Post-Game Talk (GBU): I'm Having Troble sorting something out

[RobertR]

G: Tank on?

B: Missed the game.

U: 3 day break now.

 

[jBuds]

Foligno can be a lazy player who takes terrible penalties and can't win a puck battle to save his life because he shouldn't be on the 3rd line. Okay gotcha.

I am the king of the Philleanough bashers. His nonchalance drives me crazy.

But stupid penalties? That's a bit ... Out there

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

We could've had two or three tonight. Svedberg was giving rebounds and we had no one in front.

 

[BloFan4Life]

Nolan isn't going to last the season if he doesn't change his ways.

I can't remember a Nolan team that didn't have trouble scoring goals. This is nothing new. He is just a terrible coach and doesn't belong in the NHL, which 29 teams agreed with.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Solid confirmation bias you've got there. I suppose our management is just too good to fall into the trap that teams like the Islanders, Florida, and Edmonton have. And none of those teams - at their worst - have been as bad as this and last year's version of the Sabres. They won 14 games without the aid of the shootout last year. FOURTEEN! And they sure look like they'll win less this year.

Well, yeah. Our management is better than the Oilers and the Panthers and Garth Snow. I shouldn't have to be the one telling you this. Easily some of the worst front offices in the league.

None of these teams have added as many picks as us
None of these teams have stockpiled prospects like us
None of these teams have good drafting, the sabres have always been good at drafting and so has Murray
None of these teams have an owner like TPegs

So yeah, our management is smarter than the Oilers,Panthers and Isles. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

 

[truthbluth]

Well, yeah. Our management is better than the Oilers and the Panthers and Garth Snow. I shouldn't have to be the one telling you this. Easily some of the worst front offices in the league.

None of these teams have added as many picks as us
None of these teams have stockpiled prospects like us
None of these teams have good drafting, the sabres have always been good at drafting and so has Murray
None of these teams have an owner like TPegs

So yeah, our management is smarter than the Oilers,Panthers and Isles. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but you have to admit that there are quite a few assumptions in the above statement.

The Oilers did compile quite a few draft picks actually. They just did not have tremendous success. And I disagree with the notion that the Sabres have been good at drafting. I would even go so far as to make the argument that the reason the Sabres weren't able to survive losing Drury/Briere/Campbell is that the best player that they took between 2005-2007 was probably Mike Weber. Those three years stand out to me. If you were to roll 2004 into that, Drew Stafford is the only player that stands out. Maybe Sekera (who they should not have traded).

Now, you can also make the argument that Golisano gutted the scouting department which directly caused those bad drafts. Certainly in contrast, from 98-2003, the Sabres drafted Ales Kotalik, Dmitry Kalinin, Ryan Miller, Paul Gaustad, Jason Pominvile, Derek Roy, Dan Paille, Clark MacArthur, Thomas Vanek and Keith Ballard (who became Steve Reinprecht, who became Chris Drury).

The next few drafts once looked promising, but 2008-2011 are turning out pretty bad too. Myers and Ennis were good picks, but 2008 was so loaded with talent at the top, it was pretty hard to miss. Kassian and Foligno look like good picks (McNabb may never be good), and Pysyk looks good. Their late (3-7) picks in those drafts have mostly sucked. And 2011 was a ridiculously deep year. It's abominable that the Sabres did so poorly (seemingly) in it.

Now, from 2012 on, it really does look like they've done fairly well. But it's way too early to cash checks. And if they did do well, we won't know for (on average) five years after the draft. So I think the Sabres will begin to reap the rewords of good/voluminous drafting in 2017. Which isn't that far out of the Islanders timeline (assuming this year so far isn't a mirage), and gives the Oilers another year (They first began stockpiling picks and drafting very high in 2010) before we call this rebuild a bust (their last one obviously was, though Kevin Lowe basically decided, 'hey we're close,' and started hemorrhaging draft picks and prospects for two years right in the middle of it).

As to the Panthers, I don't really know what's going on there except that they obviously decided to change gears with Dale Tallon came on board after Jacques Martin drafted/traded them into oblivion. They still could pull it together, and they are probably in better shape than the Oilers are right now.

5 years. Hell, Chicago's first top 5 pick in their rebuild (Cam Barker) was 2004. They didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

 

[gallagt01]

I find it funny that people are emotionally attached to the team this season. I'll watch every game, but I really don't care much how the Sabres play/if they win or lose. Losses are expected, wins are a pleasant surprise.

Watch it for Girgensons and Risto and stop getting bent out of shape that a terrible team was beaten by a good one.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I find it funny that people are emotionally attached to the team this season. I'll watch every game, but I really don't care much how the Sabres play/if they win or lose. Losses are expected, wins are a pleasant surprise.

Watch it for Girgensons and Risto and stop getting bent out of shape that a terrible team was beaten by a good one.

Pretty much this. The only thing that will worry me is if this season's failings involve future core players. As long as the rooks look ok/good, there's nothing to worry about.

 

[ZeroPT*]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but you have to admit that there are quite a few assumptions in the above statement.

