In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) LVIII

[Bubba Thudd]

Every single time someone mentions Markov it makes me scratch my head. At 36 (next year), he won't play until a prospect is good enough to become the #2 Dman on this team. He has a couple of years left (and not his best years, mind you). Markov with the AVS is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg. He's NOT the solution to fix the D.

What we need a #2 in his prime (24-30 years old) capable of playing for the next 5+ years and able to grow with the core of the team, not an old guy for one or two seasons (might as well keep Hedja who's exactly that). Hell, Markov' age is already showing during the current Habs' playoff run.

He's a bandaid, but it's better to get a bandaid than to just let the bleeding continue, at least until we can get the necessary transplant that we need to fix the problem.

 

[Balthazar]

Agree to disagree. Krejci proven playoff performer aside from this season and doesnt get enough credit for defensive play.

I obviously like Krejci more than most just may cost too much for the Bruins next season as a UFA.

Avalanche are a very fun team to watch and will be scary in the future. Good luck next season.

ROR is 23 and Krejci is 28 and an upcoming UFA. Both are natural centers but ROR is also playing well on the wing. Last season, they had similar numbers offensively except that ROR had 9 more goals.

I know you were just asking but I honestly have no idea why you'd think the AVS would do that trade?

 

[Balthazar]

He's a bandaid, but it's better to get a bandaid than to just let the bleeding continue, at least until we can get the necessary transplant that we need to fix the problem.

I just don't see it. Save the money and sign Niskanen or (if we keep Stastny) trade ROR for a top D.

Niskanen is obviously the best solution though.

EDIT: there's also the possibility of signing ROR and Stastny and then trying to trade Duchene+ for Weber, but that's probably not happening.

 

[kdog82]

ROR is 23 and Krejci is 28 and an upcoming UFA. Both are natural centers but ROR is also playing well on the wing. Last season, they had similar numbers offensively except that ROR had 9 more goals.

I know you were just asking but I honestly have no idea why you'd think the AVS would do that trade?

My reasoning is that the Av's probably lose Statsny to FA and ROR is a RFA who has given Av's ownership a hard time in the past. You need 3 solid lines to succeed in the playoffs.

Krejci
Duchene
Mac

 

[InjuredChoker]

My reasoning is that the Av's probably lose Statsny to FA and ROR is a RFA who has given Av's ownership a hard time in the past. You need 3 solid lines to succeed in the playoffs.

Krejci
Duchene
Mac

krejci would be third line C very soon. don't want to play 7+ mil for one.

Bs already have two RORs anyway.

 

[boz]

Olver signs in the KHL..writing was on the wall all season really..

 

[chet1926]

Those of you that are against bringing in Kesler are just holding a grudge against a very solid player. He is the exact kind of player the Avs need at the moment. A tough to play against, fairly skilled, forward with elite level defensive abilities.

At this point I'd say the chances of bringing back Stastny are less than 25%, it just doesn't look like things are on the right page there. Kesler would be a great replacement.

I'd say right now you'd play him on the wing with Duchene and RoR, and let MacK play 2nd line center. I guarantee if Kesler plays with those two he scores at least 30 goals. Look at his stats when he got to play with the Sedins. He was a 40 Goal scorer one year and was close to pt/game status. And the best part is here he wouldn't have to be a focal point, he could be a secondary player. I'd say 30G/30A year wouldn't be out of the question. Which is about what Stastny has been giving us the past 3 years offensively.

Its time to realize that there is a decent chance Stastny isn't coming back, we should be looking at all options to replace him. Getting Kesler would be a seamless transition as they are fairly equal players and you can expect similar outputs.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

My point is that this is a team sport, you can't pull a bunch of stats and treat them as if they came out of a vacuum.............Just because they managed without him in the lineup doesn't mean he is any less valuable to the team......Jesus, butthurt much?...........I'm not prepared to sit here and bang my head against the wall until you agree with me................I can twist your stats in an entirely different angle...........Like I said, I really just don't understand what you are arguing at this point............he should be considered as part of the core of this team again and not just a complimentary player..........The problem with valuing him on par with Landy and RoR is that you then have to understand that he is a UFA and obviously therefore is looking for more money than our RFAs likely are...........I think it is fair for him to ask for anything in the range of 7M AAV

I pulled the stats that are relevant to the discussion. Feel free to pull your own, ya know, instead of this tactic of spinning what i am saying and putting words in my mouth over and over again and acting like I am arguing something I am not.

For the 10th time now, i was not using those stats to show that he was invaluable. I used those to show that he is not as valuable as others were claiming- 'we would fall apart defensively', 'macK would not be as effective'. There is nothing more to read into it other than to disprove the idea that we would fall apart without him. At this point, you got to be doing this on purpose.

