Is John Marino for real?
- Thread starter Rempe73
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BlindWillyMcHurt
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Flying Dego
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- Apr 30, 2013
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Those Harvard Grads I tell ya...first Craig Adams puts on a clinic for years with us now Marino.
Marino looks amazing, hope he keeps this up when the games get faster in the playoffs. If he handles himself then...jackpot
Tacitus Kilgore
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Wow yea that was a lot of NHL talent on the backend. Marino was 2nd pairing I assume?
Dipsy Doodle
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Understands the geometry of the game extremely well for a young player.
ChaosAgent
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- May 8, 2018
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Watching the Wings play, I can't help but feel fearful of the Penguins downside once Sid/Geno/Kris near the end. Talk about hopelessness.
Seeing Marino and Jake makes me believe that this organization will find a way to establish a new core and avoid 5 years of misery.
Seeing Marino and Jake makes me believe that this organization will find a way to establish a new core and avoid 5 years of misery.
cygnus47
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- Sep 14, 2013
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Given the way the NHL works, it's better to bottom out completely for 2 or 3 years and get a franchise player than to be middling for any period of time. Once Sid and Geno are done, we should absolutely fire sale and just suck for a couple years.
PhilThrillPill
Registered User
Just to summarize and put into a balanced context what other have said and to answer the actual question...
A. Marino is definitely not lucking out
B. He passes the eye test gracefully and his underlying numbers support this completely
C. Seems to have a very well rounded game and makes very few mistakes
D. Due to numerous injuries (Letang, Schultz and Domoulin) at different points of the year, he has been out in multiple tough spots for someone that just made the team and passed with flying colors.
E. He defends very well, skates fast and has a long stick, he is rarely caught out of position.
F. He handles the puck very calmly and make an excellent first pass and his shot is not that bad either. Tough to say if there is more upside to his offensive game cause for some reason Sullivan thinks Petts is a good idea on the PP second unit (?!?!)
In my opinion he is the surprise of the year and exactly what we needed. He is a #2-4 defensemen in the current small sample size.
A. Marino is definitely not lucking out
B. He passes the eye test gracefully and his underlying numbers support this completely
C. Seems to have a very well rounded game and makes very few mistakes
D. Due to numerous injuries (Letang, Schultz and Domoulin) at different points of the year, he has been out in multiple tough spots for someone that just made the team and passed with flying colors.
E. He defends very well, skates fast and has a long stick, he is rarely caught out of position.
F. He handles the puck very calmly and make an excellent first pass and his shot is not that bad either. Tough to say if there is more upside to his offensive game cause for some reason Sullivan thinks Petts is a good idea on the PP second unit (?!?!)
In my opinion he is the surprise of the year and exactly what we needed. He is a #2-4 defensemen in the current small sample size.
ChaosAgent
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Look at a team like Boston. Not exactly loaded with top-5 picks and yet every year they compete. Kucherov was a late 2nd round pick. Letang was a 3rd.
I used to be all about the Tank strategy but now notsomuch. Edmonton and Toronto aren't winning the Cup this year. Outside of Sid & Geno our tank picks were Fleury, Jordan Staal and Whitney. All good players but nothing Earth shattering.
Honour Over Glory
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Marino makes me realize how bland af Pettersson is and how desperate we were for a real defense prospect that we all latched on to anything he did as good. Now that we've seen a good prospect, Marcus is just some jabroni to me.
Boston lucked out between 2014 and 2016 in their top picks...you have to hit on those picks and hit good...Pastrnak and McAvoy...they are top players, not just very good, and they were ready to play early...
ChaosAgent
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I'm just not seeing great success from the tanking teams recently.
Colorado looks good now but they missed the playoffs for 6/7 seasons to do it, blech. I don't even want to go through what Edmonton had to either although I look forward to seeing McDavid challenge 2000 points for his career.
