Is John Tavares still a top 10 forward in the NHL?

[bauer]

Really? This whole thread is filled with Flyers fans and fans of other teams who bring up fancy stats to try to prove Tavares is overrated and you expect Islander fans to not react?

What about this?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1773353&highlight=giroux+tavares

And this?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1768935

And you wonder why Islander fans would get defensive after seeing some of the garbage posted in those threads? It's one thing to argue about who the better player is. It's another to mock and throw insults around.

go read StoneHands post again, which sums this whole thread up. Islanders fans were whining about Giroux in this thread long BEFORE any Flyers fan said anything about Tavares.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

Much like Seguin...Tavares has to prove he is a top guy for more than 1 year. It's hard to say someone is "still" a top 10 forward when they have finished top 15 in scoring 1 time....and was 7th.

Honestly...is it wrong to say prove it for a season....then prove again?

I will say that I understand the need to consistently prove over time in order to get into a top 10 list but....

1. He was 3rd in goals scored two years ago (although it was a strike season),
2. was 2nd (or 3rd depending on what day it was) in scoring last year prior to his injury
3. Has had a very sub-par season so far and is still within easy range of being in the top 10 of scoring and top 5 of goal-scoring.

He might not be top 10 but at age 24 he's pretty much proven he's a franchise player and one you build your team around. If that's not elite than I'm David Copperfield.

 

[bauer]

Wow, you really put us in our place

I don't want to put you "in your place". don't be mad. I'm happy you guys are relevant again. it's like you guys have emerged from some underground bunker that has been sealed for the past 30 years. this is great stuff. welcome back to the NHL! happy to have you guys back.

 

[StoneHands]

TrustyPatches isn't and Islander fan. I only responded because I knew it would start an unnecessary argument that always seems to come up in every Tavares thread. StrongIslanders90 is a good poster. I'm sure his intent wasn't anything malicious. The post by RMimagery was unnecessary but it didn't really say anything in terms of player comparisons or the ability of a player. To me, what Pure Slaughter Value said is 100% correct. All that can be argued. But the fact is Tavares has led the Islanders to being a solid team. He could have worded it better but the point is still the same.

So really, this argument was first brought up by a non Islander fan and continued by non Islander fans. I can also bring up a poll from a couple months ago where Flyers fans were mocking Islander fans and Tavares for the first 3-4 pages if you want. The fact is, other teams fans put a lot more stock into arguing that Tavares is overrated than Islander fans do arguing that Tavares is a top player and they do it in a much more vicious and malicious way.

You're completely missing the point. All the Islander fans in here said that this whole debate was started in this thread by Flyers fans. I know the first guy isn't an Islanders fan but he's also not a Flyers fan. my point is, it was started and then continues by Islander fans until Flyers fans finally chimed in at post 149 of this thread so don't act like Flyers fans saw a Tavares thread an ran in to derail it. Giroux's name was brought up multiple times before Flyers fans ever responded, regardless of whether you say the poster is a good one, or it could have been worded differently, that doesn't matter.

The season isn't over yet. If you want to do that I'll just add the year Tavares was in the league and Seguin wasn't

Benn is a better player than Okposo and is a much bigger offensive threat. Okposo will probably not be a 30 goals scorer and may never reach 80 points. Benn can do both. I also believe Benn has a bigger impact on Seguin than Okposo has on Tavares.

Again, you're missing the point. The point I was making is that the post specifically mentioned that Tavares doesn't have a good left winger and went on to talk about how Seguin plays with Benn. The post completely ignored the fact that Okposo plays with Tavares and is outscoring Benn. The post made it seem like Tavares plays with nothing but scrubs and Seguin plays with superstars when that's not really the case at all.

 

[CodeE]

You're completely missing the point. All the Islander fans in here said that this whole debate was started in this thread by Flyers fans. I know the first guy isn't an Islanders fan but he's also not a Flyers fan. my point is, it was started and then continues by Islander fans until Flyers fans finally chimed in at post 149 of this thread so don't act like Flyers fans saw a Tavares thread an ran in to derail it. Giroux's name was brought up multiple times before Flyers fans ever responded, regardless of whether you say the poster is a good one, or it could have been worded differently, that doesn't matter.

