If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

[authentic]

Coming from the guy with the 3rd most posts in the last topic. But yeah you guys keep clinging desperately to "WELL BETWEEN THE BLUELINES THOUGH. THAT'S HOW HOCKEY WORKS, THE NEUTRAL ZONE, I SWEAR".

That's only 2 seconds worth of skating. That guarantees he was as fast as McDavid from end to end, around the rink, he had better edgework, agility, so on and so forth, they just proved it.

 

[jgatie]

That's only 2 seconds worth of skating. That guarantees he was as fast as McDavid from end to end, around the rink, he had better edgework, agility, so on and so forth, they just proved it.

More than you have proved in your posts.

 

[CartographerNo611]

Bobby Orr playing today would be great. Easily 170 points with todays training and equipment. I would pity Burns and Karlsson though as Orr would make them look like slightly above average 1st pairing D-man.

 

[authentic]

You said 8 out of 12, which would automatically have to include at least two original six teams! Maybe you should have done that math before making yourself look foolish.

Whatever the point still stands, 50% of the league was utter crap. He probably wouldn't have put up the numbers he did if the league didn't expand. The O6 era atleast has somewhat of an argument for the same amount of talent (and note that's talent, meaning the pool of talent and parity of the league, not skill level which was still considerably worse) being compressed into those 6 teams as the 30 today, but not the NHL of the 70s. The parity was horrible, and star players offensive totals went way up because of it.

 

[authentic]

More than you have proved in your posts.

I'm arguing with people who don't believe the game has significantly improved since the 70s, what would you accept as proof? Do I need to post every single game online from that era or what?

 

[Knave]

I'm arguing with people who don't believe the game has significantly improved since the 70s, what would you accept as proof? Do I need to post every single game online from that era or what?

Apparently you just need to post 2 videos and have people deliberately ignore the context of the videos. Proof. Irrefutable proof.

 

[Benneguin]

After 43 pages, I feel we need a spinoff thread. Is 1st page McDavid as good or better than 43rd page McDavid?

 

[CartographerNo611]

After 43 pages, I feel we need a spinoff thread. Is 1st page McDavid as good or better than 43rd page McDavid?

Mcdavids endurance wouldnt get him past page 33.

 

[jgatie]

I'm arguing with people who don't believe the game has significantly improved since the 70s, what would you accept as proof? Do I need to post every single game online from that era or what?

That's opinion, you just state it as fact. Your other "facts" are easily provable, i.e. less talent pool - supply the numbers or stop saying it.

 

[authentic]

After 43 pages, I feel we need a spinoff thread. Is 1st page McDavid as good or better than 43rd page McDavid?

42 pages is a lot of reading to do for 1st page McDavid. 43rd page McDavid could handle it though, but that's an entirely different McDavid.

 

[jgatie]

Whatever the point still stands, 50% of the league was utter crap. He probably wouldn't have put up the numbers he did if the league didn't expand. The O6 era atleast has somewhat of an argument for the same amount of talent (and note that's talent, meaning the pool of talent and parity of the league, not skill level which was still considerably worse) being compressed into those 6 teams as the 30 today, but not the NHL of the 70s. The parity was horrible, and star players offensive totals went way up because of it.

One of those "crap" teams won the Stanley Cup 3 seasons later, against Orr's Bruins. They had a HOF star in 1970 too. In 1970, the O6 Red Wings with 3 hall of famers came in last place in the division behind a couple of those "crap teams. Keep digging.

 

[authentic]

One of those "crap" teams won the Stanley Cup 3 seasons later, against Orr's Bruins. They had a HOF star in 1970 too. Keep digging.

Keep believing the NHL of the 70s was as good as today.

 

[jgatie]

Keep believing the NHL of the 70s was as good as today.

Never said that, so I would appreciate you not implying it. I'm just proving your broad brush statements don't hold up under scrutiny.

 

[Los Patos de Anaheim]

This causes millennials hockey fans to recoil in horror, Ã* la old vampire movies when garlic appeared...

Old people are not allowed to be on the internet

 

[Los Patos de Anaheim]

Bobby Orr was not as fast as anyone in the NHL today. Where is the proof of Orr's timed speed from blueline to other blueline?

 

[Ducks in a row]

Modern players are super human compared to Orr so Orr would be lucky make it in the AHL

Orr had the physical ability the skill the hockey smarts to be able to make it in the modern NHL. Give him a off-season to get used to the new equipment and learn the rule changes and see some video of modern NHL games and I am sure he would make it in the NHL and do well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1967 Expansion Teams

So that would be a "No" to the request for any real numbers to back up your wild assertions? Seems to be a pattern with you.

By the way, in 1970:

Montreal: 5 Hall of famers
Boston: 4
NYR: 5
Chicago: 3
Toronto: 2 HOF goalies!
Detroit: 3

That's six out of 12 that not only had more than one star, they had more than one hall of famer. Like to try again?

