Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXVIII

[ABasin]

Oh boy people are gonna be disappointed with the return the day ROR is traded. Expectations are through the roof.

No kidding. Right now, there is a proposal in the trade forum: Jack Johnson for Ryan O'Reilly straight up. My guess is that we'll soon see Avs fans in there poopoo'ing it. Guys, if *that* trade violates your sensibilities, there are going to be a LOT of people in here who are going to be apoplectic after they see what O'R actually brings in return.

FWIW, I'd do that trade in 2 seconds and never once look back.

 

[Freudian]

No kidding. Right now, there is a proposal in the trade forum: Jack Johnson for Ryan O'Reilly straight up. My guess is that we'll soon see Avs fans in there poopoo'ing it. Guys, if *that* trade violates your sensibilities, there are going to be a LOT of people in here who are going to be apoplectic after they see what O'R actually brings in return.

FWIW, I'd do that trade in 2 seconds and never once look back.

I have the feeling if Avs did that trade you would start wondering why Jack Johnson keeps making basic mental mistakes soon after.

Avs have such a lack of poise and smarts on the backend as it is. Bringing in someone who is all tools and no toolbox is completely backwards. That's why people would like Avs going after someone like Sekera, who thinks the game well and is more substance than flash.

 

[cgf]

No kidding. Right now, there is a proposal in the trade forum: Jack Johnson for Ryan O'Reilly straight up. My guess is that we'll soon see Avs fans in there poopoo'ing it. Guys, if *that* trade violates your sensibilities, there are going to be a LOT of people in here who are going to be apoplectic after they see what O'R actually brings in return.

FWIW, I'd do that trade in 2 seconds and never once look back.

Eh, I don't like that trade, not because it's not one of the best values we could get for ROR right now, but rather because that is about the best we could even hope for from a ror trade. Thus I'd rather we wait and hope to find the guy we need in FA or at the deadline in a rental trade.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I have the feeling if Avs did that trade you would start wondering why Jack Johnson keeps making basic mental mistakes soon after.

Avs have such a lack of poise and smarts on the backend as it is. Bringing in someone who is all tools and no toolbox is completely backwards. That's why people would like Avs going after someone like Sekera, who thinks the game well and is more substance than flash.

I'm not sure we have the luxury of picking one over the other.

ROR for JJ + 2nd, sign Sekera in the offseason if available. Instant defense turnaround, bring in Bleaks (if ready) next season and Hishon for now.

It's not perfect, but it's a better situation than we're in now. JJ is pretty good, he's matured into the right kind of partner for EJ and they've played together some before. Can we afford to be so choosy that we ignore JJ if ROR is the piece required?

 

[Freudian]

I'm not sure we have the luxury of picking one over the other.

ROR for JJ + 2nd, sign Sekera in the offseason if available. Instant defense turnaround, bring in Bleaks (if ready) next season and Hishon for now.

It's not perfect, but it's a better situation than we're in now. JJ is pretty good, he's matured into the right kind of partner for EJ and they've played together some before. Can we afford to be so choosy that we ignore JJ if ROR is the piece required?

I think he'd completely sink EJ. EJ has enough chaos to his game without adding JJ who is completely unpredictable. All that would accomplish is having EJ be the babysitter and be limited in how he can act. You can't have two players who love to rush the puck and pinch on the same pairing.

There is a reason EJ and Hejda works well together for the most part. Hejda allows EJ to rush the puck and go to the net, forecheck below the goalline and so on. You can tell how much EJ fades when Hejda gets one of his temporary bouts of thinking he's an offensive guy.

If Avs are going to trade O'Reilly with two years left on his deal, I certainly hope they are somewhat picky. It doesn't make any sense to trade him now for an underwhelming return. You don't panic at this point.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I'm not sure we have the luxury of picking one over the other.

ROR for JJ + 2nd, sign Sekera in the offseason if available. Instant defense turnaround, bring in Bleaks (if ready) next season and Hishon for now.

It's not perfect, but it's a better situation than we're in now. JJ is pretty good, he's matured into the right kind of partner for EJ and they've played together some before. Can we afford to be so choosy that we ignore JJ if ROR is the piece required?