Again, you're missing the point. The point I was making is that the post specifically mentioned that Tavares doesn't have a good left winger and went on to talk about how Seguin plays with Benn. The post completely ignored the fact that Okposo plays with Tavares and is outscoring Benn. The post made it seem like Tavares plays with nothing but scrubs and Seguin plays with superstars when that's not really the case at all.

In previous threads, discussing the same issue, Flyers fans have been extremely rude and insulting.

In this thread, in the past couple of pages, Flyers fans have been extremely rude and insulting.

Can you really not see why Isles fans would say something like "here we go again with the Tavares vs. Giroux debate..."?

 

[Rehabguy]

I don't think anyone is saying he sucks....he just has yet to CEMENT himself into the top 10 like others have.

Much like Seguin...Tavares has to prove he is a top guy for more than 1 year. It's hard to say someone is "still" a top 10 forward when they have finished top 15 in scoring 1 time....and was 7th.

Honestly...is it wrong to say prove it for a season....then prove again?

That's what is happening to Seguin...it should happen for Tavares too.

And agin...I do think JT will get there...possibly top 5. But show it. He has all the talent to do it and the team around him to do it.

You are quite the dreamer. Eh?

The reality is Tavares has cemented himself at the top of just about every major publication that ranks young players today. He's always overshadowed Giroux and that feeling of inferiority is just eating up a few Flyers fans.

It's up to every other young player who dreams to be in his position to prove they belong anywhere beside him. Analyze, synthesize, rationalize, hypothesize, and homerize as much as you want about Giroux or any other wannabe, but I don't seriously think he has a shot this year. Not when:

1. Tavares surpasses him in the scoring lists.
2. Tavares is battling hard deep in the playoffs, while Giroux is polishing his golf clubs.

And why do a few of you guys insist on arguing with Islanders fans, when you spent the entire summer trying to insist that the Flyers were the far better franchise both now and into the future. These are the same guys arguing here. You were flat out wrong then. What makes you think you are right now?

Time to cut your losses and just go away.

 

[Poulin 0n My St1ck]

The post completely ignored the fact that Okposo plays with Tavares and is outscoring Benn. The post made it seem like Tavares plays with nothing but scrubs and Seguin plays with superstars when that's not really the case at all.

Without dragging myself into this pissing match, I just want to mention that Okposo has been garbage for the past month. He's constantly turning the puck over and has looked lost out on the ice. Benn, on the other hand, is a great two-way player who has a bigger impact on the game than the 2014-15 version of Kyle Okposo. I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe Kyle has quite a few secondary assists playing with JT.

If anything, I'd like to see Strome put on JT's wing for a few shifts and have KO back with Nielsen where he's had success in the past.

 

[Protest]

Really? This whole thread is filled with Flyers fans and fans of other teams who bring up fancy stats to try to prove Tavares is overrated and you expect Islander fans to not react?

That makes it seem like you're doing this:

No one has called Tavares a bad player, and the fact that people don't think he is a top 10 player in the league based off of his non top 10 production is not "using fancy stats," it's reality. It'd be different if he was a more complete player like Getzlaf or Giroux, but he isn't. He hasn't put up the points consistently, and he doesn't provide enough elsewhere to make up for it.

What about this?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1773353&highlight=giroux+tavares

And this?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1768935

And you wonder why Islander fans would get defensive after seeing some of the garbage posted in those threads? It's one thing to argue about who the better player is. It's another to mock and throw insults around.

I could say the same thing. Seriously read the post back a bit that I quoted and bolded. That was nothing but fabricated garbage that really didn't even dignify a response.

Well I guess the silver lining of watching another team lift the Cup as your Flyers skate off the ice is you can act cocky in these threads.

As opposed to being cocky, when you're team misses the playoffs 70% of the time in a sport where half the league goes to the playoffs? More precisely though it was using team success to make a point when the team hasn't had any success.

 

[RMimagery]

I posted this last week some time and it was completely ignored, I'll just leave this here for all the people who are claiming it's Flyers fans that always start the Giroux/Tavares debate.


To be fair, aside from top 10 lists which included Giroux, the first time Giroux was brought up was TrustyPatches who is certainly not a Flyers fan. After that it was Islander fans who repeatedly brought Giroux into the conversation.

