Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[Bounces R Way]

Is he the best Skater? I would say definitely yes. Hasek/Jagr is kind of a hard comparison, would probably go with the Dominator just because his value to his respective teams was basically unmatched over that time period.

 

[Cynick]

Although I know a lot of people rate greatness in different ways, here's a list, JMO:

1) Evgeni Malkin
2) Tim Thomas
3) Dominik Hasek
4) Sergei Fedorov
5) Pavel Datsyuk
6) Alex Ovechkin
7) Jaromir Jagr
8) Peter Forsberg
9) Niklas Lidstrom
10) Zdeno Chara

Now if Russia isn't Europe, I suppose half that list gets taken off.

So, very talented HOF-bound Russian forward with a Hart to his name beats out American goalie who then tops six-time Vezina and three-time Hart winning goalie?

If you remove Thomas and Chara – who either aren't eligible or deserving to be on that list – I honestly can't tell if the top three are any better than the bottom three.

 

[Phil68]

Sorry I cannot put Ovi or even Lidstrom in front of Jagr... Jagr is 2 all time in point... None, no one will reach those points total for a very long time

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Jagr
Lidstrom
Ovechkin
Hasek
Malkin
Forsberg
Federov
Bure
Selanne
Datsyuk

Ovechkin will probably be #1 by the time he retires.

 

[MadLuke]

The greatest forward in the NHL, Lidstrom/Hasek playing other position make the comparison quite hard.

Using a very flawed still in progress metric like:
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Point Shares | Hockey-Reference.com

Jagr would be the european that created more regular season wins during is career, just a little bit above Lidstrom.

Hasek had the best peak season among those 3 (with only Orr, Luongo, Parent, Gretzky, Lemieux above him), but got hurt by not playing a first goaltender position in the NHL until a bit late in is career.

In the playoff too Lidstrom could have the edge, with International to Hasek ? It is close among those 3.

But best and greatest are a bit 2 different thing, being the biggest stars of the league winning Art Ross by large amount, the hair, the spectacular and dominant play style, the goal celebration help make him greater than Lidstrom.

 

[Your old Jofa helmet]

Your career is a fluke if you have no cup according to some people here but they tend to completely ignore it when it's convenient. Lidstrom has 4 cups - more than Hasek, more than Jagr, more than Orr.

And also...
7 Norrises, Conn Smythe, over 1000 points as a defender, triple-gold club, never missed playoffs... He's far above Jagr (and certainly above Bourque)

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Your career is a fluke if you have no cup according to some people here but they tend to completely ignore it when it's convenient. Lidstrom has 4 cups - more than Hasek, more than Jagr, more than Orr.

And also...
7 Norrises, Conn Smythe, over 1000 points as a defender, triple-gold club, never missed playoffs... He's far above Jagr (and certainly above Bourque)

Have to look at the Team as a whole, the wings and avs pretty much had all star teams (when team salaries started getting out of control in the late 90’s). No one player can lead his team to a championship without great support, just ask McDavid; with that being said Hasek was pretty darn close. However Lidstrom’s hardware is pretty damn impressive

 

[Fataldogg]

Hasek ot Jagr with Lidstrom after them.

 

[Son Goku]

Although I know a lot of people rate greatness in different ways, here's a list, JMO:

1) Evgeni Malkin
2) Tim Thomas
3) Dominik Hasek
4) Sergei Fedorov
5) Pavel Datsyuk
6) Alex Ovechkin
7) Jaromir Jagr
8) Peter Forsberg
9) Niklas Lidstrom
10) Zdeno Chara

Now if Russia isn't Europe, I suppose half that list gets taken off.

Russia is Asia technically

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

OV has surpassed Jagr at this point.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Your career is a fluke if you have no cup according to some people here but they tend to completely ignore it when it's convenient. Lidstrom has 4 cups - more than Hasek, more than Jagr, more than Orr.

And also...
7 Norrises, Conn Smythe, over 1000 points as a defender, triple-gold club, never missed playoffs... He's far above Jagr (and certainly above Bourque)

Saying he's "far above Jagr and certainly above Bourque" is a very efficient way to destroy your credibility.

Probably THE longest running and most contentious player-vs-player battle on this site is Bourque vs Lidstrom. They are incredibly, incredibly closely matched and Bourque typically edges out a very narrow win in any given poll or ranking based on his sheer longevity. If you feel Lidstrom is "certainly" the better of the two, then you don't understand the comparison.

 

[psycat]

Harvey, Shore and Bourque say hi.