Nope, not butthurt. There is just no need for this "you dont know what you are talking about" crap. Especially when all you are doing is changing around what I am trying to say. Its a ridiculous tactic, and i figured rolling my eyes at it would be better than calling you names for doing this crap. Thanks for clarifying though. That is certainly a lot different than what you originally said.

No need to bang your head. It seems like we actually think about the same of Staz, according to your glue guy comment. You just need to figure out what I am actually saying, instead of trying to read into what you thought I was implying.

So twist the stats, instead of this other stuff. Seriously, i would love to see how the stats are twisted to show that we did suffer when he was out.

Clearly you dont understand what i am arguing. So why do you keep arguing as if you do by acting as if I am trying to argue that Staz was not valuable to the team and we were actually better without him? Cause that certainly isnt what I was implying. And I have said that numerous times.

He should be part of the core. The guy is a great piece to have on the team and a legit top 6, well rounded player. Though i would say "complimentary" and "glue guy" are pretty much one in the same, but that's just semantics.

Being an RFA is meaningless to me. IF thats the case then the whole discount comment is complete BS. Dude is looking to get as much money as possible if thats the way he is looking at it, and just straight up being selfish. Greed is not a good teammate quality. People should be paid based on their talents, not their contract status. And if he thinks he deserves more because he is a RFA well then let him walk. That is not an attitude I want on our team.

No way does he deserve close to 7 mil. Thats what the elite superstar players in the league get paid. Not a "glue guy".

 

[Avs71]

The part I don't get about the Kesler replacing Stastny talk is wouldn't it just be better to overpay Stastny and keep the roster players, picks, and prospects required to get Kesler?

I mean Kesler's caphit is already 5.00 and he will probably want a raise in the same year that EJ and MacKinnon will.

This rumour only made sense back when the Avs were supposedly talking about trading Stastny for him.

And their production isn't as close as some have mentioned. Stastny's PPG over the last 3 seasons is 0.72. Kesler's is 0.61. That's almost a 10 point spread.

 

[henchman21]

Those of you that are against bringing in Kesler are just holding a grudge against a very solid player. He is the exact kind of player the Avs need at the moment. A tough to play against, fairly skilled, forward with elite level defensive abilities.

At this point I'd say the chances of bringing back Stastny are less than 25%, it just doesn't look like things are on the right page there. Kesler would be a great replacement.

I'd say right now you'd play him on the wing with Duchene and RoR, and let MacK play 2nd line center. I guarantee if Kesler plays with those two he scores at least 30 goals. Look at his stats when he got to play with the Sedins. He was a 40 Goal scorer one year and was close to pt/game status. And the best part is here he wouldn't have to be a focal point, he could be a secondary player. I'd say 30G/30A year wouldn't be out of the question. Which is about what Stastny has been giving us the past 3 years offensively.

Its time to realize that there is a decent chance Stastny isn't coming back, we should be looking at all options to replace him. Getting Kesler would be a seamless transition as they are fairly equal players and you can expect similar outputs.

I agree... Kesler is a hell of a player and very versatile. I think it would be more likely to have Kesler play with MacK (Kesler playing RW unless MacK has issues at center). A Landy-MacK-Kesler line would be absolute hell to play against... speed, grit, goal scoring ability, great defense, etc. Tangs could fit well with Duchene and ROR IMO.

The issue is do the Avs have the assets to pull off the trade over Pittsburgh and Anaheim? Anaheim can easily offer Etem (still a solid prospect IMO) + Rakell + 10th pick and Pittsburgh can offer Sutter + Despres/similar + 22nd pick. The best the Avs can do is Siemens + 23rd + McGinn/PAP/Rights to Statsny with conditional pick... and that could hurt the Avs ability to get the younger defensemen they obviously want.

 

[hockeyfish]

The part I don't get about the Kesler replacing Stastny talk is wouldn't it just be better to overpay Stastny and keep the roster players, picks, and prospects required to get Kesler?

I mean Kesler's caphit is already 5.00 and he will probably want a raise in the same year that EJ and MacKinnon will.

This rumour only made sense back when the Avs were supposedly talking about trading Stastny for him.

I agree. Only really makes sense if either Stastny want to go to another team (I guess it's possible if he feels he won't be a big part of the team in the future), or if it's a bigger trade that lands us one of their D as well (I have no idea how that would work unless they are just desperate to tear it apart and get younger/cheaper).

 

[InjuredChoker]

canucks fans are kind of... asinine on what they think they'll get for kesler.

one would think luongo would have thought them something.

 

[Balthazar]

I pulled the stats that are relevant to the discussion. Feel free to pull your own, ya know, instead of this tactic of spinning what i am saying and putting words in my mouth over and over again and acting like I am arguing something I am not.

You quoted me but I never wrote what's in the quote. Not sure what you've done but it's wrong.

