Is John Marino for real?

[Empoleon8771]

Emp, sometimes you are out of line because, if you don't think they can't improve upon guys who don't fill the positions actual job description and just because they got some nice production actually playing more than one position, "you are setting the bar way too low."

The fallacy here is assuming that guys like Pettersson and McCann don't "fill the positions actual job description" for a top-4 D and 3C, respectively. Again, that's you having unrealistic expectations for these roles.

If you want a 3C who's consistent, good at faceoffs, good defensively, kills penalties and can put up good point totals, you want a top-6 center as a 3C. That is the definition of an unreasonable expectation. Literally not even Jordan Staal hit all of those, because he stunk at faceoffs with the Penguins.

 

[Peat]

At this juncture him hitting the “rookie wall” would be crippling for the blueline imo. I know that’s a bit dramatic but I think it’s true.

This team withstood losing Letang, Dumo and Maatta all at the same time last year. If they can handle that, they can handle Marino hitting the wall...

... although notice I said can, not will.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "downright ridiculous expectations". If you think McCann somehow hasn't proven he's a consistent 3C and is more than good enough for what the Penguins need in the 3C spot, you have unreasonable expectations. No, the expectation isn't to "fill each important role with the best you can". That is absolutely unreasonable and it leads to the idea that Pettersson somehow shouldn't be in the top-4 D, McCann can't be the 3C or other ridiculous stuff.

The expectation should be to have good players in every spot, while not having any glaring flaws on the roster. McCann in the 3C spot is 100% good. It doesn't matter if Pageau could be better in the spot, because McCann is already good enough for that spot. Same thing with Pettersson on the 2nd pair.

Tbf, doubting a guy who's had maybe 40 games in the position max for us as a C, most of them as a 2C and not as a 3C (and we've seen that doesn't always translate), and most of the 3C ones not ending well, is pretty reasonable. The sample size is small. The possibility of us cursing getting taken in by one hot run at the end of the year is still real.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tbf, doubting a guy who's had maybe 40 games in the position max for us as a C, most of them as a 2C and not as a 3C (and we've seen that doesn't always translate), and most of the 3C ones not ending well, is pretty reasonable. The sample size is small. The possibility of us cursing getting taken in by one hot run at the end of the year is still real.

That means there is uncertainty around whether it's sustainable. That doesn't make it justified to doubt his ability to play the role. Doubting McCann can be the 3C for the Penguins is basically the same as doubting that Marino can be a top-4 D for the Penguins. Having concerns over regression or sustainability is not the same as having doubts he can play the position.

 

[Peat]

That means there is uncertainty around whether it's sustainable. That doesn't make it justified to doubt his ability to play the role. Doubting McCann can play center is basically the same as doubting that Marino can be a top-4 D for the Penguins. Having concerns over regression or sustainability is not the same as having doubts he can play the position.

Centre yes. 3C with Sid and Geno getting the lion's share of the good opportunities? I haven't seen that yet.

Although, tbf, fair point other than that.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

This team withstood losing Letang, Dumo and Maatta all at the same time last year. If they can handle that, they can handle Marino hitting the wall...

... although notice I said can, not will.

Well... yes but it was short-lived and last year wasn’t good even at full health. I kinda mean “crippling” in the sense that we’d turn into last year’s D again, which was a mess.

(Fingers crossed, knocks on wood) but if I had to make a prediction I don’t think he’ll hit a “wall”. I think that his game is simple enough for him to play it consistently. If anything happens to him I think he won’t put up a point for like 10 games or something.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Centre yes. 3C with Sid and Geno getting the lion's share of the good opportunities? I haven't seen that yet.

Although, tbf, fair point other than that.

That's fair, but that's also just uncertainty because the Penguins haven't been healthy with McCann at center yet. I don't think that the Penguins need to worry about their 3C until McCann shows he can't be the 3C, I don't think it's warranted to doubt he can handle the 3C role before he has shown he can't. He has done exceptionally well at center this year, and has thrived in many areas that you want your 3C to be good in, so declaring that he "doesn't fit the position of what they need out of their 3C" just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's the same way as someone suggesting they can't afford to trade forward depth because their young guys are unproven in the playoffs to me. Until their play starts becoming problematic, I don't know why you have to preemptively prepare for them not working.

