Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

[BobRouse]

Use the $6+mil on a stopgap like Boyle or Markov, both contribute about what Green does and play better D even at their age. You could always explore the trade market as well.

You clearly are thinking of these two players from 4 or 5 years ago.

Boyle is completely shot. He's slow and brutal in his own zone now.

Markov got abused..ABUSED ..in the Rangers series. He is a PP specialist that you cannot rely on at even strength whatsover.

At this stage of their careers they are like Gonchar. Their physical skills have eroded and degraded and watch out if they are in their own zone.

They no longer have the stamina to play big minutes and they don't carry the puck very well at all.

These are not good options at all. They will not be "=" to Green. They will be a clear downgrade making the same money and taking up the same cap space.

Was our D not bad enough for you?

What would Green + our first fetch us? I'm wondering if we could get in the top three pick range or what types of veterans that package would merit.

Thougts?

The minimum I'd pull the trigger on would be a top 6 forward, a top prospect (top 5 within org) and a 1st (most likely a late 1st).

And thats fair based on past trades of such players.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Given that the new GM and coach haven't mentioned him once (that I know of) there's a very good chance. I've got to think they're taking offers at the very least.

Who is realistically in the market for an offenseman and capable of eating a $6.1 million cap hit?

Minn (I think they're better off investing in D than Vanek despite the narrative)
NJ
SJ
Car
Det
EDM

Anyone else?

 

[Capitlols]

You clearly are thinking of these two players from 4 or 5 years ago.

Boyle is completely shot. He's slow and brutal in his own zone now.

Markov got abused..ABUSED ..in the Rangers series. He is a PP specialist that you cannot rely on at even strength whatsover.

At this stage of their careers they are like Gonchar. Their physical skills have eroded and degraded and watch out if they are in their own zone.

They no longer have the stamina to play big minutes and they don't carry the puck very well at all.

These are not good options at all. They will not be "=" to Green. They will be a clear downgrade making the same money and taking up the same cap space.

Was our D not bad enough for you?

You clearly think Green can be what he was 4-5 years ago? I'd love to hear your analysis of Green this past year.

Those two were on par with Green this past year, at worst.

They don't need to play big minutes, your not going to find that Dman this off-season(or with Green). They'll just be stopgaps and you can trade Green for assets instead of deluding yourself thinking he'll suddenly put it all together after 9 years.

Our D was bad and Green was a big part of it, so let's keep him.

 

[BobRouse]

Who is realistically in the market for an offenseman and capable of eating a $6.1 million cap hit?

Minn (I think they're better off investing in D than Vanek despite the narrative)
NJ
SJ
Car
Det
EDM

Anyone else?

Pretty much every team. The Cap is going up a significant amount first off.

Also they will ship out some salary to us in any type of trade too.

Anaheim
Rangers (they will lose Stralman and Green is the exact PP QB they need)
Calgary
Islanders
etc

There are only a few teams who don't need/want/can't afford a type of player like him. Pittsburgh being one since they have Letang and are one of the teams in a tough cap situation.

 

[BobRouse]

You clearly think Green can be what he was 4-5 years ago? I'd love to hear your analysis of Green this past year.

Those two were on par with Green this past year, at worst.

They don't need to play big minutes, your not going to find that Dman this off-season(or with Green). They'll just be stopgaps and you can trade Green for assets instead of deluding yourself thinking he'll suddenly put it all together after 9 years.

Our D was bad and Green was a big part of it, so let's keep him.

Green this year? He had bad luck as his PDO would suggest. He's was our best possession player as discussed in depth in this thread.

Green played some 22 or 23 minutes a night. If these old washed up guys you are bringing are expected to do that then we will completely collapse this year.

Our D was bad this year yes. So were our forwards. So was EVERYONE. But...to you Green is THE BIG reason why apparently. Despite all advanced metrics pointed to the exact opposite of what you claim.

Oates and Hunter did not want Dmen carrying the puck. That is where Green is better than any dman in the league not named Karlsson.

The guy is 28 years old. For a Dman that is just starting to reach his prime.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

The guy is 28 years old. For a Dman that is just starting to reach his prime.

