Is history repeating itself with Yzerman/Stamkos?

[haveandare]

The biggest thing everyone has to remember here is that Yzerman is very good at resigning his players to decent cap hits. He has the team buying into exactly that "Being a Team". So a lot of players are willing to take the bridge or a little less to be competitive. His UFA signings, he has some issues there do to overpaying due to the market. When it comes to resigning I don't think its too far fetched to see some of these players take a little less to keep the team together and competitive. I am not talking like millions less, I am talking like a few hundred thousand. In the way of Gourde, if he does as well as he did this season, he would easily be worth 4.5-5 million. But I can see him around 4-4.2. If everyone does that, it all adds up to extra space.

I don't think I've ever seen a team play less like they are bought into "being a team" than this one in this series.

And Yzerman built this supposed juggernaut that got steamrolled by an 8 seed without so much as a struggle. Maybe, just maybe, this team isn't built as perfectly as everyone thought an maybe Yzerman isn't quite the GM genius he's been built into.

Imo, cap space isn't the main issue. The main issue is they have a lot of passengers and guys who aren't built for playoff hockey.

 

[Dekes For Days]

However, out of the stars, hes the only one thats never had a playoff run worthy of his status as a RS player. Stamkos choking goes back long before this year.

I don't see how you came to this conclusion. The stats certainly don't support that.

What in Kucherov, Point, or Vasilevsky's playoff history makes them stand out so much beyond what Stamkos has done? Stamkos' playoff history seems pretty consistent with other similar stars, especially considering the injury difficulties he's had.

Hedman I suppose you can make a case for excusing, especially since he played injured, but he probably single-handedly cost them at least 1 game, and I don't know why he was even playing. Kucherov achieved more than Stamkos ever did this season, and was more disappointing than Stamkos has ever been in the playoffs. Literally invisible aside from his stupid suspension. Point did nothing, and had the exact same stats as Stamkos last year. Vasilevsky was really shaky, and doesn't have the best playoff history.

At least Stamkos hasn't been a negative, which is more than I can say for some of their stars, and he's the only one of them that came to play when their playoff lives were on the line. Seems really weird to pin this on him, or put extra blame on him.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Good teams choke sometimes. It's not the end of the world.

I don't know man. Some fans wait their entire lives to see a true contender and still never get to witness a championship. The majority of players work their entire lives for it and never get to hoist the cup.

Those windows can be so small in retrospect when taking the bigger picture in to account.

It's a tragedy for that franchise if they don't do real damage in the coming years. And every last person will point to this series as the catalyst if they endure decades of futility.

It doesn't help matters that they'll be forever enshrined in the history books.

 

[Butch 19]

bump really not needed - it's covered by maybe 4 - 6 threads already...

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

I don't see how you came to this conclusion. The stats certainly don't support that.

What in Kucherov, Point, or Vasilevsky's playoff history makes them stand out so much beyond what Stamkos has done? Stamkos' playoff history seems pretty consistent with other similar stars, especially considering the injury difficulties he's had.

Hedman I suppose you can make a case for excusing, especially since he played injured, but he probably single-handedly cost them at least 1 game, and I don't know why he was even playing. Kucherov achieved more than Stamkos ever did this season, and was more disappointing than Stamkos has ever been in the playoffs. Literally invisible aside from his stupid suspension. Point did nothing, and had the exact same stats as Stamkos last year. Vasilevsky was really shaky, and doesn't have the best playoff history.

At least Stamkos hasn't been a negative, which is more than I can say for some of their stars, and he's the only one of them that came to play when their playoff lives were on the line. Seems really weird to pin this on him, or put extra blame on him.

A sub .80 ppg is consistent with other stars? Have you looked at his game 7 stats? Show me other star Fs with a sub .80 ppg that are not considered chokers. Dont bother, youre not gonna find many and those that you do earned their reputation.

Idk know what the purpose of your 2nd paragraph even is. It seems the point of it was to refute the claim that stamkos is the sole person to blame for this years failures. Except i or anyone for that matter never made such a claim so...

Stamkos hasnt been a negative and the only one that came to play? Yeah before game 4, he came to play with 0 points and a sucker punch in game 3. Didnt know this was street fighter and not hockey. 4 games, -7, .5 PPG = came to play. Ok, maybe came to play golf... To boot, hes the captain.

Even tampa fans are crucifying the guy.