 

[Gurglesons]

Centre yes. 3C with Sid and Geno getting the lion's share of the good opportunities? I haven't seen that yet.

Although, tbf, fair point other than that.

Question is do you use Sid’s line like that? That’s why I like the idea of a Simon - Sid - Frolik defensive possession unit with the Bleuger line taking the lion share of the dzone starts.

 

[Turin]

Some people on here have downright ridiculous expectations for how good players should be in certain roles. Whether it be that they need an "elite 3C" or how Pettersson/Schultz shouldn't be a top-4 D or how the Penguins forward depth isn't terrific, it seems like a ton of people here have ridiculous expectations where every position has to have an "elite" player.

Yup. Pettersson is a guy who can go out there, handle 17-20 minutes, not hurt you and fits the system well, and give you typical production from a dman who isn’t playing on the PP.

But then you remember that Jordan Staal was the teams 3C and a ton of people still complained about his performance there somehow.

 

[EightyOne]

The Pens really just need another REAL winger.

A 456 dman is ok but not a big deal.

Right now.

 

[Peat]

That's fair, but that's also just uncertainty because the Penguins haven't been healthy with McCann at center yet. I don't think that the Penguins need to worry about their 3C until McCann shows he can't be the 3C, I don't think it's warranted to doubt he can handle the 3C role before he has shown he can't. He has done exceptionally well at center this year, and has thrived in many areas that you want your 3C to be good in, so declaring that he "doesn't fit the position of what they need out of their 3C" just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's the same way as someone suggesting they can't afford to trade forward depth because their young guys are unproven in the playoffs to me. Until their play starts becoming problematic, I don't know why you have to preemptively prepare for them not working.

He didn't handle it at all well last year. Maybe I'm being overly critical, but I can't help but remember that when considering McCann's future here.

I also think that while I'm all for backing players until they prove not to, I always love having as much insurance as sensibly possible and with some guys, you can kinda see the fall coming. Not necessarily putting McCann in there, despite my scepticism about him, but not necessarily arguing with someone who does.

Question is do you use Sid’s line like that? That’s why I like the idea of a Simon - Sid - Frolik defensive possession unit with the Bleuger line taking the lion share of the dzone starts.

I just can't bring myself to imagine not trying to maximise Sid's offensive potential for all its worth. Obviously things develop in weird ways and I'm for taking the path of least resistance, but for me Geno and Sid get the lion's share of the good stuff, Blueger gets to shovel the shit, and McCann gets whatever's left.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The fallacy here is assuming that guys like Pettersson and McCann don't "fill the positions actual job description" for a top-4 D and 3C, respectively. Again, that's you having unrealistic expectations for these roles.

If you want a 3C who's consistent, good at faceoffs, good defensively, kills penalties and can put up good point totals, you want a top-6 center as a 3C. That is the definition of an unreasonable expectation. Literally not even Jordan Staal hit all of those, because he stunk at faceoffs with the Penguins.

I don't know what you are talking about with Pettersson? I literally haven't said one word about him.

But back to McCann, the guy hasn't even been consistently in the 3C role to even be a judge on it. With the injuries and bouncing from wing to center, and from top six wing to top 2C I really don't know how you even get your assumptions here.

But when he does settle into the 3C full-time, there is nothing to suggest things will be better. He'll lose the offensive zone starts a bit, will be counted on for defensive zone starts more and more in general. I seriously doubt you have been looking beyond just his play in general.

The 3c role is not what he's been doing long enough.

 

[buud]

just picked him up in my hockey pool, a pool that has 11 categories, so it's somewhat encompassing. these are stats from the pool, based on average.

