Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

[RandyHolt]

Gonchar is doing great in Ottawa.

Ah i can still see that fans views of offensive defensemen vary widely.

 

[BTCG]

Absolutely, why would a team give up anything of value to pay a guy six million dollars to play horrid defense, not score anywhere near as much as he used to & spend half the season on IR...?

Who is seriously lining up to pick up Mike Green? Guy is the Rick Dipietro of defense.

Bouton has much to say about a player's grooming, especially in relation to how they're playing.

He makes a valid point: when you're struggling, one thing you can do that makes an impression is to clean up your act.... shave off the beard, get a conservative haircut, etc.

You may not play any better, but at least, it shows the team and its fans that you care and are actively working at changing how things are going.

I see AO is employing this method, and good for him.

 

[Atlas]

I remember Gonchar finally losing his temper and cracking a guy against the sideboards. He got a penalty although it was what Stevens used to do 15 times every game. I think it was a playoff game.

Gonchar was one of the best Dmen the Caps ever had. He was durable, he carried the puck up the ice well, he scored consistently, steered the PP. If Gonchar was whooped then you might as well move the franchise because Caps fans will always be idiots. They whooped Murph away, right? *** savages.

 

[BobRouse]

It was a mistake to let Murph and Gonch go. Green is not in their class even when healthy which is never.

If I had a time machine I'd transport you back. Murphy was "whooped" for a couple years prior to the trade. He was a defensive gaffe waiting to happen, rarely shot the puck on the PP and never hit anyone...or so it was widely felt at the time.

Gonchar's play was earning him several unsavory nicknames and not many were sad to see him go. If you think Green's gaffe last night was bad how about the game 6 OT vs the Pens back in 01 I believe? Gonchar was no defensive stalwart by any means.

These players go other places and are suddenly "good".

Some years ago Montreal fans were so fed up with Ribeiro and Ryder that they seemed to be included in pretty much every trade proposal ever made.

This is the whipping boy syndrome alot of fanbases come down with.

Last year it was Semin. This year its Green. When Green moves along then Carlson will be next. Once Carlson is gone it will be Orlov. And it goes on and on...

Its easy for fans to vent frustration and point fingers to a single player as the main cause of the teams troubles.

 

[RandyHolt]

There is something to be said about appearing unkempt and not doing well. It does not add to ones image, unless they do well, and everyone labels them "a character"

You fat, disgusting slob! You're a goddamned disgrace!

 

[BobRouse]

I remember Gonchar finally losing his temper and cracking a guy against the sideboards. He got a penalty although it was what Stevens used to do 15 times every game. I think it was a playoff game.

Gonchar was one of the best Dmen the Caps ever had. He was durable, he carried the puck up the ice well, he scored consistently, steered the PP. If Gonchar was whooped then you might as well move the franchise because Caps fans will always be idiots. They whooped Murph away, right? *** savages.

Its easy to say that now. Back in his last 2 or 3 years here Gonchar was routinely flamed. Just like Murphy. Just like Semin. Just like Green now.

In a few years everyone will look back and say "how did we ever let Semin go?? He was AWESOME here and was one of our best players!!"

 

[Atlas]

Oh yeah, I remember the Gonchar gaffe now. That's what got people whooping. That was a crazy one-time thing like when Backstrom shot it into our own net. That didn't faze me about Gonchar. He was a stud. He probably had a goal and an assist that game. And the ice was probably awful. But even if not you judge a player in essentials.

 

[Atlas]

Delete.

 

[BobRouse]

Oh yeah, I remember the Gonchar gaffe now. That's what got people whooping. That was a crazy one-time thing like when Backstrom shot it into our own net. That didn't faze me about Gonchar. He was a stud. He probably had a goal and an assist that game. And the ice was probably awful. But even if not you judge a player in essentials.

He was being flamed before that series actually and had been for a couple years. He appeared to have come down with Hollywood Hatcher syndrome.

Distance lends perspective. At the time alot of fans HATED Larry Murphy. Now far removed we look back and see that we took for granted what we had.

Its pretty easy to do and hard to avoid this mentality.

The year after that gaffe we got Jagr and Wilson gave Gonchar the "green light" which to Caps fans appeared to mean "you don't have to play any defense whatsoever!"

 

[Atlas]

Gonchar is gone with his Pens Cup ring, Murph is gone with his Pens Cup rings--we get Mike "Pro-rate it!" Green and his wonky groin.

 

[Atlas]

He was being flamed before that series actually and had been for a couple years. He appeared to have come down with Hollywood Hatcher syndrome.

Distance lends perspective. At the time alot of fans HATED Larry Murphy. Now far removed we look back and see that we took for granted what we had.

Its pretty easy to do and hard to avoid this mentality.

The year after that gaffe we got Jagr and Wilson gave Gonchar the "green light" which to Caps fans appeared to mean "you don't have to play any defense whatsoever!"