Continuing with the six 1967 expansion teams:

HHOFers as players:

St.Louis - 2
Philadelphia - 2
Minnesota-2
Oakland - 1
LA - 1
Pittsburgh - 0

 

[danincanada]

That's the Soviet Union, not the NHL. Even combining the two it doesn't nearly add up to the NHL and KHL combined of this era.

Check his link again. There's no mention of 2,000,000 registered soviet players anywhere, it just references the numbers of today. It's a claim I remember someone making in the history section years ago but it's not realistic. I do think the pool has shrunk in Russia since the Soviet empire days but it's not as large a decrease as the increase we've seen in the US over the same span. Anyways, in the 70s the Soviets weren't in the NHL anyways so it's kind of a moot point.

And posters pretending that people believe current players are bionic superheroes should remember that some pretend Orr was exactly that. He was definitely amazing in his time but the gap would be narrowed greatly if he played today. Just watch how easy it was for him to skate around players; not happening that easily in today's NHL. That doesn't mean he wouldn't still be the best player in the world today if given all the same advantages and training either because he was an extremely dominant athlete and injuries stopped what could have been because there was more to come.

 

[Benneguin]

Modern players are super human compared to Orr so Orr would be lucky make it in the AHL

Orr had the physical ability the skill the hockey smarts to be able to make it in the modern NHL. Give him a off-season to get used to the new equipment and learn the rule changes and see some video of modern NHL games and I am sure he would make it in the NHL and do well.

Surely you photoshopped RNH to look like a ten year old boy.

 

[overpass]

I can concede that the NHL of the 1970s wasn't as good as the NHL of today. The NHL was at a low point in the 1970. Massive expansion led to too many weak organizations with that were unable to develop talent. The old affiliated junior system was broken up, and the junior teams were now independently owned and trying to draw fans instead of developing players. There were still great players and a handful of great organizations, but the system was a bit of a mess.

So let's back up to the point I made in the last thread. Bobby Orr entered the NHL in 1966-67 -- the last year of the Original Six. All 6 teams were established organizations full of players developed in their affiliated junior teams, with wide talent scouting networks all over Canada. Orr came along right at the end of that system, but the NHL he entered was still very much an NHL created under that system. All six teams were very definitely playing structured, system hockey. Every player had to buy into the system if they wanted to make the league.

We've seen the post earlier about the relatively low fitness requirements for players at Leafs camp. Fair enough, the minimum requirements weren't very high. But you also need to consider that players were on one year contracts back then and had zero job security. The minor leagues were loaded with talent looking for a shot at the NHL. Many very good, even HHOF players came to camp and played their careers in fear that they would lose their jobs. I don't think many players were playing their way into shape the way they would a decade later in the 70s.

Again, Bobby Orr entered this Original Six league in 1966-67 at age 18, straight out of major junior, which was very unusual. Everyone had to serve an apprenticeship in the minor leagues before making the NHL back then. How unusual was this? Here's the list of the top 18 year old point scorers in the NHL during the full Original Six era.

1. Bobby Orr, 1966-67, 41 points.
2. Gordie Howe, 1946-47, 22 points
3. Dave Creighton, 1948-49, 4 points.
4. Larry Hillman, 1955-56, 3 points.

So Bobby Orr was the first 18 year old to play significant time in the NHL in 10 years, and the first to skate a regular shift in a full season in 20 years. He and Gordie Howe were the only two 18 year olds to play regularly. You basically had to be a Mount Rushmore talent to stick at age 18 in that league.

And Orr did a lot more than stick in the league. He led all defenceman in scoring with 41 points at age 18. After the season, Harry Howell won the Norris trophy. Howell said he was happy to win it because he knew he wouldn't win another now that Bobby Orr was in the league. He was right, of course. Orr won the next 8 Norris trophies and would never again play a full season without winning the trophy.

Talent, skill, and ability like Orr had plays anywhere. Any time, any place. Sure, he beat up on some weak expansion teams. He also beat up on some great NHL teams. Take a look at his stats and the teams he faced in the 1970 and the 1972 playoffs. Even with one leg at the end of his career he was the best player in the Canada Cup. They only thing that could ever stop Orr was his own knees. I think he'd figure out today's NHL and figure it out fast.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

Modern players are super human compared to Orr so Orr would be lucky make it in the AHL

Orr had the physical ability the skill the hockey smarts to be able to make it in the modern NHL. Give him a off-season to get used to the new equipment and learn the rule changes and see some video of modern NHL games and I am sure he would make it in the NHL and do well.

Love seeing that beauty Gennies jersey, and having a replica one in my closet.

