Is MacKinnon A Top Ten Player?

[Strait2thecup]

Look, you can keep saying that, but the actual voting doesn't play that out. It was too close for you to be trying to suggest that MacKinnon finishing 2nd, and extending his gap would have no significance.

The actual voting says that it was extremely close but what Hall did given his team put him above mackinnon ever so slightly. I agree with that completely and it has nothing to do with games played imo and certainly not “storyline”

 

[Sojourn]

The actual voting says that it was extremely close but what Hall did given his team put him above mackinnon ever so slightly. I agree with that completely and it has nothing to do with games played imo and certainly not “storyline”

You realize it's the voting that decides things, right? MacKinnon got a lot of 1st place votes. It's not like the voting was close strictly because MacKinnon was getting the 2nd place votes. Your entire argument is based on your opinion, and not what actually happened with the voting.

The point here is that it may not have taken much for some of those 1st place votes to go MacKinnon's way, which would have lead to him winning the Hart. Increasing the point gap and finishing 2nd overall in points? I think that might have been enough.

Is it speculation? Yes. The difference here is you're speaking in absolutes, and suggesting there is nothing MacKinnon could have done simply because you think Hall was more deserving. Between you and Echo, your argument is the less logical and the more emotional. The fact you aren't even willing to concede that it could have happened is ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

 

[Strait2thecup]

You realize it's the voting that decides things, right? MacKinnon got a lot of 1st place votes. It's not like the voting was close strictly because MacKinnon was getting the 2nd place votes. Your entire argument is based on your opinion, and not what actually happened with the voting.

The point here is that it may not have taken much for some of those 1st place votes to go MacKinnon's way, which would have lead to him winning the Hart. Increasing the point gap and finishing 2nd overall in points? I think that might have been enough.

Is it speculation? Yes. The difference here is you're speaking in absolutes, and suggesting there is nothing MacKinnon could have done simply because you think Hall was more deserving. Between you and Echo, your argument is the less logical and the more emotional. The fact you aren't even willing to concede that it could have happened is ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

I literally never said it couldn’t have happened... I said they chose the right winner

 

[Sojourn]

I literally never said it couldn’t have happened... I said they chose the right winner

You said it wouldn't have made a difference.

Repeatedly.

 

[Sojourn]

The irony in all this, is neither guy got out of the first round,and the real MVP was excluded because the media has decided the MVP for the regular season can not come from a team that misses the playoffs. My argument, is if a guy is that good to be even considered with his team out of the playoffs, he must be a special talent indeed. Why would you exclude him from voting on a regular season honor. It is mind boggling now the scotch drinking media, have made up their own rules,and this new wrinkle is going to be firmly entrenched until it is not. You know what I mean. They have turned it into a joke. How can you possibly ever give this award to another hockey player who doesn’t make the playoffs? If the media ever does, the the MVP is a real joke.

He wasn't excluded. He simply didn't get enough votes, because the MVP is an award associated with your team being successful as a result of your play.

The Art Ross is the award McDavid deserved. It's the one he got.

 

[Tralfamadore]

The irony in all this, is neither guy got out of the first round,and the real MVP was excluded because the media has decided the MVP for the regular season can not come from a team that misses the playoffs. My argument, is if a guy is that good to be even considered with his team out of the playoffs, he must be a special talent indeed. Why would you exclude him from voting on a regular season honor. It is mind boggling now the scotch drinking media, have made up their own rules,and this new wrinkle is going to be firmly entrenched until it is not. You know what I mean. They have turned it into a joke. How can you possibly ever give this award to another hockey player who doesn’t make the playoffs? If the media ever does, the the MVP is a real joke.

Making the playoffs is an accomplishment and being the most valuable player on that team is worth being recognized. No one denies McDavid is the best player in the league but being the most valuable player on a team that accomplishes absolutely nothing is not really worthy anything.

Avs/Devils without MacKinnon/Hall don't make the playoffs. Oilers without McDavid STILL suck.

 

[Strait2thecup]

You said it wouldn't have made a difference.

Repeatedly.

2 games? Ywah I don’t think so

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

The optics of Hall having such a higher point total than the next highest Devil probably put his voting over the top. If he had a Rantanen of his own running PPG numbers beside him then it might have gone differently.

 

[Oilerfan1000]

Making the playoffs is an accomplishment and being the most valuable player on that team is worth being recognized. No one denies McDavid is the best player in the league but being the most valuable player on a team that accomplishes absolutely nothing is not really worthy anything.

Avs/Devils without MacKinnon/Hall don't make the playoffs. Oilers without McDavid STILL suck.

Explain previous winners of this award that never made the playoffs?. Just trying to get an understanding on this whole thing.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Explain previous winners of this award that never made the playoffs?. Just trying to get an understanding on this whole thing.

The voters perspective of what the award is and who is deserving of it may change over time.

