If Bob & Bread go - then what?

EspenK

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Some discussion in the GDT about this due to Korpi starting and we have a Bob thread and a Bread thread but these two have become intertwined as far as the future imo.

Straight up we save 13.4 in cap plus whatever raises they would command. Conservatively they would probably get 6 million more (Bread 4 & Bob 2). So call it twenty mill to spend elsewhere.

Stone & Duchene could be had for a bit less than that, say maybe 16 mill or so. Skinner & Erik Karlsson are other possibilities.

Duchene - PLD - Stone
????? - Wennberg - Cam.

That damn LW hole continues to exist. Would have to add somone via trade or continue to rely on Foligno or hope for Duclair to make a big impact.
 

major major

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I think it's clear we are unlikely to be short of cap for a while if Bob and Bread both go. It opens up possibilities for the long run but it's unlikely that we neatly land all the top UFAs to fill that gap in the near term, or that Jarmo pulls off more grand larceny via trade on command. The most likely short-run scenario is that we lose our elite players, get extra cap, and do not add elite players to use up most of the cap space.

Also, @EspenK , your obsession with forming a perfect top 6 is out of date, I think. We could get a great LW and then he'll gel with the 3rd line, for all we know. Calgary had a hole at RW, acquires James Neal, and then puts him on the third line behind Czarnik and Lindholm, to spread the scoring. Every club (possibly literally every club) has non-top-6 quality guys in top 6 roles because they are good complements or because it helps spread the scoring.
 

CBJWerenski8

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Then a rebuild is in the midst. I wouldn't spend money on either Stone or Duchene (Stone will likely stay in Ottawa anyway) in the scenario that both walk.
 
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major major

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I'll just move this here:

Could you name ALL the players in the NHL that you consider "elite" and that you would consider an "adequate replacement" for Panarin….?

Instead of that long list, how bout now narrowing it down to guys that their current teams would EVER THINK about trading them...…?

There isn't any elite forward right now at Panarin's level that is being shopped by their team. Not one. "EVER THINK about trading" obviously makes it more expansive, but it's just us hoping for things to shake out, and it's not reasonable to expect someone on Panarin's level to be available in any short or medium timeframe. Teams go years and years without a guy like that. We should know.

Realistic potential options are guys like Stone, Duchene, and Nylander. Partial replacements.
 

major major

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Then a rebuild is in the midst. I wouldn't spend money on either Stone or Duchene (Stone will likely stay in Ottawa anyway) in the scenario that both walk.

I doubt Jarmo would embrace such a rebuild. We'd be in the market for whatever topline talent we could get, maybe even an overpay.

If we just didn't spend it, we'd basically be the Hurricanes for the indefinite future, too good to bottom out, and just praying for a lottery win. That's a good way to waste the RFA years of Jones and company.
 

CBJWerenski8

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I doubt Jarmo would embrace such a rebuild. We'd be in the market for whatever topline talent we could get, maybe even an overpay.

If we just didn't spend it, we'd basically be the Hurricanes for the indefinite future, too good to bottom out, and just praying for a lottery win. That's a good way to waste the RFA years of Jones and company.

Top end talent usually doesn't hit the market, and if it does we usually don't get a seat at the table. Unless you mean overpay via trade, in which that poses its own risks.
 

major major

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Top end talent usually doesn't hit the market, and if it does we usually don't get a seat at the table. Unless you mean overpay via trade, in which that poses its own risks.

I agree, we don't have a great chance of getting our target players. But I'm absolutely sure Jarmo would try. Of course he would make an offer for Stone. Why wouldn't he?
 
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MAHJ71

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I'm trying my hardest to not even think about it because the answers are highly unlikely to please me... :laugh:
 

CBJFan827

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I would hope, whether or not Panarin resigns, we take a shot at acquiring Mark Stone. He might not have shown the top end offensive burst that Panarin has, but he's 100% a 1st line forward who is one of the most impactful "wins added" players in the league.

Beyond that? I really don't know. We would desperately need more gamebreaking offensive talent, especially at LW. Time will tell if Abramov, Texier, or Foudy will be that in the next 2-3 years (I'm unconvinced Tex or Foudy will play center at the NHL level) or if Marchenko ever comes over. I have no reason to think Stenlund, Robinson, Thurkauf, or Davidsson have anywhere near that sort of upside, though I think all 4 can and will be solid NHLers in their upside roles (middle six center, bottom six wing x2, 2nd line winger).

Gosh, imagine if we could put the Rick Nash of 10 years ago (in honor of the 10th anniversary of legendary goal v. Phoenix) on this team! I don't think he was as good as Panarin, but boy that would be something to see.
 
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EspenK

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Then a rebuild is in the midst. I wouldn't spend money on either Stone or Duchene (Stone will likely stay in Ottawa anyway) in the scenario that both walk.


It could become a rebuild but it sure as heck could go the other way also if we could land a couple of the UFA's I mentioned or somehow snagged Nylander from Toronto although he worries me because of his ask of 8 mill now rather than a comparative of 6.5 like all of his contemporaries, except Draisaitl, who benefits from Edmonton's ineptitude in contracts.
 