Then there is the fact that JJ's contract has three more years (4 w/14-15) at 4.3M... Which is an absolute steal these days.

I think he'd completely sink EJ. EJ has enough chaos to his game without adding JJ who is completely unpredictable. All that would accomplish is having EJ be the babysitter and be limited in how he can act. You can't have two players who love to rush the puck and pinch on the same pairing.

There is a reason EJ and Hejda works well together for the most part. Hejda allows EJ to rush the puck and go to the net, forecheck below the goalline and so on. You can tell how much EJ fades when Hejda gets one of his temporary bouts of thinking he's an offensive guy.

If Avs are going to trade O'Reilly with two years left on his deal, I certainly hope they are somewhat picky. It doesn't make any sense to trade him now for an underwhelming return. You don't panic at this point.

This isn't meant to be an ******* comment, but how much have you watch CBJ/JJ lately? JJ isn't the pure offensive minded defender that he used to be. Hes much more responsible than he used to be. Hes progressed in a positive way since moving to Columbus.

I'm not saying hes without his flaws, but hes definitely not getting enough credit.

 

[agentblack]

JJ would be a great secondary addition but not for ROR. Like I would do Siemens + for JJ and put him on a second pairing.

Im still on the ROR for two great future assets train at the draft.

 

[CobraAcesS]

JJ would be a great secondary addition but not for ROR. Like I would do Siemens + for JJ and put him on a second pairing.

Im still on the ROR for two great future assets train at the draft.

Go propose that for him, and see what happens. Most of them wouldn't trade him for O'Reilly strait across.

I think we're being just as annoying as those fans who say this type of stuff about EJ.

A top 3 on a contract of 4.3M for 4 years is worth more than O'Reilly at this point tbh.


Edit : I should add that personally, the only way I'm moving O'Reilly for defensive help is if we draft high in this draft and have a chance at another core forward. As it stands we can't replace him in the lineup, and there is no sure thing coming through the pipe line.

Someone like Sekera shouldn't cost a core asset either. I'd rather rely on a combination of prospect development and UFA signing (IE Sekera/Staal & Siemens/Bigras), and re-sign O'Reilly, even if he wants 7M long term.

Obviously this changes if they do not believe O'Reilly will sign long term, but they may or may not know any more than the fan base when it comes to O'Reilly's mind on that. Even then, I'd most likely trade him for a forward like Kane. It's easier to imagine getting a forward that would be part of our core group than a defender. O'Reilly just is not going to bring back 'the fix' on defense some people hope he will IMO.

 

[ABasin]

I have the feeling if Avs did that trade you would start wondering why Jack Johnson keeps making basic mental mistakes soon after.

Avs have such a lack of poise and smarts on the backend as it is. Bringing in someone who is all tools and no toolbox is completely backwards. That's why people would like Avs going after someone like Sekera, who thinks the game well and is more substance than flash.

Yeah, a great many Avs fans are going to be HUGELY disappointed in what O'R brings.

 

[ABasin]

Then there is the fact that JJ's contract has three more years (4 w/14-15) at 4.3M... Which is an absolute steal these days.

This isn't meant to be an ******* comment, but how much have you watch CBJ/JJ lately? JJ isn't the pure offensive minded defender that he used to be. Hes much more responsible than he used to be. Hes progressed in a positive way since moving to Columbus.

I'm not saying hes without his flaws, but hes definitely not getting enough credit.

One person gets it.

 

[Freudian]

This isn't meant to be an ******* comment, but how much have you watch CBJ/JJ lately? JJ isn't the pure offensive minded defender that he used to be. Hes much more responsible than he used to be. Hes progressed in a positive way since moving to Columbus.

I'm not saying hes without his flaws, but hes definitely not getting enough credit.

'

I've watched them perhaps ten times last year and a two-three times this year.

I don't see it with him. There are flashes where he looks impressive and of course he's picked up a few lessons. After all, he's 27 now. Any player with such phenomenal physical tools will. But there are way too many mistakes in his game to ever be reliable.

+/- usually isn't a good tool, but with JJ it's somewhat revealing. He's been last on his team all five years with LA (including having -15 while the next worst had -4 and having -21 while the next worst had -2).

