Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LXVI

[member 116861]

1st and Hejda.

I doubt Carolina wants Hejda if they're trading away Sekera.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The first thing is going to get brought up 8600 times this season so I'll try to say my piece now and stay out of it. I really, really am against giving up our first in an extremely strong draft. We have better depth now, let's get one more good prospect into the pipeline because we still need more blue chip prospects. if the first is part of an amazing deal that gives us a huge upgrade then fine, I'm not saying its absolutely untouchable. But we really, really need to think hard about giving it up and to do it for rentals and/or older guys is not it. Also, this is not the year to gamble with the first. If the unfortunate happens and we have a lot of injuries and such to give up something that could be valuable and be a huge piece to our organization would be a big mistake. I'm not even talking McDavid level, even 10-15 could be an amazing asset.

 

[agentblack]

Id be surprised any team deals a first away unless they are like sitting pretty atop the standings, and even then. Cap era has changed everything about this.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

The first thing is going to get brought up 8600 times this season so I'll try to say my piece now and stay out of it. I really, really am against giving up our first in an extremely strong draft. We have better depth now, let's get one more good prospect into the pipeline because we still need more blue chip prospects. if the first is part of an amazing deal that gives us a huge upgrade then fine, I'm not saying its absolutely untouchable. But we really, really need to think hard about giving it up and to do it for rentals and/or older guys is not it. Also, this is not the year to gamble with the first. If the unfortunate happens and we have a lot of injuries and such to give up something that could be valuable and be a huge piece to our organization would be a big mistake. I'm not even talking McDavid level, even 10-15 could be an amazing asset.

^This 100 times. It would have to be a killer deal.

 

[henchman21]

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline 2m
Latest offer from Ryan Johansen's agent, Kurt Overhardt, was 2 yrs, $9.4M, or $4.7M / yr. That's down more than $2M/yr from original offer.

Agent thoughts on the situation.

 

[cgf]

The first thing is going to get brought up 8600 times this season so I'll try to say my piece now and stay out of it. I really, really am against giving up our first in an extremely strong draft. We have better depth now, let's get one more good prospect into the pipeline because we still need more blue chip prospects. if the first is part of an amazing deal that gives us a huge upgrade then fine, I'm not saying its absolutely untouchable. But we really, really need to think hard about giving it up and to do it for rentals and/or older guys is not it. Also, this is not the year to gamble with the first. If the unfortunate happens and we have a lot of injuries and such to give up something that could be valuable and be a huge piece to our organization would be a big mistake. I'm not even talking McDavid level, even 10-15 could be an amazing asset.

I'm generally with you on this...but if it's Sekera coming back that enters too big an upgrade to ignore and would set us up to join the hawks and kings for years to come as long we extended him.

He's still young enough to play with EJ through 2020 so that Siemens and Bigras can be brought along very patiently, even when they hit the NHL. Plus he'd just be such a perfect fit on the ice. He's exactly the kind of guy I think EJ would be his absolute best next to and he's exactly what I hope Bigras grows into. An excellent skater, who's got fantastic defensive instincts and abilities, great stick and gap control, always in the right place and can handle the puck and get it up ice so teams can't focus their forecheck on EJ like they did after Hejda broke his hand.

So if we can get Sekera for it the first becomes a gamble we have to take. Sekera, Holden, Siemens, Bigras and Gaertsen/Beaupre leaves is in a fantastic position with our LHD moving forward. With EJ, Barrie, Redmond and norveau/Elliott we're similarly well positioned on the right.

At that point the only questions would be extending the last of the core, the long term status of our third line (assuming Hishon and Bleackley replace Tanguay and iginla in the top 6, and guys like Henley, heard, Condon, etc. max out as 4th liners), and how long until the core are where they need to be to knock off both la and Chicago.

 

[cgf]

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline 2m
Latest offer from Ryan Johansen's agent, Kurt Overhardt, was 2 yrs, $9.4M, or $4.7M / yr. That's down more than $2M/yr from original offer.

Agent thoughts on the situation.

See , this is why I thought it was so dumb to draw such a public line in the sand at 3per. 4 per raises te bar on high end bridge deals a little bit , but not nearly as much as the Toews and Kane deals raised the bar for elite ufas, so I think it makes sense to try and keep conditions cordial with players looking at bridge deals because those next contracts are going to start eating UFA years that have gotten very expensive so that even if Lumbus got RJ to cave completely they'd still get ***** on his next deal, assuming he does want to stay.

