If Bob & Bread go - then what?

[blahblah]

The reason why the Jackets targeted Panarin in the first place was that they recognized the need for an elite, gamebreaking forward.

Sounds great with 20/20, but Chicago wanted Saad back and couldn't afford to keep both. This seemed to be driven a lot by Chicago.

 

[thebus88]

I don't thin you have to move Wennberg if you have 2 good wings flanking him. Say for example you could put him between Skinner & Stone. I think he becomes a 60 pt guy at a minimum. A lot different than being between Foligno & Bjorkstrand. In that scenario who cares if doesn't shoot that much?

Ahhh….."minimum", huh?

Right...just like what would happen if he could play in between Panarin and Atkinson...….. right?

Foligno/Bjorkstrand > Wennberg

 

[Crede777]

Sounds great with 20/20, but Chicago wanted Saad back and couldn't afford to keep both. This seemed to be driven a lot by Chicago.

When the trade went down both Jarmo and Tortorella said they felt it was necessary to have a "dynamic" forward like Panarin.

It only seems to be driven by Chicago because that's the point of view almost every outlet aside from the Dispatch and Arace/Portzline.

 

[KJ Dangler]

So far, I’m reading no other solutions/ visions.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Sounds great with 20/20, but Chicago wanted Saad back and couldn't afford to keep both. This seemed to be driven a lot by Chicago.

Chicago did want Saad back, but they also wanted the cot certainty.
I have no idea if they ever approached bread about extending (but entirely possible they knew he wanted to test market) and even if they didn't they knew he would likely be a $8-10M even at that point, and would have been tough for them to afford him with other contracts they have.

In my mind Chicago knew they were getting a lesser player. They did add a couple other pieces but it gave them a guy who had played well there and cost certainty.

 

[Old Guy]

Chicago did want Saad back, but they also wanted the cot certainty.
I have no idea if they ever approached bread about extending (but entirely possible they knew he wanted to test market) and even if they didn't they knew he would likely be a $8-10M even at that point, and would have been tough for them to afford him with other contracts they have.

In my mind Chicago knew they were getting a lesser player. They did add a couple other pieces but it gave them a guy who had played well there and cost certainty.

He had played 2 years of an original 4 year contract, so you are correct that Chicago knew he was going to want 8-10 million next.
You are not correct about approaching him to extend. Talks can only be held with a current player on your team when there are 365 days or less on their existing contract. Artemi had 2 years remaining when he got here. Saad had 4 years remaining (both players getting paid 6 million per year).

 

[blahblah]

When the trade went down both Jarmo and Tortorella said they felt it was necessary to have a "dynamic" forward like Panarin

What else were they going to say? Saad did actually score 56 goals in a couple of seasons with us.

I'm not saying your analysis in wrong, I'm saying that things might not have went down how you thought nor with the mindset you envisioned. It's quite possible that the CBJ really weren't looking at Panarin nor initiated the discussion. Everyone is generally looking for upgrades and looking for elite talent, no matter how much you have. I've always gotten the impression this fell into the CBJ's lap.

Panarin is a very good player, elite. He's also got some work to do as a player.

 

[Crede777]

I'm not saying your analysis in wrong, I'm saying that things might not have went down how you thought nor with the mindset you envisioned. It's quite possible that the CBJ really weren't looking at Panarin nor initiated the discussion. Everyone is generally looking for upgrades and looking for elite talent, no matter how much you have. I've always gotten the impression this fell into the CBJ's lap.

Panarin is a very good player, elite. He's also got some work to do as a player.

The trade may have come together quickly but that doesn't change the fact that the need for a franchise caliber forward existed or that the front office was aware of that need. The series against Pittsburgh hammered that notion home for them.

Of course Jarmo is going to say that he plans on building around defense and depth scoring because that was what was available. But as soon as he gets a chance, he ditches that depth for a top quality forward. Now, the Jackets have turned themselves into essentially a top-heavy team in the course of a season.

 

[blahblah]

The trade may have come together quickly but that doesn't change the fact that the need for a franchise caliber forward existed or that the front office was aware of that need. The series against Pittsburgh hammered that notion home for them.

I tend to think that is your opinion and may or may not be completely accurate. The Hawks when the opposite direction. Yes I'm aware of who they already have. I'm just saying you went from A-Z and I'm not sure the CBJ front office was destined for Z or if they were they might have taken a totally different route to get there. Not a big deal, but I'm not a fan conclusion jumping based on our limited data.

 

[Crede777]

I tend to think that is your opinion and may or may not be completely accurate. The Hawks when the opposite direction. Yes I'm aware of who they already have. I'm just saying you went from A-Z and I'm not sure the CBJ front office was destined for Z or if they were they might have taken a totally different route to get there. Not a big deal, but I'm not a fan conclusion jumping based on our limited data.

I mean, I'm basing my opinion on quotes from Jarmo and Tortorella which I think is the best data available. Secondarily, I think my stance is supported by opinions voiced by Portzline and Arace which, while less than ideal, is still better than blind speculation.

 

[blahblah]

I mean, I'm basing my opinion on quotes from Jarmo and Tortorella which I think is the best data available. Secondarily, I think my stance is supported by opinions voiced by Portzline and Arace which, while less than ideal, is still better than blind speculation.

I take all of that with a grain of salt. Front offices aren't inherently transparent and we tend to read things into comments. For example I'm sure their opinions on our forward situation was well formed long before any perceived lessons from the Pens in the playoffs. The addition didn't change the outcome of the Washington series.

Cheers.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Who cares how the Panarin / Saad trade went down , it did . Still waiting to hear ideas how to move forward . In my eyes , the only way we get an elite talent on offense will be to trade Werenski , or Jones , and we all know Jones is going nowhere .

