If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

[FoxyClean]

With solely his 60s training and playstyle, how would he do on next year's Bruins, in a vastly different 2017 league?

With the original thread maxing out still many interesting and contentious points being discussed, I figured a part 2 would be desired.

Click to read more...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Participation Numbers

2017 participation numbers from Russia:

http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/countries/russia/

Just over 100,000. Early 1970s, Soviet Union topped 2,000,000. Major drop in the 95% range.

Canada and the USA are holding their own but it is more of a tribute to improved record keepng - need for sponsorship money, plus girls hockey being included whereas in previous generations it was not.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Backhand

In the previous life of this thread a rebuttal was made about the backhand pass being replaced by the ability to make a half turn forehand pass.

Always amazed by this reasoning.

First it completely ignores two modern hockey realities. The move to using "handedness" to position defencemen. RHS plays RD, LHS plays LD. Yes coaches flip them in the offensive zone, especially on the PP but in the defensive zone you do not want your defencemen taking longer to play the puck on the forehand by making the turn while facing the stands and getting blasted by a checking forward. Concussions are a concern.

Likewise for forwards. Yes they can turn and make a a forehand pass but again doing so they reduce their ability to see the ice, inviting hits from the newly created blindspot. Again concussions are a consequence and a concern.

As for the passing lane argument, rather incredible. With both options forehand and backhand pass, the puck carrier can attack two passing lanes, defensive player has more doubts about which lane is being attacked, rather hard to defend both. Similar to boxing. Doubt that a boxer with the ability to punch with only one arm would be very effective or threatening.

 

[Mbraunm]

2017 participation numbers from Russia:

http://www.iihf.com/iihf-home/countries/russia/

Just over 100,000. Early 1970s, Soviet Union topped 2,000,000. Major drop in the 95% range.

Canada and the USA are holding their own but it is more of a tribute to improved record keepng - need for sponsorship money, plus girls hockey being included whereas in previous generations it was not.

Holy !$&@#. That is an incredible, yet very sad drop in the talent pool in Russia. Very sad as it represents a dramatic decrease in quality of living. Middle class families in Canada do not enroll in hockey like they used to either, but not that significantly. Regardless, I believe that there just isn't as much talent being fed into the NHL compared to the 70s, 80s and 90s. Not only are there far more teams in the league, there are far less millenials born than baby boomers. On top of that, significantly less millennial families can afford to enroll in comparison to previous generations. That being stated, compared to the 1960s, there is 45% less Canadian players in the league and a subsequent increase
in international talent in the NHL. I just highly doubt that this comes close to compensating for the worldwide drop in birth rates and decreasing proportion of enrolment in minor hockey programs.

 

[ottawa]

He'd get destroyed. Players today are much stronger and better trained, skill alone isn't enough, he'd need to be on par with the fitness expectations of making the NHL today.

He might do well in the AHL.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Percentages

Holy !$&@#. That is an incredible, yet very sad drop in the talent pool in Russia. Very sad as it represents a dramatic decrease in quality of living. Middle class families in Canada do not enroll in hockey like they used to either, but not that significantly. Regardless, I believe that there just isn't as much talent being fed into the NHL compared to the 70s, 80s and 90s. Not only are there far more teams in the league, there are far less millenials born than baby boomers. On top of that, significantly less millennial families can afford to enroll in comparison to previous generations. That being stated, compared to the 1960s, there is 45% less Canadian players in the league and a subsequent increase
in international talent in the NHL. I just highly doubt that this comes close to compensating for the worldwide drop in birth rates and decreasing proportion of enrolment in minor hockey programs.

Be careful with percentages. In terms of raw numbers Canada is still producing more NHL players today than in the 1970s, roughly 450 vs just over 300.

Also Canada is producing a greater number of elite athletes - basketball, football, baseball, soccer, Olympic sports, boxing, combat sports,golf. This impacts the hockey talent pool where previously talented athletes opted for hockey.

Another trend in the last ten years is young Russians - start of high school coming over to study and play hockey at Canadian private schools. Likewise from other European nations.

 

[Laineux]

I've heard so many Finnish analysts state how much ice hockey has evolved - treating the evolution of hockey as an obvious, undeniable fact -, that it's strange to see so many people deny it.

The continuous evolution of hockey is an accepted fact in Finnish hockey discourse. When you combine that with what I see with my own eyes, it's going to be very hard to sway me to think otherwise.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Finnish Hockey

I've heard so many Finnish analysts state how much ice hockey has evolved - treating the evolution of hockey as an obvious, undeniable fact -, that it's strange to see so many people deny it.

The continuous evolution of hockey is an accepted fact in Finnish hockey discourse. When you combine that with what I see with my own eyes, it's going to be very hard to sway me to think otherwise.

Compared to where Finnish hockey was in the O6 era and where it is today but not compared to where hockey was in other parts of the world during the O6 era.

 

[Knave]

People can deny reality all they want. Anyone who actually believes Orr would be just as dominant will be laughed at.