This is why I'd have worked on a 4per bridge deal while laying the foundation for a long term deal extension between 6.5-7.5 to be signed next summer if he has a similar year. In fact setting up that next deal should've been the jackets focus, would've done a lot to show the player that they're serious about paying him what he's worth once he has more than one big year, and also let them slip in that reasonable bridge deal more as an afterthought under the guise of we want to reward you a little now and very well once you do what you do again. That would've put both in a position to comfortably work this out with Lumbus saving a good deal on his UFA years and RJ seeing a bit more than precedent would dictate these next two.

 

[henchman21]

See , this is why I thought it was so dumb to draw such a public line in the sand at 3per. 4 per raises te bar on high end bridge deals a little bit , but not nearly as much as the Toews and Kane deals raised the bar for elite ufas, so I think it makes sense to try and keep conditions cordial with players looking at bridge deals because those next contracts are going to start eating UFA years that have gotten very expensive so that even if Lumbus got RJ to cave completely they'd still get ***** on his next deal, assuming he does want to stay.

This is why I'd have worked on a 4per bridge deal while laying the foundation for a long term deal extension between 6.5-7.5 to be signed next summer if he has a similar year. In fact setting up that next deal should've been the jackets focus, would've done a lot to show the player that they're serious about paying him what he's worth once he has more than one big year, and also let them slip in that reasonable bridge deal more as an afterthought under the guise of we want to reward you a little now and very well once you do what you do again. That would've put both in a position to comfortably work this out with Lumbus saving a good deal on his UFA years and RJ seeing a bit more than precedent would dictate these next two.

When other agents are speaking out about how an agent/player is being unreasonable, you know it is bad. Columbus isn't the bad guy here at all, Johansen needs to tell his agent to end this charade.

$4m is probably a bit higher than reasonable for a bridge deal, but could probably be workable. If Johansen had started at ~$4.5m per and was willing to go down to ~$4m, the deal would have been done a long time ago. Instead he wanted 6.5+ per to start and went public with a $4.7m per offer. $4.7 isn't a reasonable bridge deal for him IMO. Columbus is obviously going to balk at a bridge deal that pushes the market up 117% and then a counter that pushes it up 57%. Way too much of a market reset.

25-30% over what Duchene/Couture made is probably the high end of reasonable.

 

[Avs_19]

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline 2m
Latest offer from Ryan Johansen's agent, Kurt Overhardt, was 2 yrs, $9.4M, or $4.7M / yr. That's down more than $2M/yr from original offer.

Agent thoughts on the situation.

That's fair. I hope they stick to this and refuse to go any lower.

 

[tigervixxxen]

A 4 per bridge deal makes sense to me too but anything more than that doesn't make sense long term. If you want more then you have to get more term. A player can't get paid now for tomorrow with tomorrow's dollars.

 

[Avs44]

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline 2m
Latest offer from Ryan Johansen's agent, Kurt Overhardt, was 2 yrs, $9.4M, or $4.7M / yr. That's down more than $2M/yr from original offer.

Agent thoughts on the situation.

Will be very interesting to see if Johansen will bend completely and go down to three million. The Jackets were really stupid for being so adamant publicly about not going over three million per year. Now they either go up to 3.5m+ and look like they didn't mean what they said, or they stay stubborn and don't negotiate with a player who just dropped his demands by two million. Should have just kept their mouths shut and stayed professional. I'll be shocked if Johansen goes all the down to three million per year, and if he does just so he can play, I have no doubt he'll be really really bitter about it.

 

[henchman21]

Will be very interesting to see if Johansen will bend completely and go down to three million. The Jackets were really stupid for being so adamant publicly about not going over three million per year. Now they either go up to 3.5m+ and look like they didn't mean what they said, or they stay stubborn and don't negotiate with a player who just dropped his demands by two million. Should have just kept their mouths shut and stayed professional. I'll be shocked if Johansen goes all the down to three million per year, and if he does just so he can play, I have no doubt he'll be really really bitter about it.

It was a PR move meant to put pressure on Johansen to come down right away. It seemed to work, but they will have to bend a bit to finish the deal. I don't think they will go to or above $4m.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

If Columbus doesn't budge above 4mil and Johansen caves it will be a big weakening of their position going forward and almost assuredly mean player elected arbitration. He deserves in the 4.5mil range given today's contract climate, I see no reason they should cave below 4mil.

