If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

[jgatie]

I'm not saying he wasn't fit. I'm saying fitness standards of the 70s and 40 years later are different.

Drop a player like Erik Karlsson into the 70s, he'd most likely be far and away the best defenseman. Drop Bobby Orr into the following season without any modern training and he'd be awful.

I'm not saying EK > Orr here, i'm just trying to explain how much I value modern training and fitness.

Drop Karlsson in the 70s, he'd have to endure 2+ minute shifts, and a physicality he has never experienced before, playing on heavy tube skates with no support, with wooden sticks, stiff, full length gloves, and heavy felt padded equipment that soaks up water and sweat as the game goes on, till it feels like lead.

It goes both ways.

 

[BruinLVGA]

How anyone cannot realize this or argue so adamantly against this is beyond me, but this is reality right here.

Pictures, videos, video analysis, and all sorts of facts. To which you seem to reply only with your opinions and state them as facts. Do you see anything wrong with this? Nothing at all?

Because they hear stories about some players being smokers and apply that to mean everyone smoked. They see one out of shape player from that era and apply that to mean all players from that era are slobs despite pictures clearly showing otherwise.

If you look at the modern era there were and are plenty of players who aren't fit despite the incentives, eg Kyle Wellwood, Dustin Penner. Then there are the players today who are substance abusers today and party machines, like Kassian, Richards, Stoll, and the list goes on in that category. And as for players not being smokers anymore.

Who's that 10 million dollar player with the three sticks of cancer in their mouth.

And here are a couple of star players I'm sure many recognise deciding to light it up, but not on the ice.

In addition smokers are rare in today's game but tobacco isn't. Many players like Bertuzzi, Ovechkin, Bozak and Byfuglien used and are using chewing tobacco according to the articles below. And to make it clear chewing tobacco causes cancer too.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/Hockeys-disgusting-little-habit-237547261.html
http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2012/02/29/heres-your-annotated-history-of-smoking-in-the-nhl/

So I guess the ubiquitous, bionically enhanced, fine tuned athlete of today is a myth.

Just like past eras there are players with good eating and fitness habits and there are players with bad eating and fitness habits in the league.

It's pretty much known that Karlsson is a fan of snus.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Drop Karlsson in the 70s, he'd have to endure 2+ minute shifts, and a physicality he has never experienced before, playing on heavy tube skates with no support, with wooden sticks, stiff, full length gloves, and heavy felt padded equipment that soaks up water and sweat as the game goes on, till it feels like lead.

It goes both ways.

This causes millennials hockey fans to recoil in horror, à la old vampire movies when garlic appeared...

 

[jgatie]

That's the Soviet Union, not the NHL. Even combining the two is doesn't nearly add up to the NHL and KHL combined of this era.

So you say the pool is larger today? Bobby Orr started in the O6. Is your purported larger pool 5 times larger? 2.5 times larger? Because in order to justify your claims that the talent pool was less back then, those are the numbers you would need given 6 or 12 teams vs. 30 today.

Time for you to put up the numbers, or stop making claims you cannot prove.

 

[authentic]

Wow-it was already established through frame by frame analysis that Orr was at least as fast as McDavid in his old, 1970s weighted equipment and skates. I don't know of any AAA Midget (or current NHL player for that matter) who can skate as fast as McDavid (on old skates, heavy equipment) while possessing lethal simultaneous IQ, vision and edgework. Unbelievable...just wow!

No, it wasn't actually. McDavid wasn't close to reaching full speed yet at the time of crossing the first blue line, Bobby Orr had already been skating for a good while before he crossed the same point. If you think Bobby Orr in his old skates was as fast or as good a skater as McDavid is currently you have a warped perception of how good he actually was. Was he good enough that with todays skates, training, and healthy knees he would atleast be very comparable? Yes. As for him stepping into today's league there is far more to consider than just his skating, or even his other technical skills.

 

[jgatie]

No, it wasn't actually. McDavid wasn't close to reaching full speed yet at the time of crossing the first blue line, Bobby Orr had already been skating for a good while before he crossed the same point. If you think Bobby Orr in his old skates was as fast or as good a skater as McDavid is currently you have a warped perception of how good he actually was. Was he good enough that with todays skates, training, and healthy knees he would atleast be very comparable? Yes. As for him stepping into today's league there is far more to consider than just his skating, or even his other technical skills.

Bzzzzt! The poster also measured McDavid at a full head of steam in the fastest skater contest, without the puck, and he was a fractional bit faster than Orr with the puck.

Do try to keep up.

 

[authentic]

So you say the pool is larger today? Bobby Orr started in the O6. Is your purported larger pool 5 times larger? 2.5 times larger? Because in order to justify your claims that the talent pool was less back then, those are the numbers you would need given 6 or 12 teams vs. 30 today.

