Is our TOP4 (D) Really that bad ?

[NCoRe]

Depends on how you wanna count them its imo

Reilly/Gardiner/Zaitsev/Dermott, but even with Hainsey (RD) to replace Dermott. Let's really think how bad is it ?

Morgan Rielly 24yrs [6+46]
Jake Gardiner 27yrs [5+47]
Nikita Zaitsev 26yrs [5+8]
Ron Hainsey 37yrs [4+19]
Travis Dermott 21yrs [1+12]

Offensively they're more than fine. 2 50+ pts D's is rare thing to have and while we allways complain about the d-zone that is a thing we cannot dismiss either. The diss of Zaitsev have been brutal to watch. Did he have a good season ? No. Is he a solid TOP4 D in the league. Yes. He will not score a lot and that is just fine with me. I've seen enough this guy to say, that when confidence and health is back to normal he's more than good D to have. Second pairing RD as a free wallet is a nice to thing to have. Hainsey was our rock in the d-zone and PK all season long and like most would agree too much. That doesnt mean he's a bad D. He is a very solid and balancing pair to some offensive d or youngster like Dermott. Dermott will be surefire TOP4 D for us (if not allready. So even without addition I'd say it is pretty fine considering that our depth D is more than stacked. Borgman, Rosen, Holl, Ozhiganov, Carrick & Liljegren is more than enough.

So even without additions (which I would like to see...more on that later)

Is our D worse than other teams top4 ? Let's see (there might be few mistakes and these are my opinions so feel to disagree)



FOWLER/MANSON/LINDHOLM/MONTOUR

Verdict: Anaheim wins quite easily and they have other ones coming aswell.



OEL/CHYCHRUN/GOLIGOKSI/HJALMARSSON

Verdict: I think we win with a good margin. While OEL is elite I'm not 100% sold on Jakob yet and Goligoski is declinin. Hjalma is underrated though.



MCAVOY/CHARA/KRUG/CARLO

Verdict: I'd say Bruins win, but actually to me it's really close. Chara is old af and while Mcavoy is awesome, same cannot be said for Carlo yet. Krug's d-zone coverage is worse than Gardiner. Still B's win by little



RISTOLAINEN/DAHLIN/SCANDELLA/BEALIEU or MCCABE

Verdict: We win even with Dahlin with them. Rasse is a very good d but needs sheltering and other one's dont impress with any way.



GIORDANO/BRODIE/HAMONIC/HAMILTON

Verdict: Do I need to say ? Flames torches us pretty easily and it's not even close.



SLAVIN/PESCE/FAULK/HANIFIN

Verdict: Same goes here. They win even if Hanifin doesn't pan out as good as predicted. If Faulk leaves it becomes more close though.



KEITH/SEABROOK/MURPHY/RUTTA

Verdict: Win to Leafs and while Keith is still awesome that's about it. Seabrook is an anchor other 2 are barely TOP4.



BARRIE/JOHNSON/ZADOROV/GIRARD

Verdict: Close, but I'd say we win still comfortably. Girard can develop to make it close one, but for now Leafs win.



WERENSKI/JONES/MURRAY/SAVARD or NUTIVAARA

Verdict: Easy win to BJ's and the age of these d's keep impressing for years.



KLINGBERG/METHOT/LINDELL/JOHNS

Verdict: EASILY to Leafs. This is so brutal D. They really need help...



DEKEYSER/DALEY/JENSEN/KRONWALL

Verdict: Wow.... This is just horrible... To Leafs 100-0



KLEFBOM/LARSSON/NURSE/RUSSEL or BEAR

Verdict: Maybe better defensively, but not impressed at all. Leafs win. If and When Bear turns the page to become an excellent D then it's close.



EKBLAD/YANDLE/MATHESON/PYSYK

Verdict: It's close but Imma still say Leafs win..... No... Imma say Draw..



DOUGHTY/MUZZIN/MARTINEZ/PHANEUF

Verdict: Simply because of DD I'm gonna say Kings win. Otherwise it's slow AF, but Doughty is just so good.



SUTER/DUMBA/SPURGEON/BRODIN

Verdict: I've allways thought Spur is overrated, but nonetheless they win comfortably.



WEBER/PETRY/METE/ALZNER

Verdict: We win. Mete is an awesome prospect, but still the jury is out there for him and Alz is not a top4. Weber is getting old really fast.