 

[Mulletman]

NHL.com says no: #NHLTopPlayers: Nos. 20-11

So I think it's pretty safe to say he's not a top 10 player if all the experts at NHL.com don't even put him in their Top 10...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

no.

he certainly played like one last year, but needs to repeat it for a few years first

 

[Foppberg]

I get why Hall won, at the time I was quite bitter but I mean what he did was ridiculous. He got basically zero help, and plays on the east coast. MacKinnon carried us to the playoffs, and he did have a better supporting cast.

 

[Battle Lin]

he could be top 5 after this season

 

[Sensinitis]

And yet, he's 2nd in total points and 6th in P/GP over the last 7 years. Interesting.

NHL.com - Stats
NHL.com - Stats

Lol, what results? What has he done? Guys like Kopitar, Getzlaf have dominated in the playoffs year in year out. Giroux has had some great moments but he’s never been as consistent. Stacking regular season power play points doesn’t make you elite. I mean, the guy was notorious for having brutal even strength production for a few years, no? You are not going to see that from elite centers.

Again, this is also because I don’t put nearly as much stock into the regular season than i do in the playoffs.

Edit: jesus, he’s not even a center anymore i now remember...makes it even more mind-boggling that this debate needs to be had.

 

[Rygu]

Top 10 forwards most likely, but not top 10 players.

 

[Sensinitis]

And yet, he's 2nd in total points and 6th in P/GP over the last 7 years. Interesting.

NHL.com - Stats
NHL.com - Stats

Just looking at that first list you posted, it’s crazy just noticing how many PP points Giroux has compared to the guys surrounding him in the list.

 

[StoneHands]

Giroux has accomplished nothing in the previous 3 seasons other than being a pp specialist. It's way more likely he regresses than Mack does.

MacKinnon scored 53, 52, 38, and 63 points the 4 seasons prior to 97 points last season. Giroux had 58, 67, 73, and 86 points the 4 years prior to his 102 points this past year. During those 4 seasons Giroux scored 78 more total points and while a large percentage came on the PP he still had the same amount of ES points.

Giroux's down years were as good or better than anything MacKinnon did before this season.

I think MacKinnon has a lot of great years ahead of him but let's not act like there's not a chance this season was an outlier in his career.

 

[Rebels57]

Lol, what results? What has he done? Guys like Kopitar, Getzlaf have dominated in the playoffs year in year out. Giroux has had some great moments but he’s never been as consistent. Stacking regular season power play points doesn’t make you elite. I mean, the guy was notorious for having brutal even strength production for a few years, no? You are not going to see that from elite centers.

Again, this is also because I don’t put nearly as much stock into the regular season than i do in the playoffs.

Edit: jesus, he’s not even a center anymore i now remember...makes it even more mind-boggling that this debate needs to be had.

There is so much nonsense in here, it's not even worth responding to.

Enjoy the Sens this season.

 

[StoneHands]

Just looking at that first list you posted, it’s crazy just noticing how many PP points Giroux has compared to the guys surrounding him in the list.

Giroux is a wizard on the PP but those points do count during the game, right? I know people like to downplay PP production but if the puck ends up in the back of the net I really don't care how many guys were on the ice. If scoring on the PP was so easy all the top players would be racking up points. As much as people label him a PP specialist he's still 14th in the NHL in ES points this decade, 1st in PP points, and 2nd overall. He had more ES points this decade than Stamkos, Thornton, Backstrom, Perry, Hall, and both Sedins.

 

[BillNy]

I 100% understand why someone would not want to say so after one big season when a year ago nobody would say that, but I've always been really high on him, his underlying numbers are good, I think the situation in Colorado has been turbulent since winning the President's trophy, and I think this was a) being 22 and breaking out, and b) the first year he's ever just been able to play in a non-bonkers scenario. He's a really good, really complete player.

 

[Holymakinaw]

LOL. Of course McKinnon is not a "top-10 player" in the league. If he repeats what he did last year he will be. But right now? No way.

McDavid
Kucherov
Ovechkin
Crosby
Malkin
Benn
Karlsson
Marchand
Stamkos
Tavares

......are all ahead of him at this point.

 

[Volica]

LOL. Of course McKinnon is not a "top-10 player" in the league. If he repeats what he did last year he will be. But right now? No way.

McDavid
Kucherov
Ovechkin
Crosby
Malkin
Benn
Karlsson
Marchand
Stamkos
Tavares

......are all ahead of him at this point.

Macks right there with Benn/Stamkos/Tavares in terms of caliber of player. If he repeats that ludicrous 2017/18 he had, he'll leap frog all of them.
Also absurd Bergeron/Kopitar don't make your top ten list but the three above do.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Macks right there with Benn/Stamkos/Tavares in terms of caliber of player. If he repeats that ludicrous 2017/18 he had, he'll leap frog all of them.
Also absurd Bergeron/Kopitar don't make your top ten list but the three above do.

LOL. "The three above" are way better.

 

[Volica]

LOL. "The three above" are way better.

The three guys are better than the dude who centres Crosby in the olympics and a top 5 centre in the NHL. Yeah okay.