Orr would be a beast...simply the best player to play the game, in my mind.
There will never be another Gretzky; but the gap is larger when trying to find the next Orr. Won't happen...no Dman has or will ever be anywhere near close

 

[jgatie]

Bobby Orr was not as fast as anyone in the NHL today. Where is the proof of Orr's timed speed from blueline to other blueline?

Seen the last thread.

 

[pvr]

Looking back at generational talents in each era 60s and beyond, we can see that guys like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid are all extremely talented players. If they were born in this era and raised with modern equipment and training they'd be elite talent. But the problem is that they weren't raised in this era. Modern generational talent is simply more skilled and physically fit than that of the past. If Orr took a time machine, skillwise he'd be about on par with Midget AAA players.

What fitness standard, specifically, would have Orr playing in the AHL?

AHL? This poster said midget AAA!!

They need to be reminded of this post from the first thread, post 854:

Absolutely. I posted this elsewhere, but it is even more pertinent here:

Anyone doubting the talent and skill of the Orr era players should watch the Bruins Alumni vs a great team. My brother played Division 1 college and played for a statewide police team that competed in the Police/Fire Olympics and won a gold and a silver. Most on the team were ex college players, and a couple played IHL. About 15 years ago, they played against the Orr era Bruins Alumni, all in their 50s and 60s, including Johnny Bucyk who was close to 70. My brother was the oldest on his team at 42, the majority were in their 20s.

The Bruins Alum took it easy on them until some idiot decided to cross check Gary Doak. After that, the scoreboard stopped putting up goals when it was 10-2 Bruins, in the early second period. I'm pretty sure the Chief scored 6, while skating laps around guys 40 years younger than him.

 

[authentic]

I can concede that the NHL of the 1970s wasn't as good as the NHL of today. The NHL was at a low point in the 1970. Massive expansion led to too many weak organizations with that were unable to develop talent. The old affiliated junior system was broken up, and the junior teams were now independently owned and trying to draw fans instead of developing players. There were still great players and a handful of great organizations, but the system was a bit of a mess.

So let's back up to the point I made in the last thread. Bobby Orr entered the NHL in 1966-67 -- the last year of the Original Six. All 6 teams were established organizations full of players developed in their affiliated junior teams, with wide talent scouting networks all over Canada. Orr came along right at the end of that system, but the NHL he entered was still very much an NHL created under that system. All six teams were very definitely playing structured, system hockey. Every player had to buy into the system if they wanted to make the league.

We've seen the post earlier about the relatively low fitness requirements for players at Leafs camp. Fair enough, the minimum requirements weren't very high. But you also need to consider that players were on one year contracts back then and had zero job security. The minor leagues were loaded with talent looking for a shot at the NHL. Many very good, even HHOF players came to camp and played their careers in fear that they would lose their jobs. I don't think many players were playing their way into shape the way they would a decade later in the 70s.

Again, Bobby Orr entered this Original Six league in 1966-67 at age 18, straight out of major junior, which was very unusual. Everyone had to serve an apprenticeship in the minor leagues before making the NHL back then. How unusual was this? Here's the list of the top 18 year old point scorers in the NHL during the full Original Six era.

1. Bobby Orr, 1966-67, 41 points.
2. Gordie Howe, 1946-47, 22 points
3. Dave Creighton, 1948-49, 4 points.
4. Larry Hillman, 1955-56, 3 points.

So Bobby Orr was the first 18 year old to play significant time in the NHL in 10 years, and the first to skate a regular shift in a full season in 20 years. He and Gordie Howe were the only two 18 year olds to play regularly. You basically had to be a Mount Rushmore talent to stick at age 18 in that league.

And Orr did a lot more than stick in the league. He led all defenceman in scoring with 41 points at age 18. After the season, Harry Howell won the Norris trophy. Howell said he was happy to win it because he knew he wouldn't win another now that Bobby Orr was in the league. He was right, of course. Orr won the next 8 Norris trophies and would never again play a full season without winning the trophy.

Talent, skill, and ability like Orr had plays anywhere. Any time, any place. Sure, he beat up on some weak expansion teams. He also beat up on some great NHL teams. Take a look at his stats and the teams he faced in the 1970 and the 1972 playoffs. Even with one leg at the end of his career he was the best player in the Canada Cup. They only thing that could ever stop Orr was his own knees. I think he'd figure out today's NHL and figure it out fast.

You know what, I don't agree with your conclusion, but I do love your posts, and I'm not being sarcastic btw.

 

[authentic]

It is interesting to me, overpass, that you voted in the poll I created that the best teams in the 1970s could compete with the best teams today. Do you not believe that the goaltending advantage alone, even if the older goalies were to wear today's equipment, would be too big in favour of today's teams? They would have to learn a whole different style of goaltending and get used to facing much quicker, harder and accurate shots on average. I just don't really see how a poster such as yourself could truly believe this.