The Oilers did compile quite a few draft picks actually. They just did not have tremendous success. And I disagree with the notion that the Sabres have been good at drafting. I would even go so far as to make the argument that the reason the Sabres weren't able to survive losing Drury/Briere/Campbell is that the best player that they took between 2005-2007 was probably Mike Weber. Those three years stand out to me. If you were to roll 2004 into that, Drew Stafford is the only player that stands out. Maybe Sekera (who they should not have traded).

The Oilers never made the trades that the sabres did. They held on to Horcoff and Hemsky when they should have traded them. If you assume the rebuild truly started in 2009, they never stockpiled the picks Buffalo had.
The Isles had bad developing and a cheep owner. The Panthers too.

That period was a sour patch in sabres drafting. IIRC, they had to make cuts and they decided to go to video scouting over live scouts. That completely ****ed them over. Generally though, they have been good at drafting. Considering that Pommers,Vanek,Miller,Stafford,etc.. were all sabres picks. Add that wherever Murray has been that team have been good at drafting. Like ottawa and Anaheim especially.

Now, you can also make the argument that Golisano gutted the scouting department which directly caused those bad drafts. Certainly in contrast, from 98-2003, the Sabres drafted Ales Kotalik, Dmitry Kalinin, Ryan Miller, Paul Gaustad, Jason Pominvile, Derek Roy, Dan Paille, Clark MacArthur, Thomas Vanek and Keith Ballard (who became Steve Reinprecht, who became Chris Drury).

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

The next few drafts once looked promising, but 2008-2011 are turning out pretty bad too. Myers and Ennis were good picks, but 2008 was so loaded with talent at the top, it was pretty hard to miss. Kassian and Foligno look like good picks (McNabb may never be good), and Pysyk looks good. Their late (3-7) picks in those drafts have mostly sucked. And 2011 was a ridiculously deep year. It's abominable that the Sabres did so poorly (seemingly) in it.

I'd say it's too early. Ennis and Myers were good picks. Kassian was a good pick too, he just got traded. Foligno is a good pick for where he was drafted. So was McNabb. Armia and Pysyk are promising. It was a good period I'd say.

Now, from 2012 on, it really does look like they've done fairly well. But it's way too early to cash checks. And if they did do well, we won't know for (on average) five years after the draft. So I think the Sabres will begin to reap the rewords of good/voluminous drafting in 2017. Which isn't that far out of the Islanders timeline (assuming this year so far isn't a mirage), and gives the Oilers another year (They first began stockpiling picks and drafting very high in 2010) before we call this rebuild a bust (their last one obviously was, though Kevin Lowe basically decided, 'hey we're close,' and started hemorrhaging draft picks and prospects for two years right in the middle of it).

Agreed.

As to the Panthers, I don't really know what's going on there except that they obviously decided to change gears with Dale Tallon came on board after Jacques Martin drafted/traded them into oblivion. They still could pull it together, and they are probably in better shape than the Oilers are right now.

The Panthers can't develop talent. Huberdeau is looking bad, Gudbranson too. it's way too early for Barkov and Ekblad but that team is not good at developping. Remember how highly touted Markstrom was?

5 years. Hell, Chicago's first top 5 pick in their rebuild (Cam Barker) was 2004. They didn't make the playoffs until 08-09.

I don' think looking at the first top pick is the way to look at it. I'd say the best way to look at it is when the front office announced the suffering. So the Pominville deal.

2013-Ristolainen
2014-Reinhart
2015-...

Three years of high picks
1 transitional year
we should be in contention for the playoffs after that.

Look at LA. They got hickey,Doughty and Schenn. They made the post season the year after and for 2 years they were a bottom playoff seed. Then in 2012 they won the cup and the rest is history. So if we were to follow that timeline, the sabres would have Risto,Reinhart, top 5 pick in 2015, and then they would make trades to try and push into the playoffs. 2-3 years of playoff appearances and then the prospects start taking over and boom. Contenders .

 

[start winnin]

Welp how did we look boys

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Solid confirmation bias you've got there. I suppose our management is just too good to fall into the trap that teams like the Islanders, Florida, and Edmonton have. And none of those teams - at their worst - have been as bad as this and last year's version of the Sabres. They won 14 games without the aid of the shootout last year. FOURTEEN! And they sure look like they'll win less this year.

Well, isn't listing those teams essentially confirmation bias just in the other direction?

Not every rebuilding team is gonna come out the other side like Pittsburgh, but not every rebuilding team is gonna stay mired in the muck like Edmonton.

 

[Bps21*]

And by now you should have a feeling about how the Sabres are approaching their rebuild. You can weigh in what you think of Ristolainen, Girgensons, Grigorenko, Zadorov, Pysyk, Armia the glut of non first rounders like Compher, Fasching, Baptiste, Bailey, Lemieux, McCabe and all...and use that to decide which way you think the Sabres are trending. The Edmonton route where they miss on everyone not taken first overall? Or a solid base that when added to a Reinhart and a McEichel can either become part of a new core or packaged for more proven older players.