Time for you to put up the numbers, or stop making claims you cannot prove.

In that 12 team league, atleast 8 of them were jokes of teams with not a single star player. Not to mention half the good players on the talented teams still lost control of the puck unpressured in open ice numerous times per game and had trouble giving and receiving 10 foot passes more often than elite professionals should. Nearly every defenseman of that era had trouble skating backwards or maintaining any sort of gap control, defensive systems were largely non existent compared to today, and goalies fell on their backs or opened their five holes as wide as they could for their most common save, other than standing straight up deep in their net. Yes I believe that the talent pool is around 5 times larger today, no I don't care to go researching to prove it, classic games from that era as well as the players themselves tell me the game and it's players are much improved, and most of that improvement is in skill btw, with all this nonstop talk about fitness. We know Orr was fit, we know he could skate, stickhandle, shoot and pass well with that old equipment. The mental preperation and adjustment, catching up to 47 years of improvements, that would be the big thing here. Becoming a better player than Crosby who grew up, physically and mentally trained and fine tuned his body and skills to suit this era, all with the top notch natural talent, athleticism, and vision that Orr possessed, except Orr grew up fine tuning his game for the time he was brought up in.

Best case scenario IMO is Orr somehow manages to crack an NHL roster after 2-3 years of training in lower leagues, and somehow becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, but I would even doubt that. For him to be one of the elite today he would have had to be born much later than he was.

 

[authentic]

Bzzzzt! The poster also measured McDavid at a full head of steam in the fastest skater contest, without the puck, and he was a fractional bit faster than Orr with the puck.

Do try to keep up.

I think those old highlights are sped up to be honest. I have no way of proving that but I don't believe he was as fast as McDavid in those old skates. If he really was then that would be absolutely incredible though and I would actually like to believe that was the case, it's just hard to imagine.

 

[jgatie]

In that 12 team league, atleast 8 of them were jokes of teams with not a single star player. Not to mention half the good players on the talented teams still lost control of the puck unpressured in open ice numerous times per game and had trouble giving and receiving 10 foot passes more often than elite professionals should. Nearly every defenseman of that era had trouble skating backwards or maintaining any sort of gap control, defensive systems were largely non existent compared to today, and goalies fell on their backs or opened their five holes as wide as they could for their most common save, other than standing straight up deep in their net. Yes I believe that the talent pool is around 5 times larger today, no I don't care to go researching to prove it, classic games from that era as well as the players themselves tell me the game and it's players are much improved, and most of that improvement is in skill btw, with all this nonstop talk about fitness. We know Orr was fit, we know he could skate, stickhandle, shoot and pass well with that old equipment. The mental preperation and adjustment, catching up to 47 years of improvements, that would be the big thing here. Becoming a better player than Crosby who grew up, physically and mentally trained and fine tuned his body and skills to suit this era, all with the top notch natural talent, athleticism, and vision that Orr possessed, except Orr grew up fine tuning his game for the time he was brought up in.

Best case scenario IMO is Orr somehow manages to crack an NHL roster after 2-3 years of training in lower leagues, and somehow becomes a bottom pairing defenseman, but I would even doubt that. For him to be one of the elite today he would have had to be born much later than he was.

So that would be a "No" to the request for any real numbers to back up your wild assertions? Seems to be a pattern with you.

By the way, in 1970:

Montreal: 5 Hall of famers
Boston: 4
NYR: 5
Chicago: 3
Toronto: 2 HOF goalies!
Detroit: 3

That's six out of 12 that not only had more than one star, they had more than one hall of famer. Like to try again?

 

[jgatie]

I think those old highlights are sped up to be honest. I have no way of proving that but I don't believe he was as fast as McDavid in those old skates. If he really was then that would be absolutely incredible though and I would actually like to believe that was the case, it's just hard to imagine.

LOL. How did they speed up Orr and make everyone else slow?

 

[BraveCanadian]

It's like they completely forgot the first thread and went back to square one.. This is an amazing phenomena.. Try reading before posting things that were refuted 20 pages ago guys..

I literally can't believe that we're back at "today's players are bionic superheroes" for like the 5th time in these threads.

LOL. How did they speed up Orr and make everyone else slow?

Pffft, it is obviously a pro-Orr conspiracy.

 

[authentic]

LOL. How did they speed up Orr and make everyone else slow?

They didn't. I think clips themselves are a little choppy anyway so it appears faster, that includes everyone.

 

[jgatie]

They didn't. I think clips themselves are a little choppy anyway so it appears faster, that includes everyone.

You are the only one here saying that. Even the guys on your side have yielded to facts. You are an island unto yourself. Must be great to be able to convince oneself of being correct in the face of overwhelming facts. I'm impressed.

