Is Crosby still a top 5 center?

what do you think?


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Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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Right. A guy with 62.5% offensive zone starts who doesn't penalty kill should win the Selke.

What a joke.

That's almost as bad as the Canadian journalists who nominated Crosby for a sportsmanship award a few weeks after Crosby deliberately slashed Ryan O'Reilly's testicles from behind and then hacked off Marc Methot's finger tip.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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Is it weird that I think putting Matthews over Crosby is premature? Not that it's necessarily "wrong", but Matthews really hasn't proven to be better than Crosby at this point. Like he hasn't shown to be on that clearly better level that guys like McDavid, MacKinnon and Draisaitl have shown. Matthews has a better pace than Crosby this year, but he and Crosby essentially tied last year (in a year where Crosby had to get back surgery due to a hernia) and Crosby smoked him in 2018-2019.

I think McDavid is clearly #1, MacKinnon and Draisaitl are debatable for #2 and #3, and the debate really opens up at #4.

People acting like Crosby is washed really aren't living in reality:



Crosby was hard to judge last year with a very uneven season due to injuries. And so far he's doing ok this year offensively, but nothing special (whereas many others are doing something special). He's also had two poor playoffs in a row (his team even moreso), so it's harder to say "yeah but he's good in playoffs".

I agree with you saying that McDavid is above, as well as Mack/Drai in whatever order, and after that it's a bit more tricky. You can give the benefit of the doubt to Crosby, or prefer something who is currently doing better so far this season (like Matthews). In terms of ability I don't see why Crosby would have declined so much already with age, so he should be able to still play as a top 5C (or more) - but at some point his performances need to stack up too instead of just saying "he's able to". He tends to coast a bit in the regular season in recent years, which doesn't help him much in this argument.

I voted top 5, and think he can still rival with the best - but I'm of the agreement that unless he proves it soon with actual performances, it's going to be fine to rank others above him. Like Matthews.

Right. A guy with 62.5% offensive zone starts who doesn't penalty kill should win the Selke.

What a joke.

That's almost as bad as the Canadian journalists who nominated Crosby for a sportsmanship award a few weeks after Crosby deliberately slashed Ryan O'Reilly's testicles from behind and then hacked off Marc Methot's finger tip.

If you're responding to the tweet above your post - it literally said "Also, Crosby for Selke. Play him on the PK". As in - his defense is good enough to warrant selke conversation, and he should be played on the PK.
 
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Buck Naked

Can't-Stand-Ya
Aug 18, 2016
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Is it weird that I think putting Matthews over Crosby is premature? Not that it's necessarily "wrong", but Matthews really hasn't proven to be better than Crosby at this point. Like he hasn't shown to be on that clearly better level that guys like McDavid, MacKinnon and Draisaitl have shown.

I think you're absolutely correct with this.
 

george14

Registered User
Mar 9, 2014
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By seasons end, I think Crosby will finish top 10 in points and likely top 5-7 in Selke.

So factoring those two things in, I would say he is definitely a top 5 Center still. I know the "but intangibles bro" arguments get silly, but I really do think Crosby is still one of the best in the game. You don't have to lead the league in scoring to be considered the best. LeBron is proof of that (can't stand the guy) being true considering he's led the league in PPG once his entire career.

Also, the @Midnight Judges guy is a notorious Crosby hater. Every single time he posts he is not only bashing Crosby, he's outright making a case that he far worse than he actually is. Then again, I understand how tough it must be championing Ovi yet having to watch Crosby win at every level.
 
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Pensfan891

Registered User
Jan 17, 2016
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Right. A guy with 62.5% offensive zone starts who doesn't penalty kill should win the Selke.

What a joke.

That's almost as bad as the Canadian journalists who nominated Crosby for a sportsmanship award a few weeks after Crosby deliberately slashed Ryan O'Reilly's testicles from behind and then hacked off Marc Methot's finger tip.
If only he chopped your fingers off so we wouldn't have to read your posts.
 

MartinS82

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May 26, 2016
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Crosby was hard to judge last year with a very uneven season due to injuries. And so far he's doing ok this year offensively, but nothing special (whereas many others are doing something special). He's also had two poor playoffs in a row (his team even moreso), so it's harder to say "yeah but he's good in playoffs".

I agree with you saying that McDavid is above, as well as Mack/Drai in whatever order, and after that it's a bit more tricky. You can give the benefit of the doubt to Crosby, or prefer something who is currently doing better so far this season (like Matthews). In terms of ability I don't see why Crosby would have declined so much already with age, so he should be able to still play as a top 5C (or more) - but at some point his performances need to stack up too instead of just saying "he's able to". He tends to coast a bit in the regular season in recent years, which doesn't help him much in this argument.