JOSI/ELLIS/EKHOLM/SUBBAN

Verdict: ^ nuff said... it's not even fair considering they have fabbro coming along aswell...



SEVERSON/VATANEN/GREENE/BUTCHER

Verdict: I think it's quite close, but still I'd say we take this simply because Greene is not what he was. Not sold on Butchers consistency neither.



BOYCHUK/LEDDY/PULOCK/PELECH (I know there's no de haan but that's because he's ufa)

Verdict: I know this will cause controversy, but I'm still gonna say we take this. Really close, but still I'd say we.



SHATTENKIRK/SKJEI/STAAL/DEANGELO

Verdict: Though Skjei is one of my fav's in the league and Shatty is good offensively. We win.



KARLSON/CHABOT/CECI/BORO?

Verdict: We.... Even with Karlson... we.... Chabot might be elite, but not sure yet and seems like Ceci can't put it together.



PROVOROV/GHOST/SANHEIM/GUDAS

Verdict: Flyers takes this even with Provo and Ghost alone, but they have future for years.



LETANG/SCHULTZ/DUMOULIN/MÄÄTTÄ

Verdict: Actually its really close, but since Letang seems to decline even this I would put to Leafs.



BURNS/VLASIC/BRAUN/DEMELO

Verdict: Not really deep D but first pairing keeps on givin love to them. Sharks win because of it.



PIETRANGELO/PARAYOKO/BOUWMEESTER/EDMUNDSON

Verdict: Blues takes this easily. Good mix of vet's and young power.



HEDMAN/STRALMAN/SERGACHEV/MCDONAGH

Verdict: Wow.... One of the best D's with NSH. No chance for us.




TANEV/HUTTON/EDLER/STECHER or POULIOT

Verdict: We take this one while I think there's some hope with that d. not a lot though...




SCHMIDT/THEODORE/MILLER/MCNABB

Verdict: It's close but just because they went to SCF I'mma be full of mercy and say they got this (also cuz I really like MIller and Theodore)



CARLSON/NISKANEN/ORLOV/Whoever

Verdict: Yes now you will blast me as an idiot and a homer, but I say we take this. We have deeper D. Carlson is the best one outta them and better than any of ours.



TROUBA/BUFF/MYERS/MORRISEY

Verdict: Wins easily since there's also Kulikov, Enström and others.

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So all and all there's 14 better D's out there IMO and 1 draw. Still we have better D-core atm than 15 teams imo. Then we must consider that If and when Dermott grows even better we can definitely considering trading Gardiner to something and use that or Gardiner himself with something liek Brown to get some RD for us and we will become even better.

Who would I target ?

I'd say Trouba is the best one out there, but cuz the price might be wayyyyy to much I'mma say no. Tanev scares me, but with a cheap price yes.

Something like Gardiner + Carrick + Brown ---> SJS and DeMelo, Roy and Martin (Cap Dump) maybe a 2nd to throw in. We would get solid DeMelo and awesome prospect with Roy.


I sincerely think that we don't need 1d to pair with Rielly. We need minor upgrade for sure, but I think our D gets too much criticism as a whole from us. What do you think

Click to read more...

 

[ShaneFalco]

Whatever system our D plays needs tweaking. They should not be running around so much in their own end, and allowing the opposition to walk right in.
A free wallet is nice to have but a guy signed for 7 years at 4.5 after a year in the league is a tad scary. Hopefully he bounces back

 

[X66]

It's a combination of:

Our right side being the worst in the entire NHL.

Our D-pairings are like Oil and Water, and some of the worst in the NHL in terms of chemistry. None of them compliment each other well, the sad thing is, the Dermott and Polak pairing was probably the best chemistry wise...

This is why I am stoked that guys like Dermott and Liljegren have great chemistry with each other.

I was really hoping to gram Schmidt and K.Miller before the expansion draft, but Vegas knew what they were doing.

 

[LeafGrief]

Our right side is garbage, our left side is excellent. Overall, that puts us probably around average. We were 11th best in the league for goals against last year, so it's certainly not an oozing wound like some make it out to be, but it's not a real asset for us. An addition to the right (and that could be as simple as Zaitsev finding his confidence) and improvements in our forwards defensive abilities will help us take the leap into being a top5 team in the league.