Murph had one really bad year, I remember. The overall problem is the management. Some teams find ways to get the best out of the Murph's and Gonchar's. Ted and George and Dick Patrick are not the men to do it.

Green might be a success on another team—but it sure doesn't look like it. He is more likely to be retired in 4 years.

 

[RandyHolt]

Kevin Hatcher was also whooped once he stopped fighting as much.

He was the Detroit age 16 boxing champ!

Green may have made and done too much too fast, and raised the expectations bar on himself exponentially, and fans as well. Injuries have been in play, but I wonder if he could use a hockey whisperer. The coaches have to be that guy.

If Murphy had a bad year, lord knows the incessant and nonstop harassment from fans certainly could have had him being a mental wreck.

 

[BobRouse]

Murph had one really bad year, I remember. The overall problem is the management. Some teams find ways to get the best out of the Murph's and Gonchar's. Ted and George and Dick Patrick are not the men to do it.

Green might be a success on another team—but it sure doesn't look like it. He is more likely to be retired in 4 years.

I couldn't agree with you more here.

Its not the individual player (i.e. Semin/Green). Its the fact that GMGM has never showed the accumen to put the proper team together. Poile was always strapped due to Abe so he gets a pass for that in my book.

When did Semin ever play with a true #2 center? With a 500 year old Fedorov? Thats the best GMGM gave him.

When has Green ever been paired with a Jeff Buekeboom type Dman? Remember Calle Jo? Great player but he became great once he was paired with Tinordi as they complimented each other.

Leech had Buekeboom
Calle had Tinordi

Green gets Shaone Morrison or Jeff Schultz. I like Alzner don't get me wrong. But I feel Green needs a better version of Erskine opposite him to get the most out of him.

Semin looks awful good with Staal as another example.

I could go on and on in my rant but you hit the nail on the head here. If Green goes to another team he will be Norris caliber.

Instead of trying to run the Semin's and Green's out of town we should be focusing on putting the proper complimentary pieces around them.

Kevin Hatcher was also whooped once he stopped fighting as much.

He was the Detroit age 16 boxing champ!

.

Hatcher let his offensive prowess get to his head. He stopped playing a determined physical game almost overnight. Hitting, fighting being nasty all gone overnight.

At one point he was big, mean..I mean REALLY MEAN..would go toe to toe with heavyweight goons in addition to bringing the O.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Gonchar is doing great in Ottawa.

He's been terrible before this season....according to the posts I've read from Sens fans.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If I had a time machine I'd transport you back. Murphy was "whooped" for a couple years prior to the trade. He was a defensive gaffe waiting to happen, rarely shot the puck on the PP and never hit anyone...or so it was widely felt at the time.

Gonchar's play was earning him several unsavory nicknames and not many were sad to see him go. If you think Green's gaffe last night was bad how about the game 6 OT vs the Pens back in 01 I believe? Gonchar was no defensive stalwart by any means.

These players go other places and are suddenly "good".

Some years ago Montreal fans were so fed up with Ribeiro and Ryder that they seemed to be included in pretty much every trade proposal ever made.

This is the whipping boy syndrome alot of fanbases come down with.

Last year it was Semin. This year its Green. When Green moves along then Carlson will be next. Once Carlson is gone it will be Orlov. And it goes on and on...

Its easy for fans to vent frustration and point fingers to a single player as the main cause of the teams troubles.

Agree with much of what you wrote, but this isn't fans looking for anyone to blame now that Semin is gone. Green has been taking this criticism for YEARS and it's not done in a vacuum. If you don't think Green deserves some heat (along with some others), I don't know what you're thinking.

 

[BobRouse]

Agree with much of what you wrote, but this isn't fans looking for anyone to blame now that Semin is gone. Green has been taking this criticism for YEARS and it's not done in a vacuum. If you don't think Green deserves some heat (along with some others), I don't know what you're thinking.

I think Green is a damn good hockey player. I also think that he needs a real top 4 physical dman to play opposite him to get the most out of him.

Look at Duncan Keith. Who plays opposite him? Then look at Green's tenure here and who he's been partenered with.

The criticism should be pointed at the front office for not getting the appropriate complimentary piece in place.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Murph had one really bad year, I remember. The overall problem is the management. Some teams find ways to get the best out of the Murph's and Gonchar's. Ted and George and Dick Patrick are not the men to do it.

Green might be a success on another team—but it sure doesn't look like it. He is more likely to be retired in 4 years.

The other teams learned to pair these guys with the right D partner and used them in a way that made them successful. Green needs that same treatment, and probably won't get it until he gets to a franchise that knows what it's doing.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think Green is a damn good hockey player. I also think that he needs a real top 4 physical dman to play opposite him to get the most out of him.

Look at Duncan Keith. Who plays opposite him? Then look at Green's tenure here and who he's been partenered with.