- season - 243rd overall.
- last month - 113th overall.
last 14 days (6 games) - 72nd overall.
last week - 57th overall.

trending in the right direction, for sure. and to show this significant progress, at 22, is pretty impressive. especially for a defenceman. his ice time has ramped up to over 20 min/game, over the past 10 games. i haven't watched every Pitt game, but i've caught a few, and he plays very mature, for his age.

ya, stats aren't the end-all, be-all, but that is pretty telling, and on a night when only 6 teams are playing, he certainly could have been the best D that night. he's really good. nuff said.

small sample size, yada yada yada

he's good.

 

[Tender Rip]

Honestly peeps.... if this is Malkin as 1C, and you run with that and the team we have...

Guentzel Malkin Rust
McCann Crosby Kahun

With how McCann and Kahun are playing that should be something of a top 6.

ZAR Blueger Tanev - I know, I know.... ZAR is hated. But the defensive performance of that line, against tough comp. and with zone starts as bad as anything we ever gave Cullen... it stays.

Chucky Lafferty Horny
Simon Bjugstad Noesen

I mean, damn.

1: With that kind of depth it must be possible to swing a quantity for quality trade that improves the starting lineup.
2: I am not in hurry to get anything done before we see how the top 6 is configured with Sid back.

 

[spcastlemagic]

I don't know what this thread is about anymore but the answer is yes - Marino has the juice. He's incredibly solid defensively and the only things left to find out are does he have the endurance to do it for 82+ games and how much offense can he bring to the table.

 

[Andy99]

thanks for jinxing the kid, ESPN....

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id...-defenseman-talking-about?device=featurephone

 

[Tom Hanks]

thanks for jinxing the kid, ESPN....

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id...-defenseman-talking-about?device=featurephone

It’s hockey on ESPN so no one will see it.

 

[chethejet]

Sully has said his skating is what they really like. He has the wheels to be a top 4 D man and his shot is good enough as well. As he matures and gains needed size and strength Pens have their guy going forward.

 

[KIRK]

Sully has said his skating is what they really like. He has the wheels to be a top 4 D man and his shot is good enough as well. As he matures and gains needed size and strength Pens have their guy going forward.

It's not just his skating. It's that he skates to pressure and doesn't crap his pants with the puck in his own zone or in transition when someone gets within 10 feet of him.

As @Mr Jiggyfly and @ColePens and umpteen others have said, we've been missing that in a second defenseman since Daley left.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Didn't even get 10 points.

 

[EightyOne]

Didn't even get 10 points.

Eh, how often does the prom king not end up a loser later on?

 

[Gurglesons]

Didn't even get 10 points.

I mean, all of those players deserve the Calder over him tbh.

 

[wej20]

It's not just his skating. It's that he skates to pressure and doesn't crap his pants with the puck in his own zone or in transition when someone gets within 10 feet of him.

As @Mr Jiggyfly and @ColePens and umpteen others have said, we've been missing that in a second defenseman since Daley left.

I'd love to hear from some people who watched him regularly in college, you'd have thought with how good he looks in NHL that he'd dominate that level and put up more than the 0.5 PPG he did at Harvard. Maybe having Fox and Walsh on the team made him play an overly safe game.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I mean, all of those players deserve the Calder over him tbh.

Even those mentioned in the bottom right corner of the picture? Mainly that I was speaking about.

 

[larueskee]

Is he for real? Was Olli Maata the real deal? Was Justin Schultz the best thing for a season? Is Dumo still the hottest d man the Pens have ever had? Is Jack Johnson going to be worth his money for the duration of his contract? I don't know who was responsible for grabbing Marino from Edmonton for a 6th round pick but he is surely going to have a career in the NHL. The other guys I mention may never become what Marino may be. Lets just hope Sully doesn't tire of him.

 

[Richard]

The big thing for me is that we need to give him a rest as the season progresses. As with every young player, specifically dmen, they wear out by playoffs their first NHL campaign.

We need to shelter him and give him less minutes as the season progresses to keep him fresh. Scratch him 2nd night of back to backs...