 

[hockeyfish]

canucks fans are kind of... asinine on what they think they'll get for kesler.

one would think luongo would have thought them something.

Considering all the crap that happened with that situation, they really didn't do all that bad.

 

[henchman21]

canucks fans are kind of... asinine on what they think they'll get for kesler.

one would think luongo would have thought them something.

The price is rumored to be a young, established forward, a top prospect, and a 1st round pick. That isn't unreasonable IMO (haven't paid attention to what Canuck fans are wanting).

 

[R S]

I like Kesler, but why is everyone so hyped up about trying to acquire him?

If we lose Stastny, I'm pretty sure it's a dead lock that we will just move MacKinnon back to C on the 2nd line. Roy wants it and that's where the kid has played his entire life.

If that's the case, then we'll be looking to spend Paul's $6.6M to not only fill a hole or two on the blueline, but we'll have some extra cash to add a right winger (Vrbata? perhaps) and a true 3rd line C (Goc? perhaps).

Kesler won't happen with or without Stastny.

 

[henchman21]

I like Kesler, but why is everyone so hyped up about trying to acquire him?

If we lose Stastny, I'm pretty sure it's a dead lock that we will just move MacKinnon back to C on the 2nd line. Roy wants it and that's where the kid has played his entire life.

If that's the case, then we'll be looking to spend Paul's $6.6M to not only fill a hole or two on the blueline, but we'll have some extra cash to add a right winger (Vrbata? perhaps) and a true 3rd line C (Goc? perhaps).

Kesler won't happen with or without Stastny.

It is because Kesler is an excellent all around player that gives another right shot in the lineup and a player that can play center or wing. IMO Kesler would be much more likely to play wing than center with the Avs. If Stastny is a goner (I'm not ready to board that train), Kesler would be an excellent addition to the the team and allow the Avs to continue to have an excellent top 6. Now, spending the assets to get Kesler would be questionable with the glaring top 4 LD need. Sakic and Roy would really have to have a plan to make it work.

 

[R S]

It is because Kesler is an excellent all around player that gives another right shot in the lineup and a player that can play center or wing. IMO Kesler would be much more likely to play wing than center with the Avs. If Stastny is a goner (I'm not ready to board that train), Kesler would be an excellent addition to the the team and allow the Avs to continue to have an excellent top 6. Now, spending the assets to get Kesler would be questionable with the glaring top 4 LD need. Sakic and Roy would really have to have a plan to make it work.

This is exactly the problem.

We have enough holes to fill, let alone giving up some players to fill holes that aren't as glaring.

 

[ABasin]

Those of you that are against bringing in Kesler are just holding a grudge against a very solid player. He is the exact kind of player the Avs need at the moment. A tough to play against, fairly skilled, forward with elite level defensive abilities.

Its time to realize that there is a decent chance Stastny isn't coming back, we should be looking at all options to replace him. Getting Kesler would be a seamless transition as they are fairly equal players and you can expect similar outputs.

I'm against bringing Kesler in, but I completely agree with everything you say there.

The reason I'm against it, is because Kesler will be expensive (in a trade), and the Avs have only so many assets they can part with in trades this offseason. If they blow their best tradeable assets (which they likely would have to to acquire Kesler), they won't have said assets to go improve the defense.

The Avs need improved defense first and foremost, even if Stastny leaves (which I think he will). IMO.

 

[chet1926]

I agree... Kesler is a hell of a player and very versatile. I think it would be more likely to have Kesler play with MacK (Kesler playing RW unless MacK has issues at center). A Landy-MacK-Kesler line would be absolute hell to play against... speed, grit, goal scoring ability, great defense, etc. Tangs could fit well with Duchene and ROR IMO.

The issue is do the Avs have the assets to pull off the trade over Pittsburgh and Anaheim? Anaheim can easily offer Etem (still a solid prospect IMO) + Rakell + 10th pick and Pittsburgh can offer Sutter + Despres/similar + 22nd pick. The best the Avs can do is Siemens + 23rd + McGinn/PAP/Rights to Statsny with conditional pick... and that could hurt the Avs ability to get the younger defensemen they obviously want.

I don't think teams will have to give up as much as you think to get Kesler. Basically you're doing them a favor by taking 5M in salary, plus Kesler has made it clear he doesn't want to be there.

The thing the Avs could offer that Anaheim or Pittsburgh can't is the ability to make a trade without Vancouver taking much back salary wise. For one of those teams to land Kesler they'd have to give Vancouver about the same amount of salary back. Whereas the Avs could offer up a package that wouldn't require much in the way of salary coming back.

Say something like McGinn, 1st pick, Pickard (their goalie situation is kind of crap right now), rights to Stastny for Kesler and Matthias.

They get Stastny signed it's a pretty fair trade Stastny = Kesler, and I'd say McGinn, Pickard and 1st > Matthais. The only reason I include the first is because it's insurance in case they can't get Stastny signed.