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JacketsDavid

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It depends. If we have a great season (ECF or beyond) I think it would be ok. Other players would see themselves coming here to a winning team and be willing to take the chance (again I would hope if we could get far even Bread would consider staying but not this discussion).
If we trade them early (to get pieces) it will be for futures for Panarin. He will be a rental so no one will give up a piece of their team, would be picks, prospects or a salary dump. So I would guess more that we would try to win around the blue line. Hope that Jones, Werne, Murray, etc. could become elite as a group. The offense would suck out loud. And I'm not so sure many other top end forwards would be rushing to play here. Much like the past we would be chasing guys with potential or guys on tail end of careers.
I don't see us rebuilding until/unless we show we can't win with the blue line we have assembled.
 

thebus88

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The CBJ are better than people give them credit for WITH them, and the CBJ would be better than people give them credit or WITHOUT them.

No, it wont be easy to "replace" both of them, Panarin especially.

But, I really don't know what to say if you think the organization wouldn't bring in AT LEAST 1 very impactful player, to make u for the "hole" on the roster and in regards to team salary/cap.

We are WAY PAST a rebuild.


SUSTAIN THE UNSUSTAINABILITY
 
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EspenK

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Also, @EspenK , your obsession with forming a perfect top 6 is out of date, I think. We could get a great LW and then he'll gel with the 3rd line, for all we know. Calgary had a hole at RW, acquires James Neal, and then puts him on the third line behind Czarnik and Lindholm, to spread the scoring. Every club (possibly literally every club) has non-top-6 quality guys in top 6 roles because they are good complements or because it helps spread the scoring.

OK. How about this - the Jackets need to strengthen their roster of LW's and play them on any line they see fit? Foligno, Jenner & Milano don't do it for me. Foligno is too inconsistent, Jenner is, imo, a traditional 3rd line player and Milano looks to be on his way to becoming another #1 pick who doesn't make it.
 

KJ Dangler

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From the goalie standpoint not worried a bit, go with Korpi/Merzlikins with Tarasov knocking on the door , and Vieni Vehvilainen looks to be an absolute steal . We should have around 20 mil in cap room . I would look to move Wennberg , and see what type of return we can get there . Possibly upgrading the second line center .Garikov will be here next near , so our defense could look like Jones , Werenski, Nutivaara , Murray , Savard , Garikov, with Kukan . That is beyond strong, top 6 defensive core . I think Jarmo could go fishing with one of these pieces . Werenski could land an elite offensive player in return. You would still have an amazing top 6 defensive core , you have your elite player to replace Panarin , now you go fishing , target #1 is Mark Stone . That’s how I would go about the situation . Nashville did the same thing. They had an abundance of great defenseman , and realized that to be a serious contender , they needed a great offense , as well . While I wouldn’t have given up Jones for Johansen, I trust that Jarmo would get a much better return if he moved Werenski .
 
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EspenK

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Jeff Skinner or Duchene could fill the LW spot. Give Wennberg 2 good wings and I think he is much better received by the critics. Put him between Skinner (Duchene) & Stone (or Cam) and he's probably a 60 A guy. Who cares if he has 6 or 7 g's.

Either scenario (Skinner or Duchene) only takes care of 1 LW. Still stuck with Foligno on Wennberg's line.

Maybe that is where a trade comes in but cap would definitely become an issue with all 3 of those UFA's, although trading Werenski could make it doable. Trading Werenski though in my mind is not the brightest thing to do and I'd probably suffer Foligno/Jenner/Milano/Duclair as the Wennberg LW until we can come up with a better/cheaper alternative. Grow up fast Kirill Marchenko please.
 
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Theo Von

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From the goalie standpoint not worried a bit, go with Korpi/Merzlikins with Tarasov knocking on the door , and Vieni Vehvilainen looks to be an absolute steal . We should have around 20 mil in cap room . I would look to move Wennberg , and see what type of return we can get there . Possibly upgrading the second line center .Garikov will be here next near , so our defense could look like Jones , Werenski, Nutivaara , Murray , Savard , Garikov, with Kukan . That is beyond strong, top 6 defensive core . I think Jarmo could go fishing with one of these pieces . Werenski could land an elite offensive player in return. You would still have an amazing top 6 defensive core , you have your elite player to replace Panarin , now you go fishing , target #1 is Mark Stone . That’s how I would go about the situation . Nashville did the same thing. They had an abundance of great defenseman , and realized that to be a serious contender , they needed a great offense , as well . While I wouldn’t have given up Jones for Johansen, I trust that Jarmo would get a much better return if he moved Werenski .

I agreed with this entire post until I read ‘Werenski’, then I politely stopped reading. Seriously? Z is going absolutely no where.
 