In Columbus he's been second worst, worst and now again worst again with -11 in 12 games. In fact the only time he's had a positive +/- in his career was the 21 games he has with Columbus after he was traded there.

To his credit, he can play big minutes without problems and he's being used in all roles with Columbus and he hasn't been the complete train wreck as he was with LA. He's being asked to be more defensive so he can't do as much damage as when he's given full freedom.

 

[Freudian]

Yeah, a great many Avs fans are going to be HUGELY disappointed in what O'R brings.

If he's being traded next summer or even next years trade deadline, I don't think Avs will get a phenomenal return. This is why I wanted Avs to trade him this past summer.

I don't think Avs have any intentions to trade him during this season and if they do, it wont' be a bad return.

It feels like people argue that Avs should trade him for not much now and when they trade him in the future when his value is lower they will say "aha, told you so" despite the situations being completely different.

 

[CobraAcesS]

'

I've watched them perhaps ten times last year and a two-three times this year.

I don't see it with him. There are flashes where he looks impressive and of course he's picked up a few lessons. After all, he's 27 now. Any player with such phenomenal physical tools will. But there are way too many mistakes in his game to ever be reliable.

+/- usually isn't a good tool, but with JJ it's somewhat revealing. He's been last on his team all five years with LA (including having -15 while the next worst had -4 and having -21 while the next worst had -2).

In Columbus he's been second worst, worst and now again worst again with -11 in 12 games. In fact the only time he's had a positive +/- in his career was the 21 games he has with Columbus after he was traded there.

To his credit, he can play big minutes without problems and he's being used in all roles with Columbus and he hasn't been the complete train wreck as he was with LA. He's being asked to be more defensive so he can't do as much damage as when he's given full freedom.

I'm not going to jump on the +/- thing, but I'd consider the impact that playing big minutes against tough competition on a bad team with offensive minded partners would have.

In LA it was a bit different, but on CBJ hes had to be the defensive D on his paring most of the time.

I think one of the reasons EJ & JJ complimented each other so well when they played together was that both of them have flaws. In JJ I still believe hes smarter offensively and has less over all pure hockey sense on the defensive side. While EJ is almost the exact opposite.

I think JJ is much like Phaneuf, except that he does not have a **** show for a personality. Hes a number two playing a #1 role without a strong defensive partner.

Regardless, as I can't say it enough. His contract and still being on the right side of 30 makes him very attractive IMO.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I'm not going to jump on the +/- thing, but I'd consider the impact that playing big minutes against tough competition on a bad team with offensive minded partners would have.

In LA it was a bit different, but on CBJ hes had to be the defensive D on his paring most of the time.

I think one of the reasons EJ & JJ complimented each other so well when they played together was that both of them have flaws. In JJ I still believe hes smarter offensively and has less over all pure hockey sense on the defensive side. While EJ is almost the exact opposite.

I think JJ is much like Phaneuf, except that he does not have a **** show for a personality. Hes a number two playing a #1 role without a strong defensive partner.

Regardless, as I can't say it enough. His contract and still being on the right side of 30 makes him very attractive IMO.

The reason I would want the Avs to acquire JJ is because of how well he and EJ compliment each other. JJ is also one of those guys that hates to lose, and we can always use more players like that. Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if we could swap ROR+something for JJ+McGinn-ish forward

 

[ABasin]

If he's being traded next summer or even next years trade deadline, I don't think Avs will get a phenomenal return. This is why I wanted Avs to trade him this past summer.

I don't think Avs have any intentions to trade him during this season and if they do, it wont' be a bad return.

It feels like people argue that Avs should trade him for not much now and when they trade him in the future when his value is lower they will say "aha, told you so" despite the situations being completely different.

Freudian, come on. We've all been screaming for a 1st pairing left handed defenseman to play alongside EJ. All kinds of discussion of trading O'R for said defenseman.

So now we have a legitimate 1st pairing defenseman, is left handed, is 27 years old, plays in all 3 situations (ES/PP/PK), has size and plays physically, skates well, is good for 30-40 points per season, and is on a contract that is $4.3M for the next 4 seasons.

And you wouldn't move O'Reilly for that?

