Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXXIII

[Frenchy]

Plz contine here

Old link

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1807927


Those are the last comments of the previous page

I was thinking the same thing. I would first like to see if that line develops the type of chemistry that it had with Stastny centering it. If it does, lock ROR up and focus on the D.

Seeing Mac on a few more breakaways would be fun too.

MacK has obviously looked better as a winger for his first season and a bit of hockey, but make no mistake about it he's going to be a centre on this team. Being in the middle will allow him to use the open ice a lot more. Why he didn't take advantage of it earlier in the year, I don't know, but it's growing pains, just like Tyler Seguin went through in Boston as they simply refused to play him as a centre. Now he flourishes in Dallas as a centre, it just took him some time.

MacK just needs to play with the same drive and determination that he did today. Drouin clearly brought the best out of him that we've seen in a long, long time. If he can keep this play up, he'll dominate this league.

So it would seem.

I'm also in the camp of MacKinnon at wing. It's probably too early to really tell if he can be a legit center, but he certainly looks better on the wing now. And O'R is a fine #2 center, when he's playing right. It would sure help the Avs if MacKinnon does play center though.

The Avs haven't been able to draft and develop a quality Top 4 defensive-playing defenseman in 20 years. They still can't figure it out.

Before I go down this path, I want to be open about the fact that I've only seen Morgan Reilly play two or three times, so I have no real expertise on him as a player. I though he was OK, but that team is lousy, so it's hard for me to tell with that plus such a small sample set. But I have seen a number of posters in here state that they believe he's a real 1st pairing prospect. With that…..

Like many of us, I've seen an awful lot of trade proposals concerning O'Reilly and Toronto in the trade forum (I think we should give Avs44 the HFboards-Avsgroup version of the CMH, given the tireless battling that guy does in there ). So putting aside the moronic ones concerning Kessel, Duchene, MacKinnon, etc. and focusing on the ones that return a defenseman, I've noticed that they all seem to get stuck on Gardiner vs. Reilly coming back. Avs fans want no part of Gardiner, Toronto fans want no part of giving up Reilly.

Would the members of this group be interested in the following?:

O'Reilly + Bigras for Reilly + 2nd or 3rd round pick.

(The 2nd/3rd round pick is just something to balance it, bring back a bit. That could equally be a mid-level forward prospect.) Is that interesting? Is Reilly that much of a better prospect than Bigras?

Would welcome discussion on this.

while he's a better prospect than Bigras I wouldn't think the difference between them is O'Reilly. I think Bigras is fairly likely to become a top four d. And Rielly Will be somewhere between a #4-2.

We need as many good LD prospects as possible and can't afford to trade them away. Unless we're trading for Oel...

I would not do that trade!!! Why? Reilly has a lot of talent but he still has a lot to proof in this league. (Bigras also by the way).

Bigras has all the tool to become a very good top 4 and Ror is Ror.

So for me, the gamble is not worth it

You all have it wrong. Roy realizes the difference between last year and this year is Benoit.

Buffalo makes sense in the fact they have the assets to package up, and after this season, they don't want to tank anymore. Seems like an offseason sort of deal though.

You just made me a cry a little.

What do you really think we could do in the off-season? I know I'm in the VAST majority here but I will say a couple of things...

1. I like for my two top centers to provide different looks.
2. I believe MacKinnon and Duchene aren't all that different. They both like to use speed...mostly to the outside and look to pass first.
3. ROR is a defensive beast who puts up similar numbers when given quality wingers...reminds me of Stastny but better defensively.
4. We don't have enough wingers capable of playing with two pass-first centers for 20+ minutes.
5. One of Duchene or MacKinnon would return a bigger defense man than ROR.
6. I believe MacKinnon will ultimately become a better center than Duchene...this leads me to believe
7. Duchene should be the odd man out...
8. Or...the Avs should quit thinking of ROR as a winger once and for all and quit thinking of MacKinnon as a center and wait (suck) until defense men develop.

I know there is a huge uncertainty in ROR and his price...but at this point, I'm really thinking the AVs need to get it done and sign him long term. Keep MacKinnon as the highest priced player but as a winger. Get some shooters...they need some Svatos type players.

