If Bob & Bread go - then what?

[Forepar]

I get why you'd say that about Bob, but curious what else you've seen to indicate that the Bob/Panarin situations are affecting other folks. It's starting to feel to me like these 2 (very different) situations are the scapegoat for this year's team's inconsistencies/deficiencies.

It’s not just the contract issues, it’s that it is affecting Bob, or at least appears to be. And he has been the backbone of this team.

And that affects some. Foligno doesn’t have a clue (e.g. last night’s interview). I can’t pinpoint anything more specific, just a malaise. In a group (team) setting, most times the biggest issue for the group is who is in the group and who is not. I’ve watched it in small companies beyond the sports world. The ones “out” become targets, and the ones still in the boat perform like crazy.

Here, neither Bob nor Bread out of the boat completely, but not in either. Limbo.
And as much as we’d like to think “but these are professional hockey players...and coaches..., they should be able to ignore that” - they are human and they are young and their performance leaders are the ones in limbo. And their emotional leaders are dumbfounded and/or injured (Foligno, Jones & Dubi). Why do we expect that 20-somethings can easily handle what is difficult for 55 yr old senior executives to manage.

I may be all wet. But I’ve watched this movie on so many levels that I can’t get away from it. The sooner the limbo is resolved, in either direction, the sooner the malaise starts to lift. Not saying they will or won’t make the playoffs if they do/don’t get the limbo issue resolved. And maybe resolution would just help me get back to being as ardently interested as I have been.
But on current course (not record, but level of play) this year’s CBJ sure looks to miss playoffs. If that’s the case, get what you can and start the healing process now. The argument for keeping 9 & 72 for the season but having them walk next summer as worth a shot at a run for SC is losing ground with every period. And I supported that argument because I didn’t see any great return for either of them. I was wrong: misread the negative emotional effect limbo would have on me, and presumably on the team. And forgot how much hockey in general, and CBJ especially, feeds off emotion. Not faulting either player, that’s the business. But this season is starting to feel like death by a thousand slices - and players cannot be entirely immune to that. Some nights, maybe, but when adversity strikes (as it does over 82-game season), it creeps in.

 

[EspenK]

Well said Forepar.

 

[Monk]

It’s not just the contract issues, it’s that it is affecting Bob, or at least appears to be. And he has been the backbone of this team.

And that affects some. Foligno doesn’t have a clue (e.g. last night’s interview). I can’t pinpoint anything more specific, just a malaise. In a group (team) setting, most times the biggest issue for the group is who is in the group and who is not. I’ve watched it in small companies beyond the sports world. The ones “out” become targets, and the ones still in the boat perform like crazy.

Here, neither Bob nor Bread out of the boat completely, but not in either. Limbo.
And as much as we’d like to think “but these are professional hockey players...and coaches..., they should be able to ignore that” - they are human and they are young and their performance leaders are the ones in limbo. And their emotional leaders are dumbfounded and/or injured (Foligno, Jones & Dubi). Why do we expect that 20-somethings can easily handle what is difficult for 55 yr old senior executives to manage.

I may be all wet. But I’ve watched this movie on so many levels that I can’t get away from it. The sooner the limbo is resolved, in either direction, the sooner the malaise starts to lift. Not saying they will or won’t make the playoffs if they do/don’t get the limbo issue resolved. And maybe resolution would just help me get back to being as ardently interested as I have been.
But on current course (not record, but level of play) this year’s CBJ sure looks to miss playoffs. If that’s the case, get what you can and start the healing process now. The argument for keeping 9 & 72 for the season but having them walk next summer as worth a shot at a run for SC is losing ground with every period. And I supported that argument because I didn’t see any great return for either of them. I was wrong: misread the negative emotional effect limbo would have on me, and presumably on the team. And forgot how much hockey in general, and CBJ especially, feeds off emotion. Not faulting either player, that’s the business. But this season is starting to feel like death by a thousand slices - and players cannot be entirely immune to that. Some nights, maybe, but when adversity strikes (as it does over 82-game season), it creeps in.

This is a well conveyed answer to my question, thank you.

I do hope you're wrong and this is just typical, young-team inconsistencies and/or a slow start, but I understand where you're coming from for sure.

I also agree with the "lack of return" issue you identify, and it just sort of feels like a damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't situation to me. Folks will certainly complain either way.

