly and chaos ensues
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
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To be fair, he was only terrible half the series :sarcasm:
Overall...: .896 with a 3.76 GAA.

This whole conversation reminds me of the time when Reimer was criticized for his play. His numbers were quite good and he was a big reason why the leafs got as far as they were.
Well naysayers...here it is. A so-called good goalie who crapped the bed with fewer shots than the alleged bum who was run out of town.
Saying that Gardiner is crap is so friggin ignorant that I can easily dispel the premise with one fact.
Why the general consensus that Gardiner is due a big pay increase in a year? I am expected it to be rhetorical but I am sure that AL can't wait to show his superior intellect yet again by making a few more profoundly ignorant statements.
 
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Zybalto

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Dec 28, 2012
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i'm not making him sound like a vezina winner. i'm saying the truth. he was our mvp by far because out defense was horrendous. i'm quite surprised you were one to say "let's not make him sound like a Vezina winner"

Anderson is a bottom of the top 10 goaltender that was one game away from being pulled from the series.

He was mediocre to bad in 4 of the games and we lost the series. It wasn't just the defense. He overplayed pucks, let in softies and looked uncomfortable for much of the series. He was also great in one of the games and solid in two others.

We need him to just be consistantly solid in the playoffs though.
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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So tell me why it was.

For the record i think our D needs to be improved, I just don't think it's as far away as many people think. Rielly's legit top pair, Gardiner is a fine 2/3 and Dermott has potential (but wasn't good enough in the playoffs) and you have a fine bottom pair in Hainsey-Zaitsev. Problem is you need another D equal or better to Gardiner to stabilize everything.
he had a great season because he played amazing. the leafs defense bolsters how good he was. the leafs need blueliners that don't turn the puck over every time they get pressured
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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Anderson is a bottom of the top 10 goaltender that was one game away from being pulled from the series.

He was mediocre to bad in 4 of the games and we lost the series. It wasn't just the defense. He overplayed pucks, let in softies and looked uncomfortable for much of the series. He was also great in one of the games and solid in two others.

We need him to just be consistantly solid in the playoffs though.
i agree that he was terrible in most of the games, but the leafs defense allowed the bruins to get prime scoring opportunities. if they didn't allow the opportunities as much, andersen wouldn't have allowed as many goals and he wouldn't have been regarded as bad as he is now.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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he had a great season because he played amazing. the leafs defense bolsters how good he was. the leafs need blueliners that don't turn the puck over every time they get pressured
Again, why did he play amazing? This is a guy who was on waivers a year ago and is no spring chicken. Also funny that you claim Andersen was our MVP when his backup had better numbers (which seems so important to you).

For the pressure, you're lumping together too many players to oversimplify. Gardiner is at his best under pressure, put on a heavy forcheck and he can skate pucks out. Take away options and he struggles. Zaistev's big issue is that he doesn't make himself a good option and misread situations. Its more about positional play than pressure for him. Ranting about preasure makes me wonder how closely you're following this group of D.
 

Ricky Bobby

Registered User
Aug 31, 2008
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Claiming that forwards = team offense and defensmen = team defense is fairly dumb, for the record.

The mobility and puckmoving abilities of our defensemen is a crucial part of our great team offense.

Meanwhile, the poor defensive abilitiesof many of our forwards is a big part of our mediocre team defense.

Fortunately, the forwards should be better at supporting them.

3 of our big minute guys in Matthews, Marner, Nylander should be even better at supporting the D. Hyman, Marleau, Kadri should be about the same.

Losing Bozak + JVR who had to be sheltered will make a huge difference. Brown, Johnsson and Kapanen will see elevated minutes with all of them being far better on the defensive side of the puck.
 
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DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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Overall...: .896 with a 3.76 GAA.

This whole conversation reminds me of the time when Reimer was criticized for his play. His numbers were quite good and he was a big reason why the leafs got as far as they were.
Well naysayers...here it is. A so-called good goalie who crapped the bed with fewer shots than the alleged bum who was run out of town.
Saying that Gardiner is crap is so friggin ignorant that I can easily dispel the premise with one fact.
Why the general consensus that Gardiner is due a big pay increase in a year? I am expected it to be rhetorical but I am sure that AL can't wait to show his superior intellect yet again by making a few more profoundly ignorant statements.
Reimer wasn't a bum by any means, but if there was such a double standard here, why didn't some astute GM pick him as their starter? Why could the great one only get backup gigs, and even last year when Lou went down, he actually lost the gig to the third string AHL goalie for a stretch. I bought my kid a Reimer poster, so I never hated the guy obviously, but the revisionism and "raw deal" nonsense we must endure simply isn't backed up by reality. He was all yours rest of the league for nothing, and yet he never became a starter besides here. The jury is still out on Andersen, the verdict is in on Reimer....clearly, unequivocally.
 

Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
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i agree that he was terrible in most of the games, but the leafs defense allowed the bruins to get prime scoring opportunities. if they didn't allow the opportunities as much, andersen wouldn't have allowed as many goals and he wouldn't have been regarded as bad as he is now.

5v5 Scoring chances were pretty even for the series though. High danger ones were perfectly even.

I still think Anderson is a good keeper who got cold at the wrong time. He'll be better next year......

And what do you think about the defense of other teams that are similar to the Leafs in turnovers like say, Washington?
 

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
18,890
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This team is in great shape. Do people not follow the NHL?

And LOL @ Gardiner not being a top 4 D. He'll be signed to a 6-7 year deal next summer by some team at a big raise and be their top 4 D.
 

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