You don't just sign O'Reilly or get rid of one of the other two, it's not trading cards. If what you say is a big enough issue then MacKinnon becomes a winger is the simplest solution.

And that is my honest hope. I really think MacKinnon could become one of the best wingers in the game of hockey. I really haven't seen much that shows me he could become one of the best centers though....

My hope is all three can be kept but that their roles be defined enough so that folks will quit ******** on ROR. That being said...it wouldn't fix the team.

The defense would still suck....while the AVs still have a bounty of quality centers/forwards.
1. FA sucks for d-men...always has and always will...Very seldom does a top-quality FA dman go to UFA...if he does, he will probably go "home" like Suter.
2. McGinn is injured....he might have been the one player we had who could get a quality young D prospect.
3. Our need for D is so apparent, we'll never get a fair trade. No GM is going to bend over backwards to help us.
4. All we do by waiting for our D prospects to grow and see what we got is burn years and add dollars to our forwards next contracts.

The AVs might very well have created a situation where a they need to reset the rebuild because they concentrated solely on forwards and were so terrible at developing dmen.

I was thinking the same thing. I would first like to see if that line develops the type of chemistry that it had with Stastny centering it. If it does, lock ROR up and focus on the D.

Seeing Mac on a few more breakaways would be fun too.

I absolutely agree with you Ex Tex. I was throwing this same sentiment around this summer. I don't mention it much, but it makes more sense to me. (although it looks like the Avs brass is going down a different path)

Click to read more...

 

[RockLobster]

Before I go down this path, I want to be open about the fact that I've only seen Morgan Reilly play two or three times, so I have no real expertise on him as a player. I though he was OK, but that team is lousy, so it's hard for me to tell with that plus such a small sample set. But I have seen a number of posters in here state that they believe he's a real 1st pairing prospect. With that…..

Like many of us, I've seen an awful lot of trade proposals concerning O'Reilly and Toronto in the trade forum (I think we should give Avs44 the HFboards-Avsgroup version of the CMH, given the tireless battling that guy does in there ). So putting aside the moronic ones concerning Kessel, Duchene, MacKinnon, etc. and focusing on the ones that return a defenseman, I've noticed that they all seem to get stuck on Gardiner vs. Reilly coming back. Avs fans want no part of Gardiner, Toronto fans want no part of giving up Reilly.

Would the members of this group be interested in the following?:

O'Reilly + Bigras for Reilly + 2nd or 3rd round pick.

(The 2nd/3rd round pick is just something to balance it, bring back a bit. That could equally be a mid-level forward prospect.) Is that interesting? Is Reilly that much of a better prospect than Bigras?

Would welcome discussion on this.

I wouldn't because I don't feel that the difference between O'Reilly and Reilly is Bigras. I also happen to feel that the risk is on the Avs' side when it comes to a trade for Reilly because he isn't as proven in the NHL as Ryan O'Reilly is (underperforming season aside because everyone on the Avs save for EJ is underperforming this year).

It still amazes me that people talk on the trade forum as if it's 100% certainty that ANY team that trades for Ryan O'Reilly is guaranteed to lose him when his current contract expires. I'm not talking about the "likelihood" of him leaving, they are talking in absolutes, and that somehow lowers his value.

As been pointed out before, if Stamkos, Doughty, etc. all were being traded with 1.5 years left on their respective contracts, their value wouldn't dip at all. And I'm not trying to say that O'Reilly is the same level of player as those two, but rather saying that good players don't necessarily lose trade value just because they have 1.5 years left on a contract.

 

[hockeyfish]

I wouldn't because I don't feel that the difference between O'Reilly and Reilly is Bigras. I also happen to feel that the risk is on the Avs' side when it comes to a trade for Reilly because he isn't as proven in the NHL as Ryan O'Reilly is (underperforming season aside because everyone on the Avs save for EJ is underperforming this year).