 

[Mickey Marner]

IMO

Top pairing d: Rielly

Middle paring d: Gardiner, Dermott

Bottom pairing d: Zaitsev, Hainsey, Borgman, Rosen

Zaitsev should/could be a top-4 but he plays with no confidence in himself.

Our LHS d are solid, our RHS d are the worst in the league.

 

[Community]

Theres a bunch of yours that I personally disagree on (for example, Miller was TERRIBLE in the Finals for Vegas and their defense as a group is significantly worse than ours), but you are right that our defense on paper is not a big issue.

The issue the last few years has been our team defense, which was hurting for multiple reasons (some lazy/sub-par defensive players, missing a top rhd/poor rhd overall, and average to below average defensive system).

With the continuing input of better 2-way players (growth from our young players as well as kapanen + Johnsson in/JVR possibly Bozak out) we will hopefully see some more progress. However, another RHD that is a #3 or better to play with Rielly would really help.

Rielly - xxxx
Gardiner - Hainsey/Zaitsev
Dermott - Zaitsev/Hainsey

The above is a top 10 defense in the league if Zaitsev plays with confidence and the xxx is a 2way #3 or better, even if Dermott/Hainsey dont play quite as good as last year.

We have always had an issue with one of our 1st pairing dmen playing significantly over their head the last 10 or so years with Hainsey/Zaitsev being the best and Aulie/Kostka being the worst. Put a decent #3 or better in there and the difference is night and day. While it would be nice, we dont need a Doughty type player, we just need somebody that can be okay in that role and we'll be fine.

 

[Liminality]

I think if we get that top pairing RHD, the trickle down effect for the rest of the defense would be absolutely massive. We're not that bad or far off from a good d group but it's also one of the hardest positions to pick up if you don't have one.

So yeah I agree as a whole our d core isn't as bad as people say it is but there's a clear problem with it if teams know to just pressure the right side all the time.

 

[Duckrider]

We either need a RT handed Gardner for Rielly or a RT handed Rielly for Gardner.

 

[ToneDog]

Yes but they can be better, hopefully no worse.

 

[rent free]

its awful. just a bunch of weak defensive turnover machines

 

[shortfuze]

I don't think our top 4 D is THAT bad. granted I don't like gardiner and would like to get rid of him. however I don't think the D is the main issue. its the whole team defence they need to fix.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Agree on the whole team defence and having one-way JVR and Bozak gone will help.

 

[blueberrie]

Yes and no.

People who say its a bottom 5/10 D are blinded by Leafs hate, but I cant see this core going the distance without an addition.

We desperately need Dermott or Liljegren to develop into top pair dman who can take on top competition.

Our team D is lacking and our forwards need to support breakouts better. But that could be an age thing, plus itll be nice not having a baby soft 3rd line once JVR and Bozak go.

Worst case scenario is neither Dermott or Lil step up and Gardiner outprices the Leafs.

 

[Zybalto]

No our defense is not bad....its just not our strong suit.

Our left side is fine.

Our right side needs a partner for Rielly but I thought Polak got better as the season went on and was good in the playoffs and may have earned himself a depth contract.

Hainsey just needs to be sheltered now with his age catching up and is a great 3rd pairing dman who can be a horse on the PK with his reduced minutes.

Zaitsev was good the last quarter of the season and was great in the playoffs and Worlds but still has "confidence issues". That's as bad as saying Gardiner is complete trash after game 7 despite being number one almost everyone top d list for us prior to the game. They are both fine.

I know the top line RHD is a big hole but it would really fill out our lineup in a huge way. I expect a trade soon

 

[Nineteen67]

Agree on the whole team defence and having one-way JVR and Bozak gone will help.

Don’t forget Nylander and Marner who oftentimes get run over in their own end. But they are not alone, which makes the D look bad

 

[Duckrider]

No our defense is not bad....its just not our strong suit.

Our left side is fine.

Our right side needs a partner for Rielly but I thought Polak got better as the season went on and was good in the playoffs and may have earned himself a depth contract.

Hainsey just needs to be sheltered now with his age catching up and is a great 3rd pairing dman who can be a horse on the PK with his reduced minutes.