We'd have a very balanced team after that trade:

ROR-Duchene-Kesler
Landy-MacK-Tanguay
Talbot-Matthias-PAP
McCleod-Mitchell-Bordy

 

[Bubba Thudd]

This is exactly the problem.

We have enough holes to fill, let alone giving up some players to fill holes that aren't as glaring.

Exactly how I see it. Kesler would be a luxury, and we have glaring holes that need filled first.

 

[ABasin]

If we lose Stastny, I'm pretty sure it's a dead lock that we will just move MacKinnon back to C on the 2nd line. Roy wants it and that's where the kid has played his entire life.

If that's the case, then we'll be looking to spend Paul's $6.6M to not only fill a hole or two on the blueline, but we'll have some extra cash to add a right winger (Vrbata? perhaps) and a true 3rd line C (Goc? perhaps).

If Stastny leaves and the Avs go get a forward, would Roy want a player with some size?

 

[henchman21]

This is exactly the problem.

We have enough holes to fill, let alone giving up some players to fill holes that aren't as glaring.

I agree... if Sakic and Roy want Kesler they will really have to have a plan. If it happened, I would expect the Avs to be very busy in trades and free agents.

I don't think teams will have to give up as much as you think to get Kesler. Basically you're doing them a favor by taking 5M in salary, plus Kesler has made it clear he doesn't want to be there.

The thing the Avs could offer that Anaheim or Pittsburgh can't is the ability to make a trade without Vancouver taking much back salary wise. For one of those teams to land Kesler they'd have to give Vancouver about the same amount of salary back. Whereas the Avs could offer up a package that wouldn't require much in the way of salary coming back.

Vancouver doesn't need to trade Kesler (though they probably should), and Kesler at $5m is bordering on a bargain for what he brings. It is pretty well known that Pittsburgh offered Sutter + Despres/Dumoulin + their 2014 1st for Kesler, and Vancouver rejected it because they wanted Pouliot instead. Now I doubt they can get a package like a Sutter + Pouliot + 1st, but they can get the Sutter + Despres + 1st package pretty easily. The Avs would have to come close to that.

The salary part is kind of interesting... I'd venture to guess that any trade the Avs made for Kesler would also bring back Booth.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Dater and co, sorry I was vague there. I don't think your points are as far off as others are making it seem. The stats are interesting, I don't think you were presenting them as absolutes. One thing I notice in the year by year Stastny stats is that he's pretty right on for about 20 goals every year, it's the assists that fluctuate wildly. So in retaining him I'd feel pretty good about getting at least 20 goal production out of him. I think it's fair to ask if that's worth 6+M too. The lineup was better with him, his passing helped MacKinnon and he was good defensively. I don't think Stastny is a core piece but he's a very nice complimentary piece. That's part of the question too, what do you pay a complimentary piece, a very important one.

Thanks. Was guessing it was Dater and Co.

6M sounds pretty fair to me, though on the high end. I would break it down like this as far as forwards go:
The superstars (Crosby, Stamkos, Getzlaf- Duchene is right on the edge, MacK should be here when his contract runs out)- 7+ Mil
The stars (Sharp, Steen, Benn- RoR. Lando and Staz are right on the edge)- 6 to 7 Mil
Legit well rounded Top 6 players that are more of the complimentary type (Ladd, Marchand, Kunitz- Staz is closer to this than a "star")- 5 to 6 Mil
Scoring top 6 players (Gallagher, Semin- PaP)- 4 to 5 Mil
Versatile depth guys who can fill in on the top (Shaw, Niederreiter- McGinn)- 2 to 4 Mil
Bottom 6 players- less than 2 mil.

 

[Bender]

I'm against bringing Kesler in, but I completely agree with everything you say there.

The reason I'm against it, is because Kesler will be expensive (in a trade), and the Avs have only so many assets they can part with in trades this offseason. If they blow their best tradeable assets (which they likely would have to to acquire Kesler), they won't have said assets to go improve the defense.

The Avs need improved defense first and foremost, even if Stastny leaves (which I think he will). IMO.

Completely agree. As others have said, you're better off over-paying Stastny and looking at the portion of the contract that you'd consider is overpayment as a bad contract that a good 80% of the teams in the league also have (Avs really don't have one) then to give up a bunch of assets to replace a guy like Stastny.

So : Stastny total: $6.75M = $5M you're happy to pay him + $1.75M you're not thrilled with paying him but better off then trading away a good amount of depth just to replace him, no?

I think you'd have to look at it this way : McGinn+Siemens+1st Round pick >>>>> $1.75M per year long-term

That's my take on it but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they let him walk and fill other needs. I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if they signed him, traded O'Reilly and signed Radulov. I'm kind of expecting something crazy like that.