It still amazes me that people talk on the trade forum as if it's 100% certainty that ANY team that trades for Ryan O'Reilly is guaranteed to lose him when his current contract expires. I'm not talking about the "likelihood" of him leaving, they are talking in absolutes, and that somehow lowers his value.

As been pointed out before, if Stamkos, Doughty, etc. all were being traded with 1.5 years left on their respective contracts, their value wouldn't dip at all. And I'm not trying to say that O'Reilly is the same level of player as those two, but rather saying that good players don't necessarily lose trade value just because they have 1.5 years left on a contract.

Being a Rockies fan for so long, I've learned to ignore sweeping general statements from other fans about player values.

But yeah, his value hasn't dipped all that much. I also really like people who claim they will only trade for him if they can negotiate an extension before hand. A, That almost never happens. B, It can't even happen until July 1st.

 

[CB Joe]

I wouldn't because I don't feel that the difference between O'Reilly and Reilly is Bigras. I also happen to feel that the risk is on the Avs' side when it comes to a trade for Reilly because he isn't as proven in the NHL as Ryan O'Reilly is (underperforming season aside because everyone on the Avs save for EJ is underperforming this year).

It still amazes me that people talk on the trade forum as if it's 100% certainty that ANY team that trades for Ryan O'Reilly is guaranteed to lose him when his current contract expires. I'm not talking about the "likelihood" of him leaving, they are talking in absolutes, and that somehow lowers his value.

As been pointed out before, if Stamkos, Doughty, etc. all were being traded with 1.5 years left on their respective contracts, their value wouldn't dip at all. And I'm not trying to say that O'Reilly is the same level of player as those two, but rather saying that good players don't necessarily lose trade value just because they have 1.5 years left on a contract.

Very true. They speak as if O'Reilly is 100% going to leave and that it is too risky, yet offer a prospect and act as if that prospect is going to reach 100% of their potential and there is zero risk for the Avs.

I hope the Avs wait until of the off-season to make their final decision on O'Reilly. Once the off-season hits the Avs will know for sure if they can sign him long term. It also give any trade partner a chance to know his contract demands before trading for him. I really don't believe this dramatic drop in his value is happening day by day. Any GM in the league knows O'Reilly is only 23, soon to be 24, and still has well over a decade of very good hockey left in him.

 

[bohlmeister]

Well to be fair to the others, that is literally the only reason ROR is going to be traded. The Avs know he is going to test the market.

 

[hockeyfish]

Well to be fair to the others, that is literally the only reason ROR is going to be traded. The Avs know he is going to test the market.

Not true. As has been said a million times, Avs need defense, and O'Reilly could be viewed as the best trade chip to make it happen.

 

[bohlmeister]

ROR is a core player and a coach's dream. There is no way he would be moved if they think they could sign him long term.

 

[hockeyfish]

ROR is a core player and a coach's dream. There is no way he would be moved if they think they could sign him long term.

Doesn't mean anything. Perhaps they view him as a core player, but that doesn't mean they don't want to change the core. Nor does it mean whoever they trade for wouldn't be a core player either. Perhaps there is something behind the Buffalo rumors. Perhaps they are offering Myers or Zadorov, and perhaps the Avs view a core with one of them better than a core with O'Reilly.

Point is, there are other factors in play beyond just contract.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Bigras is our best prospect, he's not a + in any deal. I don't care who it is. You don't take two steps forward and one step back. The idea is to build the team. Bigras, Bleackley and our first should be untouchable.

 

[tigervixxxen]

O'Reilly's contract status should be a huge concern, it would.be to us in the reverse situation. We are concerned about keeping Yandle should that become the deal. Now to the point where people think they are getting O'Reilly for a package of assorted crap because of the risk, no. It's clear the Avs are holding out for what they want, Bob even said so. They only need one team to pull the trigger and assume the risk, possibly one where short term gains might mean a lot. Buffalo is a curious one but they have the money to spend at least.

 

[Jayevs]

I still want them to try Hish in the top 6 at some point this year

 

[hughdreamz]

Bigras is our best prospect, he's not a + in any deal. I don't care who it is. You don't take two steps forward and one step back. The idea is to build the team. Bigras, Bleackley and our first should be untouchable.