Zaitsev was good the last quarter of the season and was great in the playoffs and Worlds but still has "confidence issues". That's as bad as saying Gardiner is complete trash after game 7 despite being number one almost everyone top d list for us prior to the game. They are both fine.

I know the top line RHD is a big hole but it would really fill out our lineup in a huge way. I expect a trade soon

We re lacking both a first pair RtD and a 2nd pairing RtD.

 

[LeafFever]

It's much better than given credit for.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I don't think our top 4 D is THAT bad. granted I don't like gardiner and would like to get rid of him. however I don't think the D is the main issue. its the whole team defence they need to fix.

Bingo!

The forward group has been a major issue. They have been garbage at supporting the D group either because the vets were poor in that area or the youth factor. However, two vets who left a lot to be desired in that area in JVR & Bozak are likely moving on this summer.

Further development of Dermott and Zaitsev regaining his game after an injury plagued campaign give a lot of reason for optimism. Also I expect Dubas at the very least to bring in another Hainsey type for the 3rd pair as an upgrade on Polak/Carrick which would help a lot.

Looking beyond next season, having Liljgren replace Gardiner will help even out the LD-RD situation.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

No it's not that bad. Leafs fans and other fans seem to the fascination that a team absolutely need 3 or 4 RHD on a team.
Certainly Dermot has to prove to he NHLer, Zaitsev has to play like year one. Borgman. Rosen or Holl have to show they are competent NHLers. But many teams have the same questions about their players.
IMO if the some of the younger players show some growth this year, then 2019/20 and beyond looks pretty promising....and that's without UFA Gardiner.

 

[Zybalto]

We re lacking both a first pair RtD and a 2nd pairing RtD.

Agree with the 1st pairing but I'm betting on being fine with the guy who was was in the top 5 for 2nd pairing dman in the playoffs and was one of the best dman at the worlds.......and just wait till he gets his confidence back.....

 

[Menzinger]

There’s definitely a lot of Over exaggeration of how bad they are. There’s some good skill, and especially on the bottom pairing there are guys who potential he could be much more than what they are a present by a development. That said the right-hand side is still looking pretty ugly, there’s not enough guys who can move the puck out of the zone which forces the lease to rely on the left hand for breakouts from the D at least. We saw Boston exploit this huge leader in the series, where over exaggeration of how bad that they are. There’s some good skill, and especially on the bottom pairing there are guys who potential he can be much more than what they are at present via development.

That said the right-hand side is still looking pretty ugly, there’s not enough guys who can move the puck out of the zone which forces the leafs to rely on the left hand for breakouts from the D at least. We saw Boston exploit this huge leader in the series, where they kept the Eecwntnllayoffs

 

[Cor]

I think this largely depends on how one views our players.

Morgan Rielly to me broke out as a legitimate #1 D last season. He logs big minutes, against stupid high competition, and drives results.

Jake Gardiner gets a lot of flack. At the end of the day, he's amazing 90% of the time, and has brutal mental breakdowns the remaining 10%. I think he's a great #3D to have.

Nikita Zaitsev had pretty much as bad as a season as you can expect. I personally think we'll see a better player next season, so as of right now, he's a fine #4D.

Ron Hainsey is excellent as a bottom pairing defender, would do much better against lower compeitition and mentoring a kid like Travis Dermott.

Travis Dermott is a great young player. Learning on the bottom pairing. Very reliable for his age as well.


So overall, I think we have a solid enough defensive roster. It's about who is playing beside Morgan Rielly next season. That is the single biggest thing to be determined in my opinion.

 

[LeafFever]

Morgan Rielly is incredibly underrated. Does anyone realize the tough minutes he plays?

 

[613Leafer]

So all and all there's 14 better D's out there IMO and 1 draw. Still we have better D-core atm than 15 teams imo.

We want to win the Cup, not be a middle of the pack team. Can't compare ourselves to crappy teams and pat ourselves on the back, gotta be able to beat the BEST out there.

Also, I didn't go through all your comparisons, but Washington for example has a solidly better blueline than us. Niskanen is a stud defensively, better than anything we have, and Carlson is a stud offensively, better than anything we have in that respect. Orlov, Orpik, etc round them out too. So we might be ranked more in the ~15-20 range, strictly looking at bluelines.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

When you have Jake Gardiner in your top 4 obviously it’s bad let alone Zaitsev.