Even if the changes to the game were as minuscule as these people want you to believe - minor changes have the largest impact among the elite athletes of any sport. Apparently not true - just for hockey - if you believe some people on here.

 

[authentic]

Compared to where Finnish hockey was in the O6 era and where it is today but not compared to where hockey was in other parts of the world during the O6 era.

Pretty sure North American analysts say the same thing. In regards to your registration numbers, I would say including all the talent around the world in the NHL is from a larger pool than the 60s and 70s, still a fair bit more than 80s, and 90s I'm not too sure, probably roughly the same. Do any of your studies include how many more players from other countries are in the league today? I know Czechs and Russians are less today, plus the KHL takes some talent away, but there are more from Finland, Sweden still produces lots of quality talent, as well as the US and Canada like you mentioned. I think there are more players today from other European countries though. Even the worst teams in the NHL today clearly have a lot of talent, there are just so many more players from around the world today and it's odd to try to state the 60s and 70s was on par with today for overall talent, half the teams in the 70s were jokes after expansion, and the WHA was even worse for the most part.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That being stated, compared to the 1960s, there is 45% less Canadian players in the league and a subsequent increase
in international talent in the NHL. I just highly doubt that this comes close to compensating for the worldwide drop in birth rates and decreasing proportion of enrolment in minor hockey programs.

This is true -- I think we can say definitively that there is more hockey talent running around today than in the pre-Boomer, pre-Euro era -- but you also have to keep in mind that there were only 6 teams.

So what talent there was, was concentrated into 80% fewer rosters and the rosters themselves were smaller.

Which brings us right back to, it's really not clear that we haven't seen a DEcrease in the amount of natural talent in any given NHL game since that time. Regardless what the NHL's marketing department would have us believe.

 

[jgatie]

People can deny reality all they want. Anyone who actually believes Orr would be just as dominant will be laughed at.

Even if the changes to the game were as minuscule as these people want you to believe - minor changes have the largest impact among the elite athletes of any sport. Apparently not true - just for hockey - if you believe some people on here.

You still have to answer for the fact you spent page after page arguing about how slow Orr was, only to be humiliated.

 

[Los Patos de Anaheim]

Looking back at generational talents in each era 60s and beyond, we can see that guys like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid are all extremely talented players. If they were born in this era and raised with modern equipment and training they'd be elite talent. But the problem is that they weren't raised in this era. Modern generational talent is simply more skilled and physically fit than that of the past. If Orr took a time machine, skillwise he'd be about on par with Midget AAA players.

 

[authentic]

Looking back at generational talents in each era 60s and beyond, we can see that guys like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid are all extremely talented players. If they were born in this era and raised with modern equipment and training they'd be elite talent. But the problem is that they weren't raised in this era. Modern generational talent is simply more skilled and physically fit than that of the past. If Orr took a time machine, skillwise he'd be about on par with Midget AAA players.

How anyone cannot realize this or argue so adamantly against this is beyond me, but this is reality right here.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I See...

Pretty sure North American analysts say the same thing. In regards to your registration numbers, I would say including all the talent around the world in the NHL is from a larger pool than the 60s and 70s, still a fair bit more than 80s, and 90s I'm not too sure, probably roughly the same. Do any of your studies include how many more players from other countries are in the league today? I know Czechs and Russians are less today, plus the KHL takes some talent away, but there are more from Finland, Sweden still produces lots of quality talent, as well as the US and Canada like you mentioned. I think there are more players today from other European countries though. Even the worst teams in the NHL today clearly have a lot of talent, there are just so many more players from around the world today and it's odd to try to state the 60s and 70s was on par with today for overall talent, half the teams in the 70s were jokes after expansion, and the WHA was even worse for the most part.

I see... so you do not know where to find or generate such data.

First you are looking at world hockey as a one way street, Europeans coming to NA to play in professional leagues, some returning home with a few Canadians and American players going over to Europe to end their careers:

http://thehockeywriters.com/thws-massive-list-of-former-nhlers-playing-overseas/

The actual number of Canadians and Americans, who never played in the NHL, playing for European or Asian teams, post junior or university is far greater.

2016-17 Finnish NHL Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Goalies:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_goalie

Combined 37 Finnish Players but (22+4=26 could be consider regulars).

1992-93:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Only 10 skaters, no goalies. So Finland has grown its hockey program, but is not as prolific as Sweden.

Sweden

1992-92 Goalies(1):

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

2016-17 Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Goalies:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_goalie

Russia/USSR is down significantly since 1992-93, total 51 vs 25 in 2016-17.

You can check the other countries by backtracking the links.

 

[authentic]

I see... so you do not know where to find or generate such data.

First you are looking at world hockey as a one way street, Europeans coming to NA to play in professional leagues, some returning home with a few Canadians and American players going over to Europe to end their careers:

http://thehockeywriters.com/thws-massive-list-of-former-nhlers-playing-overseas/

The actual number of Canadians and Americans, who never played in the NHL, playing for European or Asian teams, post junior or university is far greater.