This. With one big addition to our defense and Siemens and Bigras coming up our defense could be set for a while.

 

[RockLobster]

I also really like people who claim they will only trade for him if they can negotiate an extension before hand. A, That almost never happens. B, It can't even happen until July 1st.

Now this is just me, but I firmly believe that any team trading for O'Reilly will have a very good understanding of what he wants on his contract. Can he sign before July 1st? No, but I'm really positive they're going to know (and likely be comfortable with) what it takes to sign him.

Well to be fair to the others, that is literally the only reason ROR is going to be traded. The Avs know he is going to test the market.

At this point, I believe that the Avs are trading O'Reilly because they are going to stick to their "Internal Cap" (aka "The Duchene Cap") until it needs to be re-prioritized--which will likely be when either EJ and MacKinnon get their next contracts.

O'Reilly's contract status should be a huge concern, it would.be to us in the reverse situation. We are concerned about keeping Yandle should that become the deal. Now to the point where people think they are getting O'Reilly for a package of assorted crap because of the risk, no. It's clear the Avs are holding out for what they want, Bob even said so. They only need one team to pull the trigger and assume the risk, possibly one where short term gains might mean a lot. Buffalo is a curious one but they have the money to spend at least.

I'm not saying that O'Reilly's contract status shouldn't be a concern, it should be...but it's getting tiring seeing people speak with absolute certainty that no matter where he goes, he's 100% leaving that team. I don't think that's the case.

As I stated above, I firmly believe that any team trading for him will have knowledge of what it will take to re-sign him. I don't believe he's hell bent on getting to UFA so much as he (and his agents) are wanting to get what they believe is "fair UFA value" for a player of his stature. Players like O'Reilly very rarely hit UFA at the age he will hit it. I believe he's perfectly willing to sign before UFA if a team steps up and offers him something he truly likes.

 

[Freudian]

Lupul is signed to a terrible contract for what he brings these days. He is one of the more injury prone players in the league. I could see him included to make salaries match, but it wouldn't be as an asset. It would be Avs be willing to take on that contract.

Rielly
Lupul

O'Reilly
Siemens/Geertsen
2015 2nd

 

[RockLobster]

Lupul is signed to a terrible contract for what he brings these days. He is one of the more injury prone players in the league. I could see him included to make salaries match, but it wouldn't be as an asset. It would be Avs be willing to take on that contract.

Rielly
Lupul

O'Reilly
Siemens/Geertsen
2015 2nd

You haven't heard Freud? Ryan O'Reilly is not only an extremely overrated "2nd coming of David Clarkson", but he's also 100% guaranteed to leave via UFA, no matter what any team tries to do to keep him (almost as if he's just going to magically vanish when that time comes) and Morgan Reilly (or any young, unproven defenseman that has potential) is 100% going to reach their absolute highest ceilings....

 

[ABasin]

Bigras is our best prospect, he's not a + in any deal. I don't care who it is.

Bigras, Bleackley and our first should be untouchable.

*shrug*

That's precisely the sort of thing that every fan base in the trade forum says about their recently drafted prospects. It's no less silly and/or annoying just because it comes from us.

No player is untouchable, though MacKinnon's close. There's an acceptable price for any player.

 

[RockLobster]

*shrug* That's precisely the sort of thing that every fan base in the trade forum says about their recently drafted prospects.

It is kind of a catch-22 though AB...Bigras, as far as we can see, was pretty damn close to making the team right out of the draft...now, whether that speaks to the caliber of the Avs defense or his ability (or a little bit of both), it's still impressive.

So I would agree that right now he is our best Prospect. (but I do see what you're saying as well)

 

[ABasin]

Lupul is signed to a terrible contract for what he brings these days. He is one of the more injury prone players in the league. I could see him included to make salaries match, but it wouldn't be as an asset. It would be Avs be willing to take on that contract.

Rielly
Lupul

O'Reilly
Siemens/Geertsen
2015 2nd

Agreed. When healthy, I don't mind Lupul as a player. He's a good offensive forward. But he's an expensive often injured one.

