Is MacKinnon A Top Ten Player?

Sensinitis

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The thing I feel many Giroux fans can’t grasp is that, as insane as his hockey IQ is, and he obviously has awesome hands as well, it doesn’t compensate for other areas where he lacks compared to elite players in the league. I don’t consider Giroux elite, even if he can and has performed at elite levels, as odd as that may seem of an opinion.
It’s just that not only is Giroux not a dynamic skater, he is also not super strong (please don’t post me a link to the hit on Crosby - he’s an nhl player, of course he’s stronger than most), maybe I should say “big” instead of strong, and he doesn’t really have that great a shot. The best comparable for Giroux is probably Backstrom, but I find Giroux is better, has a more killer instinct in the way he plays. Nobody in their right mind would ever call Backstrom a top 10 player i hope...

Guys like Getzlaf and Kopitar aren’t fast but they are much bigger and play a much “stronger” game. And while Getzlaf doesnt use his shot as much in the regular season, we know he can, and he has.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I'd like to see a repeat of last season (or at least close to it) before I'm comfortable talking about MacKinnon as a Top 10 player. IMO, players earn their ranking through multiple years of a certain level of play, not just one.
 

tucker3434

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Hall missed games too so no, he wouldn’t have one the Hart. I’ll say no he’s not just bc of this biased post

Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t make me wrong.

Hall barely won. Common sense tells us that had MacKinnon extended his point lead over Hall, he would’ve gotten it. Which is why the same people that voted Hall for Hart would call MacKinnon a top 10 player but not Hall.
 
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ijuka

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I think so.

if he regresses he regresses, but using info from last season he's a top 10 player to me.
 

GlitchMarner

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Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t make me wrong.

Hall barely won. Common sense tells us that had MacKinnon extended his point lead over Hall, he would’ve gotten it. Which is why the same people that voted Hall for Hart would call MacKinnon a top 10 player but not Hall.

What if Hall had played every game as well?
 

KidLine93

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He needs to prove he can play at that level for more than one season to be a top 10 player in the league. Same goes for Taylor Hall.
To be fair hall has been a top 10 scorer 3 times in his career i believe. This isn't the first time he's played like a star
 

Strait2thecup

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Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t make me wrong.

Hall barely won. Common sense tells us that had MacKinnon extended his point lead over Hall, he would’ve gotten it. Which is why the same people that voted Hall for Hart would call MacKinnon a top 10 player but not Hall.

Ok so what if Hall also played 82 games? What you said is stupid as shit. If mackinnon won and devils fans said that about Hall you wouldn’t be having it
 

GlitchMarner

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The thing I feel many Giroux fans can’t grasp is that, as insane as his hockey IQ is, and he obviously has awesome hands as well, it doesn’t compensate for other areas where he lacks compared to elite players in the league. I don’t consider Giroux elite, even if he can and has performed at elite levels, as odd as that may seem of an opinion.
It’s just that not only is Giroux not a dynamic skater, he is also not super strong (please don’t post me a link to the hit on Crosby - he’s an nhl player, of course he’s stronger than most), maybe I should say “big” instead of strong, and he doesn’t really have that great a shot. The best comparable for Giroux is probably Backstrom, but I find Giroux is better, has a more killer instinct in the way he plays. Nobody in their right mind would ever call Backstrom a top 10 player i hope...

Guys like Getzlaf and Kopitar aren’t fast but they are much bigger and play a much “stronger” game. And while Getzlaf doesnt use his shot as much in the regular season, we know he can, and he has.

Results are more important than style of play. Gretzky wasn't strong physically and didn't play a "strong" game (and no, I'm not saying Giroux is Gretzky obviously).
 

Rebels57

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The thing I feel many Giroux fans can’t grasp is that, as insane as his hockey IQ is, and he obviously has awesome hands as well, it doesn’t compensate for other areas where he lacks compared to elite players in the league. I don’t consider Giroux elite, even if he can and has performed at elite levels, as odd as that may seem of an opinion.
It’s just that not only is Giroux not a dynamic skater, he is also not super strong (please don’t post me a link to the hit on Crosby - he’s an nhl player, of course he’s stronger than most), maybe I should say “big” instead of strong, and he doesn’t really have that great a shot. The best comparable for Giroux is probably Backstrom, but I find Giroux is better, has a more killer instinct in the way he plays. Nobody in their right mind would ever call Backstrom a top 10 player i hope...