Let's run down all of the posts BEFORE a Flyers fan chimed in and see who was really antagonizing this Tavares vs. Giroux debate that apparently Islanders fans don't care about but Flyers fans run to all of their threads to start.
- After that first post by a non-Flyers fan it was islesfan3991 who responded to that saying that the Giroux vs Tavares debate has started.
- StrongIslanders90 then came back with a sarcastic comment saying "If Giroux played with mumps he'd still be better than Tavares."
- RMimagery(an Islanders fan) then said "Anyone remember willclaudegirouxeverscoreagoal.com".
- Pure Slaughter Value(an Islanders fan) then took a shot by saying "It could be argued that Giroux, Hall, Sequin, etc are all better players. That's fine for their fans. They can celebrate that as they also study all the prospects that will be available in the lottery."
- Armyjoe(a Neutral fan) then said "Giroux is top 7 in scoring, points are all that matter and tavares is better than giroux AINEC so that means he`s easily a top 10 forward."
- Then finally at post #149 of this thread AtlasRust(a Flyers fan it appears) responded to the above guy saying "You realize Tavares has never outscored Giroux right?" which is the first time a Flyers fan entered this discussion and compared the two of them.

So let's not act like Flyers fans sit around waiting for these threads to start just so they can throw Giroux's name around. In fact, as you can see it was Isles fans who antagonized and threw around sarcastic comments within the first 2 hours of this thread being started.


Maybe you don't but that doesn't mean no other Isles fans do. See above, this is a thread about Tavares and multiple Isles fans felt the need to bring up and "throw mud" at Giroux without any instigation by even a single Flyers fan.

Wow, talk about taking things out of context. Why not show the full quote what I really said...

"JT is coming off a serious injury and is definitely a bit off for him. He'll be fine. Anyone remember willclaudegirouxeverscoreagoal.com or similar last year? Claude was coming off an injury and finished very strong."

I actually defended Claude and recognized how he bounced back from injury and how people over react and not see the big picture.

John has 6 goals in his last 8 games and with his sub par start (for him - off the injury), he's sitting just a few points from a ppg, which he should hit soon enough.

This thread is so beyond off the rails it's comical.

I'm done here but leaving you with this, especially for all the "Still? When was he ever top 10?" posters -

http://www.tsn.ca/crosby-tops-tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-players-1.94060

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/top-50-players-in-the-nhl-1-10/

I'll take the writers of TSN and THN over other fans opinions.

 

[islesfan3913]

go read StoneHands post again, which sums this whole thread up. Islanders fans were whining about Giroux in this thread long BEFORE any Flyers fan said anything about Tavares.

You mean the post I completely disproved? Maybe you should do your own work instead of having other people create your arguments for you.

You're completely missing the point. All the Islander fans in here said that this whole debate was started in this thread by Flyers fans. I know the first guy isn't an Islanders fan but he's also not a Flyers fan. my point is, it was started and then continues by Islander fans until Flyers fans finally chimed in at post 149 of this thread so don't act like Flyers fans saw a Tavares thread an ran in to derail it. Giroux's name was brought up multiple times before Flyers fans ever responded, regardless of whether you say the poster is a good one, or it could have been worded differently, that doesn't matter.

This entire debate goes back to previous threads . This one was started briefly after a heated argument occurred in the poll section where Flyers fans were mocking the Islanders for a good portion of the thread. We're not just talking about this thread. This ridiculous debate has been going on for a while now and every time it seems Tavares is the one who gets the short end of the stick and everyone goes out of their way to prove he's overrated.

Again, you're missing the point. The point I was making is that the post specifically mentioned that Tavares doesn't have a good left winger and went on to talk about how Seguin plays with Benn. The post completely ignored the fact that Okposo plays with Tavares and is outscoring Benn. The post made it seem like Tavares plays with nothing but scrubs and Seguin plays with superstars when that's not really the case at all.

I'm not missing the point at all. Okposo benefits more from playing with Tavares than Benn does from Seguin. I believe Seguin benefits from playing with Benn.

I'm really just saying that I think Seguin benefits from playing with his winger (who is better than Okposo) more than Tavares benefits from his.

 

[Rehabguy]

This is actually really funny. You just don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Giroux's been taking over games longer than Tavares has.

Remember when Giroux almost single handedly beat the Penguins in the playoffs? How did Tavares do against the same team a year later?



How about a Cup Finals OT winner?



How about picking a pass in the D zone and scoring an OT winner?



How about a last second OT winner against Chicago?


.

Yes those videos are nice, but comparing what a player like Giroux accomplishes over the course of a career to what Tavares accomplishes in the course of week is a bit disingenuous.