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I take all of that with a grain of salt. Front offices aren't inherently transparent and we tend to read things into comments. For example I'm sure their opinions on our forward situation was well formed long before any perceived lessons from the Pens in the playoffs. The addition didn't change the outcome of the Washington series.

Cheers.

I find that quotes from front office personnel are only reliable if they support my pre-existing opinions. If they don’t, then I can easily decide to decide they’re playing fast and loose with the truth.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Also, this thread has gone whole-hog cattywampus. (I am in rural West Virginia this week...)

On topic — if Bobrovsky and Panarin both leave, the Jackets will play subsequent games without them.

 

[Crede777]

Also, this thread has gone whole-hog cattywampus. (I am in rural West Virginia this week...)

On topic — if Bobrovsky and Panarin both leave, the Jackets will play subsequent games without them.

Unless then they are playing against them. Then they will be playing games with them.

 

[EspenK]

If they both go and if the Jackets can't land one or two top UFA's (Stone, Duchene, Skinner) and a trade doesn't bring a talent to the top 6 then can you say rebuild?

I'd start by trying to trade Foligno & Dubi for picks or prospects (rationale being they don't want to go thru a rebuild and would be receptive to joining a contender.)

Trade Jenner and Milano for something.

Consider if Torts is really the guy you want leading a rebuild with a bunch of young guys. I'd say he isn't ideal.

Beef up the scouting so we don't blow draft choices.

Try to lose as much as possible without looking like you're tanking. (Me personally I'd tank and be proud off it. See Toronto for how to do it correctly).

Pray the second 20 years are better than the first.

 

[major major]

If they both go and if the Jackets can't land one or two top UFA's (Stone, Duchene, Skinner) and a trade doesn't bring a talent to the top 6 then can you say rebuild?

I'd start by trying to trade Foligno & Dubi for picks or prospects (rationale being they don't want to go thru a rebuild and would be receptive to joining a contender.)

Trade Jenner and Milano for something.

Consider if Torts is really the guy you want leading a rebuild with a bunch of young guys. I'd say he isn't ideal.

Beef up the scouting so we don't blow draft choices.

Try to lose as much as possible without looking like you're tanking. (Me personally I'd tank and be proud off it. See Toronto for how to do it correctly).

Pray the second 20 years are better than the first.

If you're going to tank, it isn't Dubinsky, Milano, and Jenner that you'll have to trade. It's Jones, Dubois, and Werenski - you know, the players that help you win games.

Now if that sounds crazy, we'll yes, I agree, a team with that group of young players shouldn't be tanking. Draft better not higher.

 

[CBJFan827]

Yeah, no. I don't think we need/should be tanking.

 

[JacketsDavid]

If you're going to tank, it isn't Dubinsky, Milano, and Jenner that you'll have to trade. It's Jones, Dubois, and Werenski - you know, the players that help you win games.

Now if that sounds crazy, we'll yes, I agree, a team with that group of young players shouldn't be tanking. Draft better not higher.

I would say to go along with this that we would just have to double down on the defense. Play boring hockey (while staying out of the box which is a challenge in todays NHL), prevent SOG, and hope we can find a good enough goalie (or two).

I don't see Stone or Duchene being a difference maker and I wouldn't want to pay a premium for either.

I guess bottom line if they leave my best bet for success is solidifying the bottom pairing of blue line, finding 2 quality goalies, and finding forwards who can play defensive hockey along with the offensive talent we have (and are developing). Play with speed (no slow grinders), but sound defensive hockey and hope to win a lot of 3-2 games.

I fully realize the past NHL champions score goals, but sometimes when everyone else is zigging, we may need to zag.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

He had played 2 years of an original 4 year contract, so you are correct that Chicago knew he was going to want 8-10 million next.
You are not correct about approaching him to extend. Talks can only be held with a current player on your team when there are 365 days or less on their existing contract. Artemi had 2 years remaining when he got here. Saad had 4 years remaining (both players getting paid 6 million per year).

He's never had more than a 2 year deal. At least in the NHL.

The idea that there are never preliminary talks between player reps and NHL teams prior to the time when official negotiating is allowed is, imo, naive.

 

[CBJFan827]

I don't see Stone or Duchene being a difference maker and I wouldn't want to pay a premium for either.

I thought the same thing even 6 months ago. Then I looked closer and I was very, very wrong. I'll let Luszcyszyn's season preview speak for it:

"Stone could be one of the most underrated players in the league thanks to the team he plays. There simply aren’t many right wingers better than him right now. He ranks eighth by GSVA and seventh by Corsica’s player ratings. By WAR, he ranks fourth of any player over the last three seasons at Evolving Hockey, but much lower by Corsica’s method.

Over the past three seasons, Stone ranks 28th in the league in points-per-game at 0.87, and fifth in relative Corsi at plus-6.2 per cent. The only player higher in both categories is Brad Marchand. There are only four others higher than 0.85 points per game and plus-four per cent relative Corsi: Sidney Crosby, Hall, Artemi Panarin and John Tavares.

On an Ottawa team that earned just 46 per cent of the shot share last season, Stone somehow managed to be the only Senator above 50 per cent – a truly impressive feat (though that does make his relative numbers slightly less impressive). He’s good. Very good, and much better than many around hockey give him credit for. That’s why it was a shame for a team that desperately needed an off-ice win that he didn’t sign long term this summer."

2018-19 NHL Season Preview: Ottawa Senators

 

[pled]

Ill leave this here

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Does that translate to "FIRE TORTS!!"?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Does that translate to "FIRE TORTS!!"?

Wrong person (s). Right Direction.

 

[CBJFan827]

Does that translate to "FIRE TORTS!!"?

I think it's team dinner, but I claim no extensive knowledge of Cyrillic/Russian. I can use Google translate, though (but that only goes so far)