Guys like Getzlaf and Kopitar aren’t fast but they are much bigger and play a much “stronger” game. And while Getzlaf doesnt use his shot as much in the regular season, we know he can, and he has.

And yet, he's 2nd in total points and 6th in P/GP over the last 7 years. Interesting.

NHL.com - Stats
NHL.com - Stats
 

tucker3434

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What if Hall had played every game as well?
Ok so what if Hall also played 82 games? What you said is stupid as ****. If mackinnon won and devils fans said that about Hall you wouldn’t be having it

Either of Hall or Mack gets to 2nd in scoring behind McDavid, and they take the Hart pretty easily. MacKinnon only needed 5 points in those 8 games to tie for 2nd. Hall would’ve needed 9 in 6. Come on now. What’s more likely?
 

UnrefinedCrude

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Jun 7, 2011
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I'd say MacKinnon is a top 10 forward. I'd like to see some consistency before you write that in cement, or call him a top 10 player overall. Tonnes of potential to get there.

Matthews has potential to get there too, but he hasn't accomplished enough yet, to even be in the conversation.

Give these young guys some time to actually realize their potential before fighting over it. Rookie years don't matter after they're no longer rookies. What matters is actual performance and production. Top 10 is super elite. It's not a slight to say a player needs to do a bit more to earn the accolades.
 

Echo Roku

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Ok so what if Hall also played 82 games? What you said is stupid as ****. If mackinnon won and devils fans said that about Hall you wouldn’t be having it
He'd still have less points than MacKinnon. You realize Nate was well above Hall's productivity per game, yeah? And that Hall's almost entire claim to the Hart was based on the point differential argument between him and his teammates, yeah?

Realistically, the main reason Hall won is because the Avalanche had a slow stretch near the end of the season and the stories revolving around him petered out a bit. Especially with McDavid going on a tear and him losing any real shot at the Art Ross after getting injured.

The voting literally had 60 points different between them. That's less than 5% of Hall's total points. Add to the fact that there were a decent number of coastal based voters that didn't even vote for MacKinnon, it seems pretty obvious the end of the season storyline momentum was plenty plus some to swing it in Hall's favor
 

Strait2thecup

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He'd still have less points than MacKinnon. You realize Nate was well above Hall's productivity per game, yeah? And that Hall's almost entire claim to the Hart was based on the point differential argument between him and his teammates, yeah?

Realistically, the main reason Hall won is because the Avalanche had a slow stretch near the end of the season and the stories revolving around him petered out a bit. Especially with McDavid going on a tear and him losing any real shot at the Art Ross after getting injured.

The voting literally had 60 points different between them. That's less than 5% of Hall's total points. Add to the fact that there were a decent number of coastal based voters that didn't even vote for MacKinnon, it seems pretty obvious the end of the season storyline momentum was plenty plus some to swing it in Hall's favor

or the fact that second place in points on the Devils was like 52... quit the narrative that mackinnon got snubbed. It’s false
 

Sojourn

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Ok so what if Hall also played 82 games? What you said is stupid as ****. If mackinnon won and devils fans said that about Hall you wouldn’t be having it

If they both played 82 games, and they maintained their paces, Hall would have finished with 100 points.

MacKinnon would have finished with 107.

I think that's enough of a difference that MacKinnon could takes the Hart. As it was, the voting totals between the two was pretty close. It's not that far-fetched. MacKinnon would have finished a strong 2nd, just one point behind McDavid, and finished 7 points up on Hall.
 

Cult of Hynes

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If they both played 82 games, and they maintained their paces, Hall would have finished with 100 points.

MacKinnon would have finished with 107.

I think that's enough of a difference that MacKinnon could takes the Hart. As it was, the voting totals between the two was pretty close. It's not that far-fetched. MacKinnon would have finished a strong 2nd, just one point behind McDavid, and finished 7 points up on Hall.

Only 7 points more when he has more experienced and better proven talent around him and a more stable line to play on than Hall did.