I remain hopeful that they can get their shit together and make something out of this season. A 16 game win streak would be nice right about now.

 

[major major]

The only malaise I see is Bob. The skaters are gripping their sticks and frustrated the last couple games but that happens several times in every season.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The FO completely spit the bit with their two Russians.

The negotiating strategy of this FO has (with the exception of Dubinsky and Foligno and possibly Atkinson) been to low ball and play hard ball with everyone. It failed utterly with Johansen. They wore down Anderson (who had no leverage). It's really been a disaster with Bob. When things weren't going well with Panarin (last July), I'm going to assume that the FO didn't say "screw it" and offer him 8 years at $9.5-10 million (Sequin money). Because if they were willing to pay it, they should have put it on the table then.

The only contract situation which went smoothly with a recent player has been Jones. Jones grew up in the Nashville organization where taking a discount is de rigeur under Poile.

They end up paying market price in most cases (other than Jones, no one on this roster is at a "discount"). The FOs strong-handed negotiating tactics are probably responsible for the Bob/Panarin debacle. And a debacle it is. Losing the best players this organization has ever seen in the manner that it appears to be playing out would be cause for front office dismissals in most NHL organIzations. In Columbus, it's a pathway to long term extensions

Unless the FO can get deals done within the next month, it's time to part with the Russian duo. Losing them for nothing would be unforgivable. This is not even close to being a Stanley Cup competitive team with them and without compensation for them, this organization is risking a reprise of the Howson years. Not that McConnell and Nationwide GAF about that.

 

[major major]

The FO completely spit the bit with their two Russians.

The negotiating strategy of this FO has (with the exception of Dubinsky and Foligno and possibly Atkinson) been to low ball and play hard ball with everyone. It failed utterly with Johansen. They wore down Anderson (who had no leverage). It's really been a disaster with Bob. When things weren't going well with Panarin (last July), I'm going to assume that the FO didn't say "screw it" and offer him 8 years at $9.5-10 million (Sequin money). Because if they were willing to pay it, they should have put it on the table then.

The only contract situation which went smoothly with a recent player has been Jones. Jones grew up in the Nashville organization where taking a discount is de rigeur under Poile.

They end up paying market price in most cases (other than Jones, no one on this roster is at a "discount"). The FOs strong-handed negotiating tactics are probably responsible for the Bob/Panarin debacle. And a debacle it is. Losing the best players this organization has ever seen in the manner that it appears to be playing out would be cause for front office dismissals in most NHL organIzations. In Columbus, it's a pathway to long term extensions

Unless the FO can get deals done within the next month, it's time to part with the Russian duo. Losing them for nothing would be unforgivable. This is not even close to being a Stanley Cup competitive team with them and without compensation for them, this organization is risking a reprise of the Howson years. Not that McConnell and Nationwide GAF about that.

So you're basically starting with the assumption that the FO and the whole org are basically complete and utter morons, and not basically competent people dealing with an unfortunate situation. That's not very persuasive.

You're also totally eliding the UFA / RFA distinction. You can't argue from Anderson's situation that they were not making a big offer to Panarin. They have clearly taken a very different approach from UFAs to RFAs, as one would expect in the circumstance.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

So you're basically starting with the assumption that the FO and the whole org are basically complete and utter morons, and not basically competent people dealing with an unfortunate situation. That's not very persuasive.

You're also totally eliding the UFA / RFA distinction. You can't argue from Anderson's situation that they were not making a big offer to Panarin. They have clearly taken a very different approach from UFAs to RFAs, as one would expect in the circumstance.

My assumption is that they are not very astute contract negotiators nor are they very good at managing their key Russian personnel.

Putting the screws to every RFA is not a sound negotiating tactic. Signing Bob to a 7 or 8 year deal when he was an RFA would have been an excellent move. Signing Johansen to a 6 year deal would have been an excellent move.

 

[major major]

My assumption is that they are not very astute contract negotiators nor are they very good at managing their key Russian personnel.

Putting the screws to every RFA is not a sound negotiating tactic.

Keep apologizing for them. It's amusing.

I've argued plenty of times that they shouldn't be so harsh with every RFA. I was all about that with Anderson.

But to use that record of stinginess with RFAs to argue that they were lowballing Panarin, a UFA with weak ties to the club, is ludicrous. That's not apologizing for the FO, it's correcting you on a silly argument.