I think it's a cultural thing. For the tanking teams the top-5 picks get introduced into a losing culture and too much pressure is put upon them. Build a winning culture and perhaps a few of your late 1st rounders or mid-round picks hits big. A POJ, a Poulin, an Addison, a Jake, a Marino, a Jarry/Murray. Or you can wade out into free agency if you're willing to pay the price and can lure the guy. Panarin, for instance, was absolutely worth it. Then again, Erik Karlsson may not be. We'll see on Hall.
yeah, I mean we’ll see if more teams like the Blues without top end talent win the Cups...but so far this past decade, the teams that got top end players high in the draft to anchor their teams around—Pens, Hawks, LAK, Caps— are the main ones who’ve won Cups...
Dipsy Doodle
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Pettersson's 22 years old and already capable of giving us 19 good minutes a night. He's not Marino, but he's absolutely a quality young defenseman, if a more complementary top 4 type.
ChaosAgent
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That's tanking that happened 10-15 years ago. Like initially post-lockout. Who has been all that successful doing it since? You could maybe argue Tampa with Stamkos/Hedman but Stamkos fell pretty clearly off of the "franchise player" wagon onto the "ok at even strength and build his legacy on the powerplay" wagon a while ago.
Also the Kings drafted 13-11-11-11-4-2 during their "tank." And #4 was Thomas Hickey - not exactly a franchise player. 2 was obviously Doughty. I wouldn't call that a full Edmonton or Colorado or early aughts Penguins tank.
Edit: back to the topic at hand. John Marino is a surefire top-4 D with #1D upside and he didn't need to be tanked for.
Honour Over Glory
Fire Sully
- Jan 30, 2012
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No, if he's our 3rd pairing LD, we're in a good spot. He shouldn't be on the 2nd pairing.
Tender Rip
Wears long pants
You still look at cup winning teams and uniformly see the presence of top picks there. Even St.Louis had top pick Pietrangelo (and Terasenko, Schwartz, Peron, Bouwmeester that I can think of) as 1st rounders drafted by St. Louis plus of course they got O'Reilly with picks and prospects. Even Boston back when had Seguin who was acquired for their own high pick Kessel, and big contributors such as Chara and Horton were also top picks albeit on other teams.
Immediately after Sid and Geno, we likely don't have any top half 1st round picks on the roster at all. Imagining that one can just build to success from there.... seems hard to square with post-cap realities. Detroit is about the only team that won without high picks and that's because they already had that team before the cap (and that Swedish scout making a mockery of everyone else with Lidstrom, Datsuyuk, Zetterberg, Homstrom, Franzen etc.... none of these drafted higher than the third round... nuts).
Honour Over Glory
Fire Sully
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I agree, but one nit-pick, Bouwmeester was a Panthers top pick, he was then signed by the Flames (traded as an RFA I think) where he was underwhelming and the Blues then traded for him.
But there are so many teams that have tanked and still found ways to be in the playoffs after it and what not. Flyers, Capitals, Bruins, Blues, etc. Senators did it so much, the league had to change the lottery draft, the Oilers did it for basically a decade.
New Jersey has done it a few times to get their middle sorted out and the Red Wings are currently doing it in the most disgusting way possible and no one is calling them on it. But man, people sure love to point at the Pens.
Tender Rip
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Honour Over Glory
Fire Sully
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No worries, I googled it just now and holy crap, the guys Bouwmeester was traded for, such crap...lol. I wish you could get top 3 pairing defensemen for that kind of trash these days.
Emile Poirer? Lmao...oh Flames.
Turin
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JTG
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Sid and Geno's downside aren't what you fear. You fear when they retire.
Dipsy Doodle
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I don't see any reason, eye-test or analytics-wise, why he doesn't qualify as a solid complementary 2nd pair defenseman right now, but YMMV.
Expecting a top 4 with a Dumo on each pair isn't really realistic.
Is this a failure of the strategy or the implementation though?
I'd agree that tanking is hardly a safe strategy and is often taking longer to go through than people want to sit through.
But I'd also argue that there's no cups to be won without a bona fide 1C and that it's very hard - although not impossible - to find those players without top 10 picks.
Just because a coterie of the teams with the best cores have dominated the NHL for a decade and shut out later tankers doesn't necessarily invalidate the strategy imo - rather, the fact that most of this coterie got there on the back of high picks would suggest its still the better route. And I suspect that when teams like ourselves, Washington, and so on are dethroned, teams like Colorado will finally take their place.
Although I think the main thing that comes out of this is don't pick fools for GMs.
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