 

[ABasin]

It is kind of a catch-22 though AB...Bigras, as far as we can see, was pretty damn close to making the team right out of the draft...now, whether that speaks to the caliber of the Avs defense or his ability (or a little bit of both), it's still impressive.

Yes, I know. I don't want anyone to feel that I'm on a 'trade Bigras' bandwagon. But with all of the positive Morgan Reilly reviews in here (and hence, if we really feel he's a 1st pairing guy in the making), what price are we willing to pay for that?

Because in the recent past, we paid the price of a 2nd line wing (at the time) and a very promising young defenseman, in return for a 1st pairing defenseman (plus some minor asset). Is what I proposed (O'R plus Bigras) not similar?

Anyway, it was just food for thought and some good discussion.

 

[Freudian]

Yes, I know. I don't want anyone to feel that I'm on a 'trade Bigras' bandwagon. But with all of the positive Morgan Reilly reviews in here (and hence, if we really feel he's a 1st pairing guy in the making), what price are we willing to pay for that?

Because in the recent past, we paid the price of a 2nd line wing (at the time) and a very promising young defenseman, in return for a 1st pairing defenseman (plus some minor asset). Is what I proposed (O'R plus Bigras) not similar?

Anyway, it was just food for thought and some good discussion.

Wait a few years. I think you'll find that the difference between Rielly and Bigras in the NHL is much smaller than you think it will be.

Rielly is a good prospect but he's not the super stud Leafs fans will have you believe. Like with Schenn, Kadri, Gardiner, Nylander and every other skilled young player in that organization, they get overrated.

In most 2009 redrafts O'Reilly usually ends up 4th-5th. In most 2013 redrafts I've read Rielly is 7th-8th.

 

[tigervixxxen]

*shrug*

That's precisely the sort of thing that every fan base in the trade forum says about their recently drafted prospects. It's no less silly and/or annoying just because it comes from us.

No player is untouchable, though MacKinnon's close. There's an acceptable price for any player.

Of course every player has a price but I'm talking within the realm of realism. It's not a solution to get rid of this org's best 3 prospects (the first will be one of them) to make a deal work (when already giving up a nice piece in ROR). We actually need decent prospects, giving one of the scant few we have is not a good idea.

Rielly is not an EJ type of trade. Not sure if there is even something out there that brings in that quality young Dman. I get that you have to give big to get big but you don't want to clean out the cupboards to make a deal too.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Wait a few years. I think you'll find that the difference between Rielly and Bigras in the NHL is much smaller than you think it will be.

Rielly is a good prospect but he's not the super stud Leafs fans will have you believe. Like with Schenn, Kadri, Gardiner, Nylander and every other skilled young player in that organization, they get overrated.

In most 2009 redrafts O'Reilly usually ends up 4th-5th. In most 2013 redrafts I've read Rielly is 7th-8th.

rielly was drafted 2012..

 

[Freudian]

rielly was drafted 2012..

Typo.

Rielly look to be the fourth or fifth best defender from his draft (of course it might change) after Murray, Trouba, Lindholm and possibly Maatta. It's a strong draft for defenders so it doesn't mean Rielly is bad by any means.

A poor mans Leetch isn't the worst thing to be.

 

[ABasin]

Wait a few years. I think you'll find that the difference between Rielly and Bigras in the NHL is much smaller than you think it will be.

In my original post, I tried to be pretty clear that I've only seen Reilly play a few times. Hence, I have no expectations or beliefs concerning any difference between Reilly and Bigras. I was going off what I've read in our forum.

In any case, it doesn't seem like our crew is terribly interested in adding something significant to O'R to get Reilly. Which is fine.

 

[RockLobster]

More Trade Forum gold...

Did you know that we can get Reilly in an O'Reilly deal if we "throw in" MacKinnon? Don't worry though, the Leafs fan that said that said that they could "add a 3rd or 4th to balance it out."



The amount of stupidity....


***EDIT***

I could be misinterpreting it, but in a thread about O'Reilly, I don't believe I am