 

[authentic]

It's like they completely forgot the first thread and went back to square one.. This is an amazing phenomena.. Try reading before posting things that were refuted 20 pages ago guys..

I literally can't believe that we're back at "today's players are bionic superheroes" for like the 5th time in these threads.




Pffft, it is obviously a pro-Orr conspiracy.

What exactly has been refuted?

 

[jgatie]

What exactly has been refuted?

Well for one, your statement that 8 out of the 12 teams back then didn't have one star player. I noticed you didn't reply to that. So I guess we can expect you to repeat that nonsense 20 pages from now?

 

[BruinLVGA]

Well for one, your statement that 8 out of the 12 teams back then didn't have one star player. I noticed you didn't reply to that. So I guess we can expect you to repeat that nonsense 20 pages from now?

Ahahah... Well said. That "no stars" statement was torpedoed real quick.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So I guess we can expect you to repeat that nonsense 20 pages from now?

He already is repeating.. remember when he finally accepted that Orr actually could skate with today's bionic superheroes? Now we're back to questioning it again.

Don't forget from the previous thread:

It is interesting how this argument always goes because first the kids will claim that today's players are bionic superheroes because of nutrition and sports specific training etc. while players from bygone eras were apparently smoking a pack and downing a few shots each intermission.

Then when you point out that some pretty talented players today are hardly physical specimens (Ovechkin, beanpoles like Marner/Kane etc) they will then shift the argument to it doesn't matter that much for hockey and it is their talent and skill level that is better.

Once you point out that human beings haven't actually evolved, players now are actually slightly smaller than in the dead puck era, and that most of the difference you see is due to shift length, camera quality, lightweight equipment and ice surface quality.. they immediately revert back to step one where today's players are bionic superheroes. And round and round we go.

It is a constant moving of the goalposts to avoid admitting the fact that a great hockey player is a great hockey player. No matter when they happened to play.

 

[authentic]

So that would be a "No" to the request for any real numbers to back up your wild assertions? Seems to be a pattern with you.

By the way, in 1970:

Montreal: 5 Hall of famers
Boston: 4
NYR: 5
Chicago: 3
Toronto: 2 HOF goalies!
Detroit: 3

That's six out of 12 that not only had more than one star, they had more than one hall of famer. Like to try again?

Lol you literally just listed all the original 6 teams, I would hope they each had HOFers on their team only 3 years after expansion. And the rest of the teams were complete crap.

 

[BruinLVGA]

I think those old highlights are sped up to be honest. I have no way of proving that but I don't believe he was as fast as McDavid in those old skates. If he really was then that would be absolutely incredible though and I would actually like to believe that was the case, it's just hard to imagine.

Like that matters to you... Ahahah

PS: not surprised about this. Just your MO.

 

[authentic]

He already is repeating.. remember when he finally accepted that Orr actually could skate with today's bionic superheroes? Now we're back to questioning it again.

Don't forget from the previous thread:

Lol you have trouble with reading comprehension because I never doubted Orr could "skate" with todays players, there is far more to consider here than just his "skating", but not if you live in an alternate universe where the NHL has remained unchanged since the O6 era. I am doubting he was as fast as McDavid though, and I am doubting he would make the NHL if he came here straight from a time machine. Old folks on this board are only ones I've ever heard claim he would still be one of the best if transported to today, most realize that wouldn't even be true of Gretzky who peaked a decade later.

 

[authentic]

Like that matters to you... Ahahah

PS: not surprised about this. Just your MO.

The frames in those old videos are clearly choppy though, I'm not sure how anyone can't see that. 85highlander even says so himself.

https://www.youtube.com/user/85highlander

 

[Knave]

He already is repeating.. remember when he finally accepted that Orr actually could skate with today's bionic superheroes? Now we're back to questioning it again.

Don't forget from the previous thread:

It must be awesome to argue with a strawman you can always defeat.

 

[jgatie]

Lol you literally just listed all the original 6 teams, I would hope they each had HOFers on their team only 3 years after expansion. And the rest of the teams were complete crap.

You said 8 out of 12, which would automatically have to include at least two original six teams! Maybe you should have done that math before making yourself look foolish.

 

[Knave]

You still have to answer for the fact you spent page after page arguing about how slow Orr was, only to be humiliated.

Coming from the guy with the 3rd most posts in the last topic. But yeah you guys keep clinging desperately to "WELL BETWEEN THE BLUELINES THOUGH. THAT'S HOW HOCKEY WORKS, THE NEUTRAL ZONE, I SWEAR".

 

[jgatie]

Coming from the guy with the 3rd most posts in the last topic. But yeah you guys keep clinging desperately to "WELL BETWEEN THE BLUELINES THOUGH. THAT'S HOW HOCKEY WORKS, THE NEUTRAL ZONE, I SWEAR".

My, aren't we getting angry.