The criticism should be pointed at the front office for not getting the appropriate complimentary piece in place.

See my post above. I'm with you. I think the D partner is without a doubt a huge issue. It's George McPhee....what do you expect? We'll just throw young inexperienced guys out there with no suitable mentors or playing partners and expect them to raise the game of a Jeff Schultz-type player all the while, playing like a true #1 D. Same type of issue with throwing inexperienced goalies into the fire....

It's an organizational fault...

 

[BobRouse]

See my post above. I'm with you. I think the D partner is without a doubt a huge issue. It's George McPhee....what do you expect? We'll just throw young inexperienced guys out there with no suitable mentors or playing partners and expect them to raise the game of a Jeff Schultz-type player all the while, playing like a true #1 D. Same type of issue with throwing inexperienced goalies into the fire....

It's an organizational fault...

Absolutely. Its a disturbing trend.

Its fine to put young players in there but it seems we like to throw them to the wolves.

GMGM sometimes TRIES to get get the appropriate pieces in place like Vet dmen..but the guys he gets are not the right ones. Mironov, Poti, Hamrlik are/were all good hockey players but we needed a guy in the mold of Tinordi and these guys were not that type.

How many 2nd line centers has he tried that failed to pan out? From Nylander, BMo, 500 year old Fedorov, Belanger, forcing Flash/Laich into the role (Zubrus before them) etc

He can't seem to get it right and by spending all his cap money he leaves himself little choice but to plug a young player (MJ for example) into a given role far too soon.

GMing is no easy task thats for sure but it does seem thats the main problem with the Caps

 

[Atlas]

I essentially agree with your last post, BRouse.

Hatcher really did become soft. Hatcher for Tinordi was a great trade for us.

On Green, I think his only chance is as a reclamation project somewhere else. For the Caps, he is supposed to be the legit #1 D that carries the team on his back. Haha! That's not going to happen, but he might be a guy who can get hot for a playoff team as a specialist and help them win a Cup. I doubt it but that could happen,

I doubt Green is tradable at this point, tbh.

 

[BobRouse]

Atlas

I think if we get the right guy opposite him we will see Mike Green take a huge step.

The question is can GMGM get that guy? Does he have the assets? Does he have the gumption? But most of all..does he BELIEVE we need that?

The last question is the one I have little faith in.

Remember after the Caps passed on Pronger the 3rd time (when he was traded to Philly). There was word the (it wasn't GMGM but one of his other high level henchmen) that they basically said they felt Pronger was highly overrated and "not very good."

Imagine a 1st pairing of Pronger and Green in 09-10 or even 08-09.

The problem now is cap space and assets. We need to find a solution to the top 6 forwards (including 2nd line center) first and formost.

Then we need to address the logjam at D if we are to bring in someone else.

 

[Atlas]

Atlas

I think if we get the right guy opposite him we will see Mike Green take a huge step.

The question is can GMGM get that guy? Does he have the assets? Does he have the gumption? But most of all..does he BELIEVE we need that?

The last question is the one I have little faith in.

Remember after the Caps passed on Pronger the 3rd time (when he was traded to Philly). There was word the (it wasn't GMGM but one of his other high level henchmen) that they basically said they felt Pronger was highly overrated and "not very good."

Imagine a 1st pairing of Pronger and Green in 09-10 or even 08-09.

The problem now is cap space and assets. We need to find a solution to the top 6 forwards (including 2nd line center) first and formost.

Then we need to address the logjam at D if we are to bring in someone else.

Yeah—George is timid. He is very much a middle-of-the-road, "how does the hockey world perceive me?" GM. He does not have a vision for team-building. The salary cap system makes it all crazy but that's not an excuse for doing nothing. Fortune favors the bold. George was never bold. The next guy probably won't be either if I know Ted.

We have to disagree about Green. I don't see it. Of course, Pronger-Green might have been tremendous. We'll never know. He was a highly-skilled guy for a couple years but even then he wasn't a star—now he's a spent force.

 

[InjuredChoker]

He's been terrible before this season....according to the posts I've read from Sens fans.

He wasn't awful the first year iirc but last year was bad. Or maybe the other way around.

But this year he's looked good. Another contract year, lol.

 

[RandyHolt]

In the endless quest to find Green a 1LD, I often think of Seidenberg as a candidate George missed out on. More than once.

Man o man, George must have been a little chronic staterbator during the Sarge Plus Fiddy / Norris candidacy run. Wow have they fallen. That copy the Detroit Model - play it clean beat them with goals and goals alone... it all came crashing down to reality real quick. It's like mom walked into the room.

Doesn't anyone ****ing knock anymore?

We some nasty on the blue to try with Green. The only significant run Green got with a real Nasty was Erskine, for about 10 games.

Right in the middle of Green's goal scoring streak IIRC.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Props to Randy for finding a way to get a picture of Phoebe Cates in her finest moment into this thread....