Harvey is very overrated. Bourque and Lidström is pretty much a toss up, although I would probably rank Bourque ahead. Don't know enough about Shore to make a fair judgement.

Orr >> Bourque >= Lidström >>>> Harvey

As for the topic. Yes Jagr is the greatest European player of all time then it's debatable if Hasek or Lidström is second.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Harvey is very overrated. Bourque and Lidström is pretty much a toss up, although I would probably rank Bourque ahead. Don't know enough about Shore to make a fair judgement.

Orr >> Bourque >= Lidström >>>> Harvey

As for the topic. Yes Jagr is the greatest European player of all time then it's debatable if Hasek or Lidström is second.

Oh boy, you should do some research on Harvey. You’re underrating him badly.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Jagr
Lidstrom
Ovechkin
Hasek
Malkin
Forsberg
Federov
Bure
Selanne
Datsyuk

Ovechkin will probably be #1 by the time he retires.

Mikita?

 

[Albatros]

Russia is Asia technically

Moscow and Pskov aren't Asia by any technicality.

 

[psycat]

Oh boy, you should do some research on Harvey. You’re underrating him badly.

No I am not. A player who played in an all canadian league on a mega stacked team and couldn't produce a single goal in _7_ consecutive playoffs is nowhere close to Bourque or Lidström.

People here love to discredit Lidström because of era(and percieved weakness of the same) or say that he played on a powerhouse team, meanwhile Doug Harvey played vs non professionals only from Canada and on perhaps the most stacked team of all time, yet he didn't produce anywhere close to the same individual results.

As long as people, li

 

[Steve]

I’d take both Hasek and Lidstrom over Jagr.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

No I am not. A player who played in an all canadian league on a mega stacked team and couldn't produce a single goal in _7_ consecutive playoffs is nowhere close to Bourque or Lidström.

Speaking of stacked teams, that’s basically what Lidstrom joined when he started his career. Harvey was the quarterback of that Montreal dynasty team. You also can’t compare stats from the 50s to stats from the 90s. It’s apples to oranges.

Harvey reinvented the defenseman position as the first real good puck moving defenseman while being amazing defensively. Just a dominant force all around while arguably being the best player on his team.

 

[psycat]

Speaking of stacked teams, that’s basically what Lidstrom joined when he started his career. Harvey was the quarterback of that Montreal dynasty team. You also can’t compare stats from the 50s to stats from the 90s. It’s apples to oranges.

Harvey reinvented the defenseman position as the first real good puck moving defenseman while being amazing defensively. Just a dominant force all around while arguably being the best player on his team.

That's exactly what I said? People like to claim that Lidström played on stacked teams in a weak era somehow that doesn't seem to apply to Harvey yet he played in a way weaker era on way more stacked teams. Eddie Shore got same kind of numbers as Harvey decades earlier so I dont buy that he reinvented anything. Simply doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[MadLuke]

OV has surpassed Jagr at this point.

Not sure if that is cleanly so

Top 10
Jagr: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,5,6,8,9
Ov: 1,2,2,3,3,4,6,7,8

OV: 117 points in 121 games
Jagr: 201 points in 208 games (147 in 140 penguins games, 27 in 23 Rangers games than decline after the return in the nhl under 1 ppg)

Jagr did loose the Hart to a prime Lindros, arguably all time best seasons for a goaltender Hasek, he won the Art Ross with some all time great margin in is peak (winning an Art Ross playing only 63 games !!), is puck possession and CORSI were great even for is old self, in is prime I imagine is advanced stats would have been really good with how good he was at keeping the puck.

 

[Atas2000]

Is Jagr the best player from Europe that has ever played the game in the NHL of all time

If you don't consider Russia part of Europe maybe.

 

[Eisen]

Russia is Asia technically

Russia is both. And the population is in Europe.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

That's exactly what I said? People like to claim that Lidström played on stacked teams in a weak era somehow that doesn't seem to apply to Harvey yet he played in a way weaker era on way more stacked teams. Eddie Shore got same kind of numbers as Harvey decades earlier so I dont buy that he reinvented anything. Simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Canadiens Won 5 cups during Harvey’s prime. Coincidence? I think not. The guy won 7 Norris in 8 years.

You’re probably one of posters who think Ovechkin is better than Howe eh?

Looking at numbers without context. You cant be serious..

 

[LongWayDown37]

Hasek. Period.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

It goes without saying that Lidstrom is the 2nd best dman behind Orr.

You probably didn't know about this defenseman named Ray Bourque.