 

[AvsFan2123]

After reading all the posts from training camp, this is how I see the season starting:

O'Reilly - Duchene - Iginla
Landeskog - MacKinnon - Tanguay
McGinn - Mitchell - Briere
McLeod - Winchester - Talbot

Stuart - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
Holden - Redmond

I'm going to say that Cliche gets the extra forward spot and Noreau and Guenin on D. But, if Mitchell and McGinn's injuries last into the season, I can see a bottom six like this:

Talbot - Hishon - Briere
McLeod - Winchester - Cliche

Vincour can maybe make an appearance. But I bet Roy goes with his guy first. That third line is small but offensively decent with those guys hurt.

 

[Avs44]

It was a PR move meant to put pressure on Johansen to come down right away. It seemed to work, but they will have to bend a bit to finish the deal. I don't think they will go to or above $4m.

It was a PR move, yes, but they also seemed fairly serious. Johansen, from his perspective, just made a massive concession(and he did, regardless of how ridiculous his original demands were, dropping nearly two million from what you're asking is huge.) I'm sure his camp is now expecting, and they have the right to expect, that the Jackets will now make a similar concession. If they're asking for 4.7m that's not what they actually want, it's a negotiation tactic, but I don't see Johansen dropping a further million or more down from that. The onus is on the Jackets to come back to the table now with a better offer.


If they don't and Johansen eventually caves completely so he can continue in his career, they don't deserve to have him and no doubt all negotiations in the future would be very ugly.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Who has come even close to a 4.5m bridge deal in his position? Forwards haven't recieved anywhere close to that. Is he worth that and more, yes but then you are talking a long term deal. Columbus certainly has to get up to 3.5 and probably 4 but them stating their position of 3 is just negotiation just like why Johansen started at 6 was to meet at 4.5.

 

[henchman21]

I don't see $4.7 as reasonable. The highest bridge deal for forwards is still Duchene, and going up to 4.7m is way too much of a market reset (57%).

Even Kane and Towes didn't reset the market that much. Let's just say they are similar players to Perry and Getz who were the last big time UFAs to be resigned. They signed at 8.625 and 8.25 respectively. Kane and Towes reset the market by 22% judging by Perry and 27% based on Getz. I would even argue that Kane and Towes are better players, so they didn't even reset as much as those numbers indicate.

Put those numbers to Duchene's bridge and you have 3.66 or 3.81m. A deal within that range is plenty fair.

 

[cgf]

When other agents are speaking out about how an agent/player is being unreasonable, you know it is bad. Columbus isn't the bad guy here at all, Johansen needs to tell his agent to end this charade.

$4m is probably a bit higher than reasonable for a bridge deal, but could probably be workable. If Johansen had started at ~$4.5m per and was willing to go down to ~$4m, the deal would have been done a long time ago. Instead he wanted 6.5+ per to start and went public with a $4.7m per offer. $4.7 isn't a reasonable bridge deal for him IMO. Columbus is obviously going to balk at a bridge deal that pushes the market up 117% and then a counter that pushes it up 57%. Way too much of a market reset.

25-30% over what Duchene/Couture made is probably the high end of reasonable.

Oh I will not argue at all with johansen's initial stance being absolutely unreasonable, but I think Lumbus made the situation worse by taking such a hard line stance of their own, and then bringing specific contract details up to the press to me is a huge no-no and big breach of etiquette that I'd be very upset with...although again I wouldn't have taken the absurd stance RJ took that lead to that point.

As a percentage of what the cap ended up Matt Duchene's deal would be equivalent to a little over 3.7 per now, and given the way UFA years have taken off for elite players under the new CBA I think the way young rfas who will be elite ufas are handle needs to adapt to. So I think 4 per would be competely fair and 4.5 could even make sense, though would be high IMO. Which is why in Columbus's position I would be emphasizing my willingness to raise the bar on a top end bridge deal because my focus was on working out the long term deal that works for both sides and helps Columbus avoid paying the 9+ a first line 30+ goal C is likely to demand when RJ is hitting his UFA days in 4 years, and johansen gets the biggest RFA deal in history alongside the foundation for a deal that sets him up for life at a light discount for his prime years.

 

[cgf]

A 4 per bridge deal makes sense to me too but anything more than that doesn't make sense long term. If you want more then you have to get more term. A player can't get paid now for tomorrow with tomorrow's dollars.

I don my disagree, but at the same time, the difference between two years 8 million dollars and two years nine million dollars isn't so much that I'd poison such an important relationship like they have. Avoiding that conflict with the biggest young player in franchise history, at a time where the organization is making real progress for the first time, is worth the extra mil over two years in my eyes.