Absolutely. 31 goals in 68 games the baseline for his upcoming prime.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Use the $6+mil on a stopgap like Boyle or Markov, both contribute about what Green does and play better D even at their age. You could always explore the trade market as well.

So if Green doesn't hold much value and we'd be selling low, what's a realistic expectation for a return? Does that make this team better? Do you honestly think Orlov-Boyle or Orlov-Markov is better than Orlov-Green?

I've said this in another forum but I think it's best said here: Trotz's 1st move has to be figuring out what to do with Orlov and Green. Are they keeping Orlov on the left side and do they think he's ready to be a 2LD? Are they keeping Green and making Orlov the 3RD? Are they trading Green and making Orlov the 2RD and hoping the Green trade or another trade brings a 2LD? I'm very curious to know what the collective vision and plan is for the defensive corps.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

You clearly think Green can be what he was 4-5 years ago? I'd love to hear your analysis of Green this past year.

Those two were on par with Green this past year, at worst.

They don't need to play big minutes, your not going to find that Dman this off-season(or with Green). They'll just be stopgaps and you can trade Green for assets instead of deluding yourself thinking he'll suddenly put it all together after 9 years.

Our D was bad and Green was a big part of it, so let's keep him.

C'mon, man, our whole team was bad. Everyone at even strength outside of Chimmer-X-Ward was bad. I even thought Alzner looked lost this year. Oates and CalleJo were beer league level coaches, straight up. Just awful. The team openly said on record during the "playoff push" that they had no idea how they were supposed to play every night.

You don't think a coach like Trotz can get Green going again?

 

[Langway]

I don't know that Calgary would be interested unless Wideman is getting moved out in the process. In addition, I would think there's a fit for Dallas given their style. Behind Karlsson there's not a whole lot in Ottawa as far as transition play. Half the league (if not more) on paper could use that type of player. The question is whether his contract status and durability concerns dent his value too significantly? When Niskanen is one of the premier UFA defensemen I think teams will have to at least consider getting creative via trade. Given the number of teams looking to shake up their teams and the number of new GMs around the league (a surprising seven once PIT hires someone, incl. BUF/Murray) it should be a busy off-season league-wide.

As far as replacements go I still think Timonen has something left in the tank. The fancystats remain quite strong. Maybe Trotz can make that happen if Hextall waffles.

Trotz could perhaps get the best out of Green but never mentioning the guy is pretty suspicious. You'd think he would be viewed as an opportunity to develop a very skilled, potentially impact offensive-defenseman and yet...crickets.

 

[um]

So if Green doesn't hold much value and we'd be selling low, what's a realistic expectation for a return? Does that make this team better? Do you honestly think Orlov-Boyle or Orlov-Markov is better than Orlov-Green?

I've said this in another forum but I think it's best said here: Trotz's 1st move has to be figuring out what to do with Orlov and Green. Are they keeping Orlov on the left side and do they think he's ready to be a 2LD? Are they keeping Green and making Orlov the 3RD? Are they trading Green and making Orlov the 2RD and hoping the Green trade or another trade brings a 2LD? I'm very curious to know what the collective vision and plan is for the defensive corps.

dont think orlov has done enough to be given a guaranteed top 4 spot. im thinking:

Alzner-Carlson
New D-Green
Schimidt/Erskine/Hillen/cheap New D-Orlov

 

[Capitlols]

Green this year? He had bad luck as his PDO would suggest. He's was our best possession player as discussed in depth in this thread.

Green played some 22 or 23 minutes a night. If these old washed up guys you are bringing are expected to do that then we will completely collapse this year.

Our D was bad this year yes. So were our forwards. So was EVERYONE. But...to you Green is THE BIG reason why apparently. Despite all advanced metrics pointed to the exact opposite of what you claim.

Oates and Hunter did not want Dmen carrying the puck. That is where Green is better than any dman in the league not named Karlsson.

The guy is 28 years old. For a Dman that is just starting to reach his prime.

Bad luck explains Green's past year? Wow.

Boyle was at 21+ minutes and Markov at 25+ minutes per game, they could handle it.