I voted top 5, and think he can still rival with the best - but I'm of the agreement that unless he proves it soon with actual performances, it's going to be fine to rank others above him. Like Matthews.



If you're responding to the tweet above your post - it literally said "Also, Crosby for Selke. Play him on the PK". As in - his defense is good enough to warrant selke conversation, and he should be played on the PK.

The way the Penguins PK forwards eat pucks, I'd rather just keep him off that unit all together. If the Selke requires a forward to kill penalties (it doesn't) then no Selke is fine by me.

I agree, he is playing pretty well this season, but his stats don't reflect that. On the other hand there are players that are playing well and have the corresponding production. I have him at 5, but could move down a few spots by seasons end. I think he is at best #4...don't see him at the McDrai/McKinnon level by seasons end.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Jun 29, 2009
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The way the Penguins PK forwards eat pucks, I'd rather just keep him off that unit all together. If the Selke requires a forward to kill penalties (it doesn't) then no Selke is fine by me.

I agree, he is playing pretty well this season, but his stats don't reflect that. On the other hand there are players that are playing well and have the corresponding production. I have him at 5, but could move down a few spots by seasons end. I think he is at best #4...don't see him at the McDrai/McKinnon level by seasons end.

Crosby's kind of having a weird bad puck luck year. He's been creating quite a few chances that either his linemates didn't finish or the goalie made a ridiculous save on. I remember in his 89 point season, he wasn't very good all year yet seemed to get more "puck luck" than he is this year where he'd end up with a bunch of assists on rather innocent plays, the kind of points he's not getting this year.
 

nowhereman

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Jan 24, 2010
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He absolutely isn't, and it's not particularly close.
Right. A guy with 62.5% offensive zone starts who doesn't penalty kill should win the Selke.

What a joke.

That's almost as bad as the Canadian journalists who nominated Crosby for a sportsmanship award a few weeks after Crosby deliberately slashed Ryan O'Reilly's testicles from behind and then hacked off Marc Methot's finger tip.
.5 PPG and .25 GPG as a minus 4 over the past two playoffs, while having his team swept once and go 1-3 the other time.

I realize Crosby gets a grace decade on HF and in the Canadian hockey media but this is getting ridiculous.
For a guy who (performatively) tries to claim that he "respects" Crosby and considers him the 6th greatest player of all time, you sure have dedicated a significant (see "obsessive") amount of your time to continually trying to devalue his skill and career accomplishments. I can only imagine how much contempt you have for other legends like Beliveau, Harvey, or the Rocket.

You're not fooling anyone.
 

nowhereman

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Jan 24, 2010
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Barkov is so underrated
No one had him on their top 5 centers list at the end of last season but, after a hot start this year, it's a disservice to his name not to include him on the list?

The fact that everyone has completely forgotten about Eichel, after proclaiming him a top 5 center last year, sort of proves that there's a lot of butterfly catching going on at HFBoards.
 

MrThomas

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Oct 31, 2017
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No one had him on their top 5 centers list at the end of last season but, after a hot start this year, it's a disservice to his name not to include him on the list?

The fact that everyone has completely forgotten about Eichel, after proclaiming him a top 5 center last year, sort of proves that there's a lot of butterfly catching going on at HFBoards.

Eichel has never been top5 center. Barkov has been there before too
 

nowhereman

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Eichel has never been top5 center. Barkov has been there before too
No, Barkov has never been a top 5 center. His best season was in 2018-19, where he finished 6th in scoring amongst centers and 5th in Selke voting. A single season like that does not earn someone a spot in the top 5, especially when he had never played at that level up until that point and had another season after that where he was barely a top 10 center.
 
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KidLine93

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May 15, 2012
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Can’t think of 5 other guys that most teams would take over Crosby in the playoffs.
He's been pretty bad his past few playoffs. His playoff performance fell off with his regular season play over the past few years. Hes closing in on 34 years old so no one should be surprised. Its not like he isnt a star anymore but hes not the same Crosby we all remember anymore
 
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Regal

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Mar 12, 2010
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He's been pretty bad his past few playoffs. His playoff performance fell off with his regular season play over the past few years. Hes closing in on 34 years old so no one should be surprised. Its not like he isnt a star anymore but hes not the same Crosby we all remember anymore

We're talking about 8 games though, including 4 after an anomalous covid break and following hernia surgery. The Pens as a whole were pretty bad as well and he was one of the better players, particularly against Montreal. He also had good underlying numbers those years but an unsustainable 968 PDO
 
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Zuluss

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May 19, 2011
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I am always surprised by how many people actually believe that Crosby has an edge over his peers in the playoffs.
He has 4 goals in 25 SCF games, including 1 goal in his last 12 SCF games. That is nowhere close to a playoff warrior.
All he has been doing was padding his PO stats by beating up bubble teams in the 1st round. Take that away, and he is under ppg in PO.
And recently even his 1st round performance has been bad.
MacK, McD, Drai, Point have all been better recently come PO time.
 