 

[islesfan3913]

That makes it seem like you're doing this:

No one has called Tavares a bad player, and the fact that people don't think he is a top 10 player in the league based off of his non top 10 production is not "using fancy stats," it's reality. It'd be different if he was a more complete player like Getzlaf or Giroux, but he isn't. He hasn't put up the points consistently, and he doesn't provide enough elsewhere to make up for it.



I could say the same thing. Seriously read the post back a bit that I quoted and bolded. That was nothing but fabricated garbage that really didn't even dignify a response.




As opposed to being cocky, when you're team misses the playoffs 70% of the time in a sport where half the league goes to the playoffs? More precisely though it was using team success to make a point when the team hasn't had any success.

The only reason why Islander fans are getting defensive and maybe even aggressive is because this has gone on multiple times before and we're expected to take it every time. It's getting to be ridiculous. We had to just sit back and watch other fans mock us and our team because every time we say something we get put down and insults are thrown our way. Both those threads show that.

Wow, talk about taking things out of context. Why not show the full quote what I really said...

"JT is coming off a serious injury and is definitely a bit off for him. He'll be fine. Anyone remember willclaudegirouxeverscoreagoal.com or similar last year? Claude was coming off an injury and finished very strong."

I actually defended Claude and recognized how he bounced back from injury and how people over react and not see the big picture.

John has 6 goals in his last 8 games and with his sub par start (for him - off the injury), he's sitting just a few points from a ppg, which he should hit soon enough.

This thread is so beyond off the rails it's comical.

I'm done here but leaving you with this, especially for all the "Still? When was he ever top 10?" posters -

http://www.tsn.ca/crosby-tops-tsn-hockey-s-top-50-nhl-players-1.94060

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/top-50-players-in-the-nhl-1-10/

I'll take the writers of TSN and THN over other fans opinions.

Wow. I can't believe he actually changed the post

 

[StoneHands]

In previous threads, discussing the same issue, Flyers fans have been extremely rude and insulting.

In this thread, in the past couple of pages, Flyers fans have been extremely rude and insulting.

Can you really not see why Isles fans would say something like "here we go again with the Tavares vs. Giroux debate..."?

We're not in another thread, we're in this one where Isles fans have been equally insulting. It all comes down to, don't throw the first punch if you don't want to get your ass kicked and that's exactly what happened here. Islander fans threw little jabs at Giroux for pages and pages of this thread until Flyers fans got tired of it and came in with actual facts and statistics. Then it turned into the big bad Flyers fans are picking on their guy.

 

[CodeE]

As opposed to being cocky, when you're team misses the playoffs 70% of the time in a sport where half the league goes to the playoffs? More precisely though it was using team success to make a point when the team hasn't had any success.

Since last winning the Stanley Cup, the Islanders have made the playoffs 13 times, and missed it 17 times. If they make it this year, that'll be 14-17.

So where exactly are you getting this 70% number from? Lemme guess, cherry-picking stats again to strengthen your argument. "I only used these specific years" - gotta love the crutches Flyers fans use to prove their points.

Feel free to continue to bask in the memories of cheering for an above-average team who hasn't won the Cup in 4 decades. If my team had Umberger, Lecavalier, and A-Mac all on albatross contracts combined with one of the 10 worst prospect pools in the league, I'd spend my days remembering the past as well.

Where have you gone, Eric Lindros? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you. Woo woo woo.

 

[islesfan3913]

We're not in another thread, we're in this one where Isles fans have been equally insulting. It all comes down to, don't throw the first punch if you don't want to get your ass kicked and that's exactly what happened here. Islander fans threw little jabs at Giroux for pages and pages of this thread until Flyers fans got tired of it and came in with actual facts and statistics. Then it turned into the big bad Flyers fans are picking on their guy.

Oh the irony.

This debate is a direct result of other threads where Flyers fans were the ones to throw the first punches. When you mock and insult people, they're going to react.

 

[HOLDITHERE*]

You are quite the dreamer. Eh?

The reality is Tavares has cemented himself at the top of just about every major publication that ranks young players today. He's always overshadowed Giroux and that feeling of inferiority is just eating up a few Flyers fans.

It's up to every other young player who dreams to be in his position to prove they belong anywhere beside him. Analyze, synthesize, rationalize, hypothesize, and homerize as much as you want about Giroux or any other wannabe, but I don't seriously think he has a shot this year. Not when:

1. Tavares surpasses him in the scoring lists.
2. Tavares is battling hard deep in the playoffs, while Giroux is polishing his golf clubs.