I don't know how anyone can dispute that Green wasn't terrible. He still is lost defensively, brings no physicality, and his offense is not nearly what it used to be(never will). He also took more penalties than Alzner and Carlson combined.

Speaking of washed up that explains Green quite well. Entering your prime is immaterial when you have the extensive injury history and lack of development Green has.

 

[Liberati0n*]

If you trade Green, it's because he's injury-prone (for me the most important), mentally weak, inconsistent, etc. It's not really because of his play. A few particular defensive blunders stand out in people's memories of him last year, but letting those dictate your actual view of his season is pretty foolish. He's a clumsy, awkward dude who tends to **** up in spectacular ways when he does **** up. You could argue that indicates (or has already shown itself in) an inability to rise to the challenge of pressured situations, which in itself is a valid reason to trade him. His play overall was fine though. He was taken off the PP and still produced pretty well, and being one of the few positive possession players is no joke.

Combined, the reasons I listed before amount to him being generally unreliable. That's why you would trade him, and ~now would be the time to do it because of his contract. He does have to be replaced though. They could probably get by with an added #3 and #4/5 and Orlov getting top-4 minutes as Green's actual replacement, but he would need to rise to the occasion and tighten up his defensive-zone play from last year.

 

[Capitlols]

So if Green doesn't hold much value and we'd be selling low, what's a realistic expectation for a return? Does that make this team better? Do you honestly think Orlov-Boyle or Orlov-Markov is better than Orlov-Green?

I've said this in another forum but I think it's best said here: Trotz's 1st move has to be figuring out what to do with Orlov and Green. Are they keeping Orlov on the left side and do they think he's ready to be a 2LD? Are they keeping Green and making Orlov the 3RD? Are they trading Green and making Orlov the 2RD and hoping the Green trade or another trade brings a 2LD? I'm very curious to know what the collective vision and plan is for the defensive corps.

Yes. At the very least they'll provide veteran leadership on the backend, which is something that's been needed for years.

C'mon, man, our whole team was bad. Everyone at even strength outside of Chimmer-X-Ward was bad. I even thought Alzner looked lost this year. Oates and CalleJo were beer league level coaches, straight up. Just awful. The team openly said on record during the "playoff push" that they had no idea how they were supposed to play every night.

You don't think a coach like Trotz can get Green going again?

You think it was just the past year Green has been bad? I literally have seen no defensive development from him since 2010.

Trotz has yet to mention his name in any regard(that I know of). For all we know he may think he's garbage.

 

[txpd]

Not mentioning Green, as opposed to how they have spoken of Laich, is noteworthy. It might just be that he is in the last season of his deal and for numerous reason his status is unstable.

If Trotz and company have decided that Green is not their primary offensive defenseman, they will shop him. Green will not extend with only occasional pp ice time.

Realistic value for Green is what Ribeiro cost McPhee.

Btw. Orlov needs to be skating with a defense first defenseman and not someone like an aging Dan Boyle.

 

[BobRouse]

Bad luck explains Green's past year? Wow.

Boyle was at 21+ minutes and Markov at 25+ minutes per game, they could handle it.

I don't know how anyone can dispute that Green wasn't terrible. He still is lost defensively, brings no physicality, and his offense is not nearly what it used to be(never will). He also took more penalties than Alzner and Carlson combined.

Speaking of washed up that explains Green quite well. Entering your prime is immaterial when you have the extensive injury history and lack of development Green has.

And look where it got them? Markov was completely gassed. 100%. He was skating with concrete blocks on. Boyle was brutal.

NHL is a younger mans game. Its fine having a 35+yo dman on the roster but if you play them in the top 4 they better be the likes of Bourque, Pronger, Lidstrom types.

Funny you mention "extensive injury history" and then say we should sign Markov who missed 2.5 full seasons with brutal knee injuries.

Again..everyone on our team looked bad this year compared to what we expected of them (except Ward/Fehr/Chimera). Thats on Oates and Co.

 

[Capitlols]

And look where it got them? Markov was completely gassed. 100%. He was skating with concrete blocks on. Boyle was brutal.

NHL is a younger mans game. Its fine having a 35+yo dman on the roster but if you play them in the top 4 they better be the likes of Bourque, Pronger, Lidstrom types.