 

[Avs_19]

Salary cap is higher than it has ever been, why can't the RFA salaries go up too? Why should everyone be restricted to $3.5M/yr or what others have gotten in the past?

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I don't see $4.7 as reasonable. The highest bridge deal for forwards is still Duchene, and going up to 4.7m is way too much of a market reset (57%).

Even Kane and Towes didn't reset the market that much. Let's just say they are similar players to Perry and Getz who were the last big time UFAs to be resigned. They signed at 8.625 and 8.25 respectively. Kane and Towes reset the market by 22% judging by Perry and 27% based on Getz. I would even argue that Kane and Towes are better players, so they didn't even reset as much as those numbers indicate.

Put those numbers to Duchene's bridge and you have 3.66 or 3.81m. A deal within that range is plenty fair.

Duchy's deal was lower than it should have been, you really can't compare him with Johansen. One was coming off an injury plagued season and the other hit career highs.

Despite the offersheet, somewhere a little south of ROR's bridge deal should be market value.

 

[henchman21]

Oh I will not argue at all with johansen's initial stance being absolutely unreasonable, but I think Lumbus made the situation worse by taking such a hard line stance of their own, and then bringing specific contract details up to the press to me is a huge no-no and big breach of etiquette that I'd be very upset with...although again I wouldn't have taken the absurd stance RJ took that lead to that point.

As a percentage of what the cap ended up Matt Duchene's deal would be equivalent to a little over 3.7 per now, and given the way UFA years have taken off for elite players under the new CBA I think the way young rfas who will be elite ufas are handle needs to adapt to. So I think 4 per would be competely fair and 4.5 could even make sense, though would be high IMO. Which is why in Columbus's position I would be emphasizing my willingness to raise the bar on a top end bridge deal because my focus was on working out the long term deal that works for both sides and helps Columbus avoid paying the 9+ a first line 30+ goal C is likely to demand when RJ is hitting his UFA days in 4 years, and johansen gets the biggest RFA deal in history alongside the foundation for a deal that sets him up for life at a light discount for his prime years.

IMO Columbus only did that as a last resort in trying to get him to come down. No doubt it is ugly, but I don't think it was emotional... it was calculated and it worked. To what extent is the only question now.

I really think if RyJo was willing to take $4m on a bridge, there would be a deal in place.

 

[cgf]

As for our roster I read briere and talbot showed good chemistry. Given that briere is a lot better as a center than winger, I think if healthy our best bet would be McG-Briere-Talbs on the third line with Malkin centering Winchester and a goon. I know Patrick loves Malkin , but I think that's what patty would go with as well.

 

[cgf]

IMO Columbus only did that as a last resort in trying to get him to come down. No doubt it is ugly, but I don't think it was emotional... it was calculated and it worked. To what extent is the only question now.

I really think if RyJo was willing to take $4m on a bridge, there would be a deal in place.

That and to placate the fans is why they did it, but if I was a player I'd hate seeing them do that, even if I wasn't the player they did that to. And I would expect rj to bleed them for every dime next time around and then again if he doesn't want to leave in UFA.

I just feel going public with specific numbers is simply unacceptable. Using the media to create pressure and build leverage is one thing, but releasing specific numbers, and doing so directly, not even having the decency to leak it, that's just not something I would forgive management for and we'd never be able to negotiate in good faith again.

 

[henchman21]

Duchy's deal was lower than it should have been, you really can't compare him with Johansen. One was coming off an injury plagued season and the other hit career highs.

Despite the offersheet, somewhere a little south of ROR's bridge deal should be market value.

How about Couture's then? A more similar path, but Couture had 2 years of production (2 30 goal seasons vs 1). His deal's AAV was 2.85 and would only lower those numbers. IMO Duchene was a better player coming off his ELC (his 2nd year showed big potential) than Johansen is now.

Because ROR's was an offersheet it isn't applicable IMO. It was designed to have the Avs not match. If Johansen can find a willing partner he can do the same thing as ROR did. He won't have much luck finding a partner though.

That and to placate the fans is why they did it, but if I was a player I'd hate seeing them do that, even if I wasn't the player they did that to. And I would expect rj to bleed them for every dime next time around and then again if he doesn't want to leave in UFA.

That is part of the risk they take, but I doubt that Johansen would treat them any differently on the next go round. Much like ROR won't for his. Those types of players are going to go after every cent they can.