2016-17 Finnish NHL Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Goalies:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_goalie

Combined 37 Finnish Players but (22+4=26 could be consider regulars).

1992-93:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Only 10 skaters, no goalies. So Finland has grown its hockey program, but is not as prolific as Sweden.

Sweden

1992-92 Goalies(1):

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

2016-17 Skaters:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_played

Goalies:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=games_goalie

Russia/USSR is down significantly since 1992-93, total 51 vs 25 in 2016-17.

You can check the other countries by backtracking the links.

So none of that has to do with the 60s and 70s at all. Do you deny there was a lesser talent pool then?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Greater

So none of that has to do with the 60s and 70s at all. Do you deny there was a lesser talent pool then?

Pointed out the decreasing talent pool today.

Early 1970s Soviet Union had over 2,000,000, today barely tops 100,000. Data provided upthread.

1970s the Soviet Union had the equivalent of 3-5 club teams worth of NHL talent not today.

Obviously there was more talent in the 1970s. Distribution and concentration was different, talent tended to play regionally or nationally. Today there is less talent but it is distributed internationally.

 

[Sol]

How is this topic still alive?The same thread happens every year it seems.

 

[overpass]

He'd get destroyed. Players today are much stronger and better trained, skill alone isn't enough, he'd need to be on par with the fitness expectations of making the NHL today.

He might do well in the AHL.

Where are people getting the idea that Bobby Orr wasn't fit? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

 

[ottawa]

Where are people getting the idea that Bobby Orr wasn't fit? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

I'm not saying he wasn't fit. I'm saying fitness standards of the 70s and 40 years later are different.

Drop a player like Erik Karlsson into the 70s, he'd most likely be far and away the best defenseman. Drop Bobby Orr into the following season without any modern training and he'd be awful.

I'm not saying EK > Orr here, i'm just trying to explain how much I value modern training and fitness.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm not saying he wasn't fit. I'm saying fitness standards of the 70s and 40 years later are different.

What fitness standard, specifically, would have Orr playing in the AHL?

 

[overpass]

I'm not saying he wasn't fit. I'm saying fitness standards of the 70s and 40 years later are different.

But we're discussing an individual player here. What reason do you have to believe that Bobby Orr was just meeting the minimum standards of the day? The man played 30-40 minutes a game and had the puck half the time. Even if the competition of the 70s was a bit uneven, you have to be incredibly fit to do what he did. By all accounts he was incredibly fit.

Do you think he was less fit than, say, Phil Kessel is? Alex Ovechkin?

 

[Mbraunm]

Looking back at generational talents in each era 60s and beyond, we can see that guys like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemiuex, Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid are all extremely talented players. If they were born in this era and raised with modern equipment and training they'd be elite talent. But the problem is that they weren't raised in this era. Modern generational talent is simply more skilled and physically fit than that of the past. If Orr took a time machine, skillwise he'd be about on par with Midget AAA players.

Wow-it was already established through frame by frame analysis that Orr was at least as fast as McDavid in his old, 1970s weighted equipment and skates. I don't know of any AAA Midget (or current NHL player for that matter) who can skate as fast as McDavid (on old skates, heavy equipment) while possessing lethal simultaneous IQ, vision and edgework. Unbelievable...just wow!

 

[puckpilot]

Where are people getting the idea that Bobby Orr wasn't fit? I've never heard anything of the sort before.

Because they hear stories about some players being smokers and apply that to mean everyone smoked. They see one out of shape player from that era and apply that to mean all players from that era are slobs despite pictures clearly showing otherwise.

If you look at the modern era there were and are plenty of players who aren't fit despite the incentives, eg Kyle Wellwood, Dustin Penner. Then there are the players today who are substance abusers today and party machines, like Kassian, Richards, Stoll, and the list goes on in that category. And as for players not being smokers anymore.

Who's that 10 million dollar player with the three sticks of cancer in their mouth.

And here are a couple of star players I'm sure many recognise deciding to light it up, but not on the ice.

In addition smokers are rare in today's game but tobacco isn't. Many players like Bertuzzi, Ovechkin, Bozak and Byfuglien used and are using chewing tobacco according to the articles below. And to make it clear chewing tobacco causes cancer too.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/Hockeys-disgusting-little-habit-237547261.html
http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2012/02/29/heres-your-annotated-history-of-smoking-in-the-nhl/

So I guess the ubiquitous, bionically enhanced, fine tuned athlete of today is a myth.

Just like past eras there are players with good eating and fitness habits and there are players with bad eating and fitness habits in the league.

 

[authentic]

Pointed out the decreasing talent pool today.

Early 1970s Soviet Union had over 2,000,000, today barely tops 100,000. Data provided upthread.

1970s the Soviet Union had the equivalent of 3-5 club teams worth of NHL talent not today.

Obviously there was more talent in the 1970s. Distribution and concentration was different, talent tended to play regionally or nationally. Today there is less talent but it is distributed internationally.

That's the Soviet Union, not the NHL. Even combining the two it doesn't nearly add up to the NHL and KHL combined of this era.