 

[BluejacketNut]

After Bob got the "we still dont believe in you" 4 year contract as a 25 year old, I'm sure Panarin asked Bob on vacation if he was planning to stick around and believe it was a likely NO. So it may be that they never even had a chance with Panarin, regardless what they offered

 

[JacketsDavid]

After Bob got the "we still dont believe in you" 4 year contract as a 25 year old, I'm sure Panarin asked Bob on vacation if he was planning to stick around and believe it was a likely NO. So it may be that they never even had a chance with Panarin, regardless what they offered

I don't blame Jackets for his last contract. He was same guy that Philly ran out of town a few years earlier.
In hindsight could it been handled differently sure - but it was time for Bob to prove what he could do and he did it. Now Bob can see what he's worth on open market. Someone likely will break the bank for him, may still be the CBJ if they fill he is right guy for next 7 years.

 

[BluejacketNut]

I don't blame Jackets for his last contract. He was same guy that Philly ran out of town a few years earlier.
In hindsight could it been handled differently sure - but it was time for Bob to prove what he could do and he did it. Now Bob can see what he's worth on open market. Someone likely will break the bank for him, may still be the CBJ if they fill he is right guy for next 7 years.

The problem seems to be talent evaluation. This was huge miss on their part. Correct me if im wrong, didnt he win the Vezina the year before his 4 year contract?

 

[JacketsDavid]

The problem seems to be talent evaluation. This was huge miss on their part. Correct me if im wrong, didnt he win the Vezina the year before his 4 year contract?

So you're saying every goalie that wins the Vezina should be paid based on that year?
That's where I disagree. He wasn't a spotless goalie at that point, he had highs and lows and that terrific year. I wouldn't pay a guy with a 7 year deal.

At same time the Jackets have signed a lot of long term deals that made no sense. So I'm just adverse to signing guys to long term deals unless you are 100% confident in them.

To be honest there are still doubts about Bob. He has proven that's he's good/great in regular season but beyond that there are questions. And now that he's not the "A" goalie playing 65 games a year he looks shaky. If he's "A1" playing 50 gmes how does that effect him. Maybe that allows him to be fresher in post season but takes away some of his regular season goodness?

 

[BluejacketNut]

So you're saying every goalie that wins the Vezina should be paid based on that year?
That's where I disagree. He wasn't a spotless goalie at that point, he had highs and lows and that terrific year. I wouldn't pay a guy with a 7 year deal.

At same time the Jackets have signed a lot of long term deals that made no sense. So I'm just adverse to signing guys to long term deals unless you are 100% confident in them.

To be honest there are still doubts about Bob. He has proven that's he's good/great in regular season but beyond that there are questions. And now that he's not the "A" goalie playing 65 games a year he looks shaky. If he's "A1" playing 50 gmes how does that effect him. Maybe that allows him to be fresher in post season but takes away some of his regular season goodness?

He went on to win another Vezina and single handidly took us to the playoffs a couple years back. The success of the team depends on their ability to evaluate talent, something which they are showing they are not very good at. Long term full price deals for Foligno, Dubisnky, stretching a bit far on Atkinson, and they missed on evaulating Bob. They missed horribly on the most important position on the team

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The problem seems to be talent evaluation. This was huge miss on their part. Correct me if im wrong, didnt he win the Vezina the year before his 4 year contract?

He did. He was a no brainer for a long term deal then. 7 or 8 years. But this FO is just determined to put the screws to RFAs. They gotta "prove it", dontchaknow.

 

[GoJackets1]

So Poile gets credit for Jones taking a discount with us? That's an interesting take.

 

[Jackets16]

He went on to win another Vezina and single handidly took us to the playoffs a couple years back. The success of the team depends on their ability to evaluate talent, something which they are showing they are not very good at. Long term full price deals for Foligno, Dubisnky, stretching a bit far on Atkinson, and they missed on evaulating Bob. They missed horribly on the most important position on the team

I guess Philadelphia has no clue on evaluating talent either. If they would have given him the longest deal they could have, and he played bad, you would be complaining as well. Bob didn't have a long track record and also was threatening to leave the NHL (IIRC), so what Columbus gave him was more than fair, IMO. It was also smart, IMO. Long enough that if he kept playing well that they didn't lose him after 1 or 2 years. Short enough that if he played poorly, they wouldn't be in big trouble having a bad goaltender on a bad contract. I'm glad they didn't give him a crazy contract last time and I am glad they aren't doing it now.