 

[Freudian]

Freudian, come on. We've all been screaming for a 1st pairing left handed defenseman to play alongside EJ. All kinds of discussion of trading O'R for said defenseman.

So now we have a legitimate 1st pairing defenseman, is left handed, is 27 years old, plays in all 3 situations (ES/PP/PK), has size and plays physically, skates well, is good for 30-40 points per season, and is on a contract that is $4.3M for the next 4 seasons.

And you wouldn't move O'Reilly for that?

I would.

Who is he?

 

[agentblack]

So what about ROR and Hejda

for

JJ and Anisimov or Foligno

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Freudian, come on. We've all been screaming for a 1st pairing left handed defenseman to play alongside EJ. All kinds of discussion of trading O'R for said defenseman.

So now we have a legitimate 1st pairing defenseman, is left handed, is 27 years old, plays in all 3 situations (ES/PP/PK), has size and plays physically, skates well, is good for 30-40 points per season, and is on a contract that is $4.3M for the next 4 seasons.

And you wouldn't move O'Reilly for that?

If we could somehow add a guy like JJ, and then sign Sekera in the off-season our defense would go from one of the worst to one of the best in the league IMO and it would turn our weakness on defense (moving the puck) into one of our biggest strengths.

However, we would need our forward prospects to get things going. We really don't have that much depth up front. Unless the Avs can find a couple of steals, like Everberg, on the UFA market that will become an area of weakness.

Personally, I'd love for the Avs to go after Ahti Oksanen, wanted him last year as he was a good defensemen, this year he is being used as a forward. That's some good versatility to have.

 

[agentblack]

Go propose that for him, and see what happens. Most of them wouldn't trade him for O'Reilly strait across.

I think we're being just as annoying as those fans who say this type of stuff about EJ.

A top 3 on a contract of 4.3M for 4 years is worth more than O'Reilly at this point tbh.


Edit : I should add that personally, the only way I'm moving O'Reilly for defensive help is if we draft high in this draft and have a chance at another core forward. As it stands we can't replace him in the lineup, and there is no sure thing coming through the pipe line.

Someone like Sekera shouldn't cost a core asset either. I'd rather rely on a combination of prospect development and UFA signing (IE Sekera/Staal & Siemens/Bigras), and re-sign O'Reilly, even if he wants 7M long term.

Obviously this changes if they do not believe O'Reilly will sign long term, but they may or may not know any more than the fan base when it comes to O'Reilly's mind on that. Even then, I'd most likely trade him for a forward like Kane. It's easier to imagine getting a forward that would be part of our core group than a defender. O'Reilly just is not going to bring back 'the fix' on defense some people hope he will IMO.

lol ok your right that was bad. See this is why I hate proposals, you cant help but try and scam the other team.

 

[ABasin]

I would.

Who is he?

Funny. To which part do you object - the "legitimate 1st pairing defenseman"?

If he's being traded next summer or even next years trade deadline, I don't think Avs will get a phenomenal return. This is why I wanted Avs to trade him this past summer.

I don't think Avs have any intentions to trade him during this season and if they do, it wont' be a bad return.

It feels like people argue that Avs should trade him for not much now and when they trade him in the future when his value is lower they will say "aha, told you so" despite the situations being completely different.

I actually missed part of this post the first time around.

I agree with everything stated there. So my questions:

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him this Summer?

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him tomorrow?

 

[Freudian]

Funny.

There isn't a need for car salesmanship. If you completely ignore the downsides to Jack Johnson, he sounds good on paper. I could make Jordan Eberle sound like a great first line right wing, but he's completely useless in two of three zones. Jack Johnson is 945/947 among active skaters in +/-, he's in the bottom of the league when it comes to allowing goals when he's on the ice since becoming a NHLer. That's where you find the Luke Schenns (probably someone who was coveted around here at some point together with del Zotto) and Tom Preissings.

Of course there are positives to his game. He's a phenomenal athlete and can play big minutes. I wouldn't agree that he's good for 30-40 points a season. It's closer to 30. He seems to be a genuinely good guy that didn't sulk when he got traded from the eventual cup winners.

Of course he would be an upgrade over Holden, but that shouldn't be the standard we use.