 

[Seanaconda]

Yzerman was largely viewed as a bad captain who'd never lead the Red Wings anywhere, that is until he actually did at the age of 32. Now he's the GM of the Tampa Bay Lightning, with a captain that's fast taking on the label of "biggest playoff underachiever" at 28 years old. Should the Lightning stay the course with multiple more Cup runs expected under the leadership of Steven Stamkos, or is there cause for concern with him as the leader?

Idk if anyone has mentioned ovie a thousand times as the most recent comparable of someone that couldn't lead his team anywhere till he did.

 

[obey86]

-Plenty cause for concern. Because after next year, Tampa needs to resign everybody including Kucherov who is going to command 9+ million. Tampa has in reality a 1 year window and then they are probably finished.

Huh? Kucherov already has a new 8 year contract which starts next season.

EDIT: ok, I see this post is from 2018 lol. Didn't realize this thread was so old.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Such an incredible short sighted and ignorant take on Stevie in the OP

 

[Dekes For Days]

A sub .80 ppg is consistent with other stars?

The % drop in points from regular season to playoffs in most of his years are pretty consistent with what you see on average from other stars, especially ones that are the primary target of being shut down for the majority of their games. Maybe a little bit lower, but stupid to put that label on him at this point, especially if not doing it for the others on the team, or the team as a whole.

Have you looked at his game 7 stats?

No. Who cares. Such a random, meaningless stat that will never have the sample size to be relevant.

It seems the point of it was to refute the claim that stamkos is the sole person to blame for this years failures. Except i or anyone for that matter never made such a claim so...

Well, he seems to be the main one being brought up everywhere. I didn't say he played well this series. But he definitely didn't play any worse than most people on the team, so I just find it weird how he is being singled out.

Even tampa fans are crucifying the guy.

Tampa fans are scapegoating the guy instead of addressing their bigger problems.

 

[ElysiumAB]

Lol haha haha , where are all theses people that thought Yzerman was a bad captain? You do know what he is still called here in Detroit right?

I was born in 80, so I was super young when he became captain.... but this is also the first I'm ever hearing about that too.

 

[MadLuke]

tbh, I think Tampa just needs to pace themselves better this year. They started out fantastic, but wore down as the season went on. Still have them as a top team this coming year.

Stamkos included, needs to save some energy for the playoffs.

I am not sure how big of a factor fatigue could really be,

Stamkos played under 19 minute a game this season:

2018-19 Tampa Bay Lightning Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

No defencemen played 23 minute or more a game, no Tampa Bay forward played 20 minutes a night, Kucherov was #27 in the league forward in Time on ice by game, while number 3 in the league in power play minute. No Tampa Bay defenceman in the top 30 most used in the league.

Being that deep and having a playoff spot almost right away should have and look like it has afforded them to not play the stars player a lot.

 

[MadLuke]

I was born in 80, so I was super young when he became captain.... but this is also the first I'm ever hearing about that too.

Is reputation has a leader got so bad that outrageous trade rumors started to circulate about him, for example

Top 15 Most Insane Montreal Canadiens Rumors In Team History

Shane Corson for Yzerman.

Yzerman didn't even made Team Canada in 1991 has a peak example of all flash not a winner reputation, look at some name that were pick above him:
1991 Canada Cup rosters - Wikipedia

And Lindros had yet to play any game has a pro.

And now he has the reputation of one of the greatest captain and winner ever.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't think I've ever seen a team play less like they are bought into "being a team" than this one in this series.

And Yzerman built this supposed juggernaut that got steamrolled by an 8 seed without so much as a struggle. Maybe, just maybe, this team isn't built as perfectly as everyone thought an maybe Yzerman isn't quite the GM genius he's been built into.

Imo, cap space isn't the main issue. The main issue is they have a lot of passengers and guys who aren't built for playoff hockey.

Maybe the issue is that winning the cup is really hard even if you do supposedly have all the right pieces in place.

 

[boredmale]

Stamkos never was at a level Yzerman was during his peak. In Yzerman's peak he was giving Gretzky and Lemiueux a run for who the best player in the NHL was

 

[haveandare]

Maybe the issue is that winning the cup is really hard even if you do supposedly have all the right pieces in place.