The Avs 4th highest scorer, Barrie, would have been the Devils second highest scorer right beind Hall and slightly a head of Hischier.

Mack only finished 4 points a head of Hall with all that.
 

Echo Roku

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Only 7 points more when he has more experienced and better proven talent around him and a more stable line to play on than Hall did.

The Avs 4th highest scorer, Barrie, would have been the Devils second highest scorer right beind Hall and slightly a head of Hischier.

Mack only finished 4 points a head of Hall with all that.
I still think is a laughably silly argument. The Devils didn't score a significant amount less goals than the Avs did.

The points are there. Just more spread out.

Its just as easy to argument that Hall... "still managed to get beat by 4 points despite having more well rounded lineup to spread his competition's strength out against. Look at The Avalanche's secondary scoring"

Its super easy to turn the same thing on its head. Neither are good arguments.
 

Cult of Hynes

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I see you missed the part where I specifically mentioned Halls line not having the same sort of proven / experienced stable talent on it that Mack did.
 

Echo Roku

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I see you missed the part where I specifically mentioned Halls line not having the same sort of proven / experienced stable talent on it that Mack did.
And? I address that just as well with the point.

Also, going to lol at trying to establish Rantanen as proven and experienced.
 

Sojourn

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Nov 1, 2006
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Only 7 points more when he has more experienced and better proven talent around him and a more stable line to play on than Hall did.

The Avs 4th highest scorer, Barrie, would have been the Devils second highest scorer right beind Hall and slightly a head of Hischier.

Mack only finished 4 points a head of Hall with all that.

You can make all of those arguments, but when Hall was only 4 points behind him and MacKinnon finishing 5th in scoring, the voting was very close. MacKinnon would have finished 2nd in scoring, and 7 points up on Hall if they both maintained their pace.

There is a very good reason to think that MacKinnon playing the entire season would have won him the Hart. He would have extended the gap between him and Hall, and an already close vote could very easily have turned his way. Is it a sure thing? No, but all of those things you just listed were already true, and the voting came down to the wire. I simply don't think Hall playing the extra games helps him as much in the voting as it would MacKinnon. MacKinnon's pace was such that, if we assume the pace is maintained, those games just do more for MacKinnon.

It's all moot, because we only know what did happen, but if I were a betting man and we extrapolated those remaining games, I'd put my money on MacKinnon. He just looks that much sexier to voters when he finishes 1 point behind McDavid, further ahead of Hall, and with everything else already applied. He stands out more.
 
Last edited:

Cult of Hynes

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You can make all of those arguments, but when Hall was only 4 points behind him and MacKinnon finishing 5th in scoring, the voting was very close. MacKinnon would have finished 2nd in scoring, and 7 points up on Hall if they both maintained their pace.

There is a very good reason to think that MacKinnon playing the entire season would have won him the Hart. He would have extended the gap between him and Hall, and an already close vote could very easily have turned his way. Is it a sure thing? No, but all of those things you just listed were already true, and the voting came down to the wire. I simply don't think Hall playing the extra games helps him as much in the voting as it would MacKinnon. MacKinnon's pace was such that, if we assume the pace is maintained, those games just do more for MacKinnon.

It's all moot, because we only know what did happen, but if I were a betting man and we extrapolated those remaining games, I'd put my money on MacKinnon. He just looks that much sexier to voters when he finishes 1 point behind McDavid, further ahead of Hall, and with everything else already applied. He stands out more.

You can make up all the what ifs and assumptions you'd like. I really don't care. The fact is, MacKinnon had more experienced and stable line mates to work with and only managed to finish 4 points higher than Hall. And what stood out more was Hall's 26 game point streak, and the second leading scorer on the team being 42 points behind Hall.

Anyway. I think if MacKinnon plays like he did last year he is very much a top 10 player in the league. I see now reason why he won't play like he did last year given the skills he has and who his linemates are.
 

Echo Roku

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You can make up all the what ifs and assumptions you'd like. I really don't care. The fact is, MacKinnon had more experienced and stable line mates to work with and only managed to finish 4 points higher than Hall.
lol, wow. You really are one track minded. Find out a way to counter the points I made to show how inane that statement (plus all the fluff you're dancing around) is, yet?
 

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