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MrThomas

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No, Barkov has never been a top 5 center. His best season was in 2018-19, where he finished 6th in scoring amongst centers and 5th in Selke voting. A single season like that does not earn someone a spot in the top 5, especially when he had never played at that level up until that point and had another season after that where he was barely a top 10 center.

Well last year he was playing injured. Now he is healthy like 18-19 season again. Itw not a suprise for anyone that Barkov is doing great again
 

Midnight Judges

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Sidney Crosby has the 27th most points among centers since the start of the 2019 season.

He's 32nd in goals.

He's not top 6 in any per game stats either. (7th in PPG, 15th in GPG).

And he doesn't play much of a defensive role.

Top 10 is debatable, and even then Crosby struggles to get in.
 

Adamantoise

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Mar 15, 2021
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We're talking about 8 games though, including 4 after an anomalous covid break and following hernia surgery. The Pens as a whole were pretty bad as well and he was one of the better players, particularly against Montreal. He also had good underlying numbers those years but an unsustainable 968 PDO
Playoffs are always a small sample, but if playoff performance is uses to bump Crosby In a tier above his regular season, the past two playoffs work as an argument against that.
 
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Regal

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Playoffs are always a small sample, but if playoff performance is uses to bump Crosby In a tier above his regular season, the past two playoffs work as an argument against that.

Yes and no. I understand why it can be seen as an argument against him, but I think when you prefer someone like Crosby for the playoffs, it's not about his most recent play in small samples, it's the fact that he has that experience and so has been through the ups and downs before, and it's also based on the assumption that one of the reasons older stars aren't always as good in the regular season tends to be that they're pacing themselves, so they theoretically could bring it more consistently in the playoffs. I don't necessarily prop Crosby up too much based on his playoffs, but for those that are, I don't think looking at recent playoffs in this way is all that useful to determining someone's playoff value.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Playoffs are always a small sample, but if playoff performance is uses to bump Crosby In a tier above his regular season, the past two playoffs work as an argument against that.

Why would last year's playoffs work against him? He was the Pens' best player (admittedly not saying much) versus Montreal and had 3 points in the 4 games.

He was trash versus the Isles, but people seem to be lumping both the Isles and Montreal performances into one when they aren't. One was good, the other was trash.
 

Adamantoise

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Mar 15, 2021
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Why would last year's playoffs work against him? He was the Pens' best player (admittedly not saying much) versus Montreal and had 3 points in the 4 games.

He was trash versus the Isles, but people seem to be lumping both the Isles and Montreal performances into one when they aren't. One was good, the other was trash.
It only works against the argument that Crosbys level of play will suddenly increase to far greater heights in the playoffs. You have recent top centers like Brayden Point having extremely string playoff runs, but it doesn't bump them to a different tier from their regular season performance.

Crosby is a great playoff performer but at this point I dont think theres a reasonable argument that hes any better In playoffs than In regular season.
 

Adamantoise

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Mar 15, 2021
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Yes and no. I understand why it can be seen as an argument against him, but I think when you prefer someone like Crosby for the playoffs, it's not about his most recent play in small samples, it's the fact that he has that experience and so has been through the ups and downs before, and it's also based on the assumption that one of the reasons older stars aren't always as good in the regular season tends to be that they're pacing themselves, so they theoretically could bring it more consistently in the playoffs. I don't necessarily prop Crosby up too much based on his playoffs, but for those that are, I don't think looking at recent playoffs in this way is all that useful to determining someone's playoff value.
I guess I understand that angle, but it just doesn't intellectually satisfy me to give him a bump compared to other contenders. Point, Mackinnon, Draisaitl have had some beastly playoff runs themselves. McDavids two-way game and leadership have grown tremendously. Even EP was a monster In Last years playoffs.

Back In 2018, sure, I'd be all over playoff Crosby > everyone. Right now, just dont see it.
 

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