I don't agree with the notion that O'Reilly has to be traded for a defender. Avs have as big holes on the wings if they trade O'Reilly.

I'd be surprised if O'Reilly is traded in-season. The market is much bigger in the summer. Most of the teams who would be interested in O'Reilly don't have much cap space.

 

[Freudian]

I agree with everything stated there. So my questions:

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him this Summer?

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him tomorrow?

Trade value is impossible to tell. It hinges on if the team trading for him expect to be able to re-sign him. I would assume they do.

Vanek with less than one year left on his deal (and likely to bolt to free agency) returned Moulson, 1st 2015 or 1st 2016 (Isles choice) and 2nd.

Ryan with two years left returned 1st (turned out to be 10th overall, but that wasn't expected), Silfverberg and Noesen (former 1st round pick).

Jordan Staal with one year left (but willingness to sign with Carolina) returned Dumolin (good d-prospect) and 8th overall pick.

Those are the closest to analogous trades I can remember in the near past. Vanek was the only one done in-season but it was very early on.

If O'Reilly is traded I suspect it will be some sort of package with good pieces and not a one-for-one trade where a big piece is coming back and since the salary moved is so big I expect it to be next draft/summer when teams are building their team.

 

[agentblack]

Funny. To which part do you object - the "legitimate 1st pairing defenseman"?



I actually missed part of this post the first time around.

I agree with everything stated there. So my questions:

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him this Summer?

- What kind of return do you expect if they trade him tomorrow?

If its in the Summer, it s a draft day deal, everyone has a clean slate then, you know where your picks are at. Depending on the team it could be a pick in the 8-13 range and a top prospect

A trade now would be more likely 2 more pieces coming to and fro
like ROR and a d man for a top 9 fwd and a top 5 coming back.

 

[ABasin]

There isn't a need for car salesmanship. If you completely ignore the downsides to Jack Johnson, he sounds good on paper. I could make Jordan Eberle sound like a great first line right wing, but he's completely useless in two of three zones. Jack Johnson is 945/947 among active skaters in +/-, he's in the bottom of the league when it comes to allowing goals when he's on the ice since becoming a NHLer. That's where you find the Luke Schenns (probably someone who was coveted around here at some point together with del Zotto) and Tom Preissings.

Of course there are positives to his game. He's a phenomenal athlete and can play big minutes. I wouldn't agree that he's good for 30-40 points a season. It's closer to 30. He seems to be a genuinely good guy that didn't sulk when he got traded from the eventual cup winners.

I don't find +/- to be a useful stat in general, and also not in relation to this O'R/JJ trade discussion. Which is a good thing since the two of them are tied for dead last in the NHL in this regard.

Points over the last 5 years: 36, 42, 38, 38 (19 in a half season), 33. Not sure why you'd default to 30 when the average is 37, but whatever. I'm going to ignore the JJ-Preissing comment because it's simply silly. JJ is a legit NHL 1st pairing defenseman, and he's a good player. He's not perfect, but he's good.

I'm wondering what defenseman return Colorado fans would be OK with. I have a feeling it doesn't really exist.

Of course he would be an upgrade over Holden, but that shouldn't be the standard we use.

He would be a significant upgrade over every defenseman on Colorado's roster, except the other Johnson. He'd be capable of playing next to EJ for 23 minutes a night and not be a fairly ugly liability there on that left side, which is kind of what we have now.

I don't agree with the notion that O'Reilly has to be traded for a defender. Avs have as big holes on the wings if they trade O'Reilly.

Seriously? If the Avs don't fill the defensive position with an O'R trade, they kind of lose their biggest chip, don't you think?

I'd be surprised if O'Reilly is traded in-season. The market is much bigger in the summer. Most of the teams who would be interested in O'Reilly don't have much cap space.

- What return would you expect this Summer?
- What return would you expect now?

 

[ABasin]

If its in the Summer, it s a draft day deal, everyone has a clean slate then, you know where your picks are at. Depending on the team it could be a pick in the 8-13 range and a top prospect

Is that what you want for O'R? Or would you prefer a current legit NHL player?

Me, I'm always OK with picks and prospects, but if the Avs are going to move O'R, they need a quality NHL player coming the other way. If a prospect is added to that, fine.