And why do a few of you guys insist on arguing with Islanders fans, when you spent the entire summer trying to insist that the Flyers were the far better franchise both now and into the future. These are the same guys arguing here. You were flat out wrong then. What makes you think you are right now?

Time to cut your losses and just go away.

WHEN HAS THIS EVER HAPPENED?

Can we seriously start banning users for posting blatant ********?

 

[Rehabguy]

We're not in another thread, we're in this one where Isles fans have been equally insulting. It all comes down to, don't throw the first punch if you don't want to get your ass kicked and that's exactly what happened here. Islander fans threw little jabs at Giroux for pages and pages of this thread until Flyers fans got tired of it and came in with actual facts and statistics. Then it turned into the big bad Flyers fans are picking on their guy.

You can't be serious.

 

[StoneHands]

Oh the irony.

This debate is a direct result of other threads where Flyers fans were the ones to throw the first punches. When you mock and insult people, they're going to react.

Which is exactly what happened in this thread. Islanders fans start throwing jabs and Flyers fans throw knockout punches in the form of stats.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

It is weird that Giroux is seemingly the overall better hockey player but is lower on a lot of hockey journalism sites. I agree that Giroux is a better hockey player (but I don't think the difference is what Flyers fans are making it out to be).

 

[CodeE]

Which is exactly what happened in this thread. Islanders fans start throwing jabs and Flyers fans throw knockout punches in the form of stats.

To me, there's really only one stat that I would consider a "knockout punch":

Flyers: 16-19-7: 39 points
Islanders: 28-13-1: 57 points

 

[Protest]

Since last winning the Stanley Cup, the Islanders have made the playoffs 13 times, and missed it 17 times. If they make it this year, that'll be 14-17.

So where exactly are you getting this 70% number from? Lemme guess, cherry-picking stats again to strengthen your argument. "I only used these specific years" - gotta love the crutches Flyers fans use to prove their points.

Feel free to continue to bask in the memories of cheering for an above-average team who hasn't won the Cup in 4 decades. If my team had Umberger, Lecavalier, and A-Mac all on albatross contracts combined with one of the 10 worst prospect pools in the league, I'd spend my days remembering the past as well.

Where have you gone, Eric Lindros? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you. Woo woo woo.

I'm sorry I "cherry picked" the last 20 years. My apologies for only including the past two decades. I'm sorry I used such a narrow sample size.

Listen dude, your team isn't Detroit, or Chicago, or LA, or Boston. You don't get to talk trash when you're team has been largely irrelevant to the rest of the hockey world for the past 20 years. You root for a team that has sucked for the better part of 2 decades, so you don't get to talk ****. You're like a dude that just got knocked out in a fight and says "you want some more" as the other guy is walking away. It makes you look like a fool.

Imagine if the Oilers were in first place in their division by 1 point next year halfway through the season, and their fans started to talk **** on other teams for sucking....Yea that's what's happening here.

 

[Xamar*]

They're both pretty even

 

[Xamar*]

Lol Flyers fans vs Islanders fan this thread is epic

 

[CodeE]

I'm sorry I "cherry picked" the last 20 years. My apologies for only including the past two decades. I'm sorry I used such a narrow sample size.

Listen dude, your team isn't Detroit, or Chicago, or LA, or Boston. You don't get to talk trash when you're team has been largely irrelevant to the rest of the hockey world for the past 20 years. You root for a team that has sucked for the better part of 2 decades, so you don't get to talk ****. You're like a dude that just got knocked out in a fight and says "you want some more" as the other guy is walking away. It makes you look like a fool.

Imagine if the Oilers were in first place in their division by 1 point next year halfway through the season, and their fans started to talk **** on other teams for sucking....Yea that's what's happening here.

Bad analogy.

We're the guy who gets knocked out in a fight, spends years training MMA and hitting the gym daily, then emerge looking like Brock Lesnar and kick the ever-loving crap out of whoever messed with us before.

You're like the dude who takes that beating and goes "Who cares that my nose is broken? Remember when I beat you up in 2008?"

 

[TurdFerguson]

How about this:

First one to win a cup or a Hart wins. Until then, they are either both good, or they're both failures and should be ashamed of themselves.