Funny you mention "extensive injury history" and then say we should sign Markov who missed 2.5 full seasons with brutal knee injuries.

Again..everyone on our team looked bad this year compared to what we expected of them (except Ward/Fehr/Chimera). Thats on Oates and Co.

...and Green got us far playing those minutes.

Willie Mitchell says hi.

Markov has missed one game the past two years, Green has missed 25(including 13 in a shortened year.

Sure everyone looked bad, but with Green it's a recurring theme along with other lingering issues.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Btw. Orlov needs to be skating with a defense first defenseman and not someone like an aging Dan Boyle.

Disagree. I think Orlov can develop into a Tyutin like player and I think Trotz can help him get there.

He's got some experience and he's getting to that age where he should be taking the next step. My money says he takes it this year.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Given that the new GM and coach haven't mentioned him once (that I know of) there's a very good chance. I've got to think they're taking offers at the very least.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...141f98-e760-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html

Among his new pieces, Trotz supported goaltender Braden Holtby, who struggled with confidence issues last season. He called defensemen John Carlson, Mike Green, Karl Alzner and Dmitry Orlov “really good people†but said the group needed more consistency around the net.

 

[BiPolar Caps]

If you trade Green, it's because he's injury-prone (for me the most important), mentally weak, inconsistent, etc. It's not really because of his play. A few particular defensive blunders stand out in people's memories of him last year, but letting those dictate your actual view of his season is pretty foolish. He's a clumsy, awkward dude who tends to **** up in spectacular ways when he does **** up. You could argue that indicates (or has already shown itself in) an inability to rise to the challenge of pressured situations, which in itself is a valid reason to trade him. His play overall was fine though. He was taken off the PP and still produced pretty well, and being one of the few positive possession players is no joke.

Combined, the reasons I listed before amount to him being generally unreliable. That's why you would trade him, and ~now would be the time to do it because of his contract. He does have to be replaced though. They could probably get by with an added #3 and #4/5 and Orlov getting top-4 minutes as Green's actual replacement, but he would need to rise to the occasion and tighten up his defensive-zone play from last year.

and this, do you think Scott Stevens ever rode a Vespa

 

[IafrateOvie34]

Disagree. I think Orlov can develop into a Tyutin like player and I think Trotz can help him get there.

He's got some experience and he's getting to that age where he should be taking the next step. My money says he takes it this year.

I also believe this.

 

[OVs Gold Chain*]

If you trade Green, it's because he's injury-prone (for me the most important), mentally weak, inconsistent, etc. It's not really because of his play. A few particular defensive blunders stand out in people's memories of him last year, but letting those dictate your actual view of his season is pretty foolish.

The only reasons you'd trade any
player aside from their play are chemistry and personal reasons.

What stands out to me about Green's play, is his inability to get pucks out of corners and being completely terrified of any incoming forecheck. It's a violent game and high contact sport, and I understand his injuries have scared him into the player he is now, but getting the puck out from deep in your zone is one of your biggest jobs as a defenseman. Green can no longer do that unless the forecheck is late getting to the puck.

Every other dman making 5+ mil per year can.

 

[kmdoom]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...141f98-e760-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html

Among his new pieces, Trotz supported goaltender Braden Holtby, who struggled with confidence issues last season. He called defensemen John Carlson, Mike Green, Karl Alzner and Dmitry Orlov “really good people†but said the group needed more consistency around the net.

Subtle jab at Green's poor net front presence in his own zone. That's the most glaring issue with Green's defensive play, he is terrible at picking up his assignments in front of the crease.

 

[kmdoom]

nevermind

 

[Ajax1995]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...141f98-e760-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html

So from this quote:

"Just trying to figure out who had what and why."

I couldn't stop thinking of:

The Bobs...

 

[txpd]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...141f98-e760-11e3-a86b-362fd5443d19_story.html

Among his new pieces, Trotz supported goaltender Braden Holtby, who struggled with confidence issues last season. He called defensemen John Carlson, Mike Green, Karl Alzner and Dmitry Orlov “really good people†but said the group needed more consistency around the net.

so much for not mentioning his name.