Neither of these situations are on the organization. They are on the players. The players are overvaluing themselves or simply don't want to be here. That is fine. Just don't be putting the blame on the organization.

 

[Jackets16]

For those who think we were cheap with Bobrovsky.

Top 15 Highest Paid NHL Goalies for 2015/16

 

[EDM]

Well until Bob gets used to the smaller pads .........

Anyway, there was a very interesting article in the Athletic that listed all of the possible free agents and reasonable trade targets that will be available over the next 10 months. There are enough good players available that if Jarmo went out and got at least two of them with the money we will have if Bob & Bread leave, that we should still be in decent shape, maybe even improved despite the departure of B & B. But, I have to admit, I have no faith in Jarmo really going after guys like Stone, Skinner or Duchene with realistic offers. Instead, he will probably search the bargain bins for a Riley Nash or two.

 

[major major]

Well until Bob gets used to the smaller pads .........

Anyway, there was a very interesting article in the Athletic that listed all of the possible free agents and reasonable trade targets that will be available over the next 10 months. There are enough good players available that if Jarmo went out and got at least two of them with the money we will have if Bob & Bread leave, that we should still be in decent shape, maybe even improved despite the departure of B & B. But, I have to admit, I have no faith in Jarmo really going after guys like Stone, Skinner or Duchene with realistic offers. Instead, he will probably search the bargain bins for a Riley Nash or two.

I'm very confident he'll go after Stone and at least do his homework on the others.

We'll be way below the cap and Jarmo has an aggressive track record. Unless he gets a new directive from ownership to pinch pennies, he'll swing for the fences. I'm not so confident that we'll actually get our first choices though. Two of the three best players on the market will be the ones leaving the Jackets! And then Stone, and many teams will be bidding for him.

 

[EDM]

I don't consider "build from within" to be an aggressive posture. There is no excuse to not use the money freed by the departure of B & B to make a serious effort to improve the team. And to me, that is at least 2 players, one to replace Bread and then the long sought second line left wing.

 

[MAHJ71]

FWIW... Friedman's 31 thoughts column today.

The Blue Jackets aren’t thrilled with the rumour factory surrounding Sergei Bobrovsky and Artemi Panarin. So, without trying to separate fact from fiction, the situation with Bobrovsky appears… untenable. I believed the organization had the right approach in keeping both and going for it, since they have a good team. Panarin’s got nine points in eight games, and generally goes about his business. But no one within 100 minutes of Bobrovsky has a worse save percentage, and only one who has played more has a higher goals-against average. He looks very unhappy, and what Columbus must weigh is the effect it has on the roster. He has control over the situation with a no-move clause, but it is believed he has given an indication of teams he will consider. Even if you think Long Island is in Bobrovsky’s future, isn’t there some point this season he has to ramp it up to his regular level of excellence as proof of his worth?

Let the guessing of Bob's list begin..

St. Louis is not the quickest team in a fast league. It was instructive to watch them practice last Friday, as coach Mike Yeo was pushing them to find ways to overcome that. Fast thinking, anticipating where the puck was going and, most importantly, being in the right spots to protect the front of the net whether the puck is there or not. Jake Allen takes a lot of their heat, but if you looked at many of the goals they gave up, he’s left incredibly unprotected. They brought the Maple Leafs to a standstill, then suffered a crushing meltdown in Winnipeg. The Blues are cap tight, but, in a year where they’ve got to do well, I can see them being a potentially stealth team for Bobrovsky.

 

[major major]

At this point I'd give the net to Korpisalo for couple weeks and let Bob hit the reset button. Bob always starts slow and heats up when he's busy, but I don't think you can play him into his best form when he has this kind of mindset.

Getting Bob back into form is more important to the team at this point than just trading him, IMO, assuming the return won't be much.

 

[EDM]

Well if he wants to go to Long Island, try to get Eberle back in a trade, potential UFA for potential UFA.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

Well if he wants to go to Long Island, try to get Eberle back in a trade, potential UFA for potential UFA.

If it's possible to land Wahlstrom instead in a deal for Bob, I'd drive him and Olya up to Brooklyn myself

 

[EDM]

Once you get past Bob's limited movement clause, I think he is far more tradeable than Because the team receiving Bob would probably have a good chance to sign him after this season while no one can tell what Bread wants.