Looking like a professional hockey team in at least one single game against an 8 seed when you just had the best regular season ever shouldn't be "really hard" for a good team.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Idk if anyone has mentioned ovie a thousand times as the most recent comparable of someone that couldn't lead his team anywhere till he did.

Difference is that OV, with the exception of 1 playoffs, was good to great every year. He's a PPG playoff player, behind only Crosby and Malkin for playoff PPG in this era and has the highest GPG among players with 50+ GP (he's played 124). It was always a case of the supporting cast failing to show up, not OV.

Stamkos is the opposite. Guys like Kucherov, Johnson, etc have had monster playoffs but Stamkos has disappeared every time. His team makes a run despite him, not because of him.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I've seen this brought up by a few people and don't understand. Yzerman was never a bad playoff performer and he never played on a powerhouse team until late in his career. Stamkos has been a terrible playoff performer who's been on a powerhouse for most of his prime. Totally different situations.

 

[Howie Hodge]

I'd definitely say there's cause for concern when the team got manhandled by Washington in key games without putting up much of a fight and then got absolutely destroyed by an 8 seed in a year that they had the best regular season ever.

TB doesn't come out ready to play in big moments. That's a coaching issue and it's a leadership issue imo. Look at the start of game 4 - they looked absolutely shocked despite playing this same team using the same strategy 3 games before and despite the axe hanging over them and the threat of a monumental embarrassment. We saw the same thing with NYR. You can't beat good teams if you come out looking like a bunch of strangers playing pick-up. Other teams will be ready to play and even if you get it together at some point, you'll be in a hole by then.

OV's teams fell short but I don't remember them getting absolutely steamrolled and embarrassed like this, and never while he himself was nowhere to be found.

Why are you quoting me from almost 1 year ago?

This season, to have a more talented team fail in the playoffs, and fail by a larger measure, is clearly of greater magnitude than last years issues with The Bolts.

No one's arguing that.

 

[haveandare]

Why are you quoting me from almost 1 year ago?

This season, to have a more talented team fail in the playoffs, and fail by a larger measure, is clearly of greater magnitude than last years issues with The Bolts.

No one's arguing that.

Because I don’t look at the date of posts when reading a 3 page thread with a title relevant to current happenings? I assumed this was about what just happened yesterday. Silly me.

 

[Voight]

-Plenty cause for concern. Because after next year, Tampa needs to resign everybody including Kucherov who is going to command 9+ million. Tampa has in reality a 1 year window and then they are probably finished.

Kucherov signs eight-year contract extension with Lightning

Only core players not signed long term are Point, Vasi & Sergachev

They've convinced their stars to buy in and take less so I think they can get the other 3 relatively cheap. At least a lot less than UFA.

 

[Voight]

Does anyone think Stamkos is a bad captain?

Funny enough it seems like Yzerman is taking the brunt of the criticism for Tampa like he did for the early 90s Red Wings. Clearly there need to be rumors of him being traded for an up and coming Russian, then that falling through and him winning a cup a few seasons later.

Stamkos also made the finals as a 25 year old which is pretty impressive. Yzerman didn't make the finals until he was 31.

People have to relax. TBL's core is all under 30. This wasn't a one time shot.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Because I don’t look at the date of posts when reading a 3 page thread with a title relevant to current happenings? I assumed this was about what just happened yesterday. Silly me.

As I suspected. Happens when people bump old threads.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

He was labelled "Captain Choker" before he started winning...you apparently didn't watch or read hockey digest, news and other material much in the 80's.

Lol haha haha , where are all theses people that thought Yzerman was a bad captain? You do know what he is still called here in Detroit right?

 

[ricky0034]

I don't think I've ever seen a team play less like they are bought into "being a team" than this one in this series.

And Yzerman built this supposed juggernaut that got steamrolled by an 8 seed without so much as a struggle. Maybe, just maybe, this team isn't built as perfectly as everyone thought an maybe Yzerman isn't quite the GM genius he's been built into.

Imo, cap space isn't the main issue. The main issue is they have a lot of passengers and guys who aren't built for playoff hockey.

give me the 82 game sample size over the 4 game one any day

the former is literally more than 20 times as big as the latter,think about that

4 f***ing games

 

[haveandare]

give me the 82 game sample size over the 4 game one any day

the former is literally more than 20 times as big as the latter,think about that

4 ****ing games

Okay you’re free to value what you want but I’d value actually winning in the playoffs over the regular season.