KJ Dangler

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I agreed with this entire post until I read ‘Werenski’, then I politely stopped reading. Seriously? Z is going absolutely no where.
Look I hear you, I love Z, one of my favorite players. But lets play this scenario out. We have Jones , who is one of the best Defenseman in the game. A dual threat. We have Z, who is probably more of an offensive defenseman at this point, but pretty balanced. We have Nutivaara, that I believe could and is blossoming into a great defenseman. We have Murray who was a #2 pick, and very solid defensively, just needs to stay healthy. We have Savard, who is a really good player, and then we have Garikov coming over, who is expected to step into the top 6. Then compare that to what we roll out if Bread walks at the end of the season. Probably in the bottom tier of forwards in the league. Nashville was faced with this same dilemma . Great defense, very average offense (and even then, their forward group was much better than what we would ice). I've yet to see a team in recent memory, win a cup, without 2 elite offensive players on their team. We would have 0. Would it hurt to trade Werenski ? I would personally be sad, but he could absolutely return an elite offensive player in return . Then, you target a Mark Stone. I'm not saying hes elite per say, but with him, and Atkinson, Pld, and the elite player we get in return for Werenski you have 4 out of your top 6 that are legit . The way the game is structured, I just feel you would have a much better team , in the era of scoring, having an elite forward, over having 2 absolute stud defenseman, and Jones is going nowhere, you can tell hes being propped up as the next captain of the #cbj. A defensive core of Jones, Murray, Savard, Nutivaara, Garikov, and Kukan, is still one of the better defensive cores in the league.

The other thing to keep in mind, if Bread walks, you absolutely have to move Wennberg. You are going to need all the goals you can possibly get, and having Wennberg going 3 to 4 game stretches without attempting a shot, will not get it done. I know not everyone is going to agree with what I have laid out, so please , tell me your vision on how Jarmo could go about this. Keep in mind that when we consider recent cup winners, Washington (Ovie-Kuznetsov), Pittsburgh x- 3 (Malkin-Crosby) Blackhawks x-2 (Kane-Toews ). The one outlier was the Kings in 2014, but I would argue that todays game is vastly different than what the NHL was in 2014. So Lets hear serious thoughts here.
 
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KJ Dangler

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My hot take: We're better off with neither than with both.
Thats a tough sell there. Bread may top 100 points this year, and by all accounts has 0 attitude, and a great teammate. Bobs showing, just like the playoffs, the mental piece, he struggles to perform. He came in day 1 with an attitude with the press, and first day of practice was late. Just my opinion though.
 

EspenK

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The other thing to keep in mind, if Bread walks, you absolutely have to move Wennberg. You are going to need all the goals you can possibly get, and having Wennberg going 3 to 4 game stretches without attempting a shot, will not get it done. I know not everyone is going to agree with what I have laid out, so please , tell me your vision on how Jarmo could go about this. Keep in mind that when we consider recent cup winners, Washington (Ovie-Kuznetsov), Pittsburgh x- 3 (Malkin-Crosby) Blackhawks x-2 (Kane-Toews ). The one outlier was the Kings in 2014, but I would argue that todays game is vastly different than what the NHL was in 2014. So Lets hear serious thoughts here.

I am already on record as saying I'd move Z but it would have to be for someone elite or very near elite. I don't thin you have to move Wennberg if you have 2 good wings flanking him. Say for example you could put him between Skinner & Stone. I think he becomes a 60 pt guy at a minimum. A lot different than being between Foligno & Bjorkstrand. In that scenario who cares if doesn't shoot that much?
 
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blahblah

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I haven't been the biggest Duchene fan, but I'm not opposed to seeing what it would take to sign him if the opportunity presented itself. I'm not really sold on Wennberg, so I think we need some insurance.
 
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Crede777

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The reason why the Jackets targeted Panarin in the first place was that they recognized the need for an elite, gamebreaking forward. If they lose Panarin, they will need to find a similar player rather than a bunch of pretty good ones.

Maybe Jarmo can pull off another mega trade like Saad for Panarin or Johansen for Jones but barring that and barring a major shift where elite talents like Tavares and Panarin begin to jump around in free agency, I think the Jackets will remain in limbo with Dubois, Werenski, and Jones.
 
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Cyclones Rock

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The reason why the Jackets targeted Panarin in the first place was that they recognized the need for an elite, gamebreaking forward. If they lose Panarin, they will need to find a similar player rather than a bunch of pretty good ones.

Maybe Jarmo can pull off another mega trade like Saad for Panarin or Johansen for Jones but barring that and barring a major shift where elite talents like Tavares and Panarin begin to jump around in free agency, I think the Jackets will remain in limbo with Dubois, Werenski, and Jones.
I'm pretty sure that the Hawks were targeting Saad, but point well taken. Replacing Panarin with two 45 points players ain't gonna cut it.
 

Crede777

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I'm pretty sure that the Hawks were targeting Saad, but point well taken. Replacing Panarin with two 45 points players ain't gonna cut it.
I would go as far as saying replacing Panarin with two 65 point players wouldn't cut it.

The front office has realized you need that franchise caliber forward even with great defense and depth. They make everyone around them better, draw attention from the defense, and only take up one spot on the roster.

As for Bob, he has his value. I don't think he's worth $10 million, but it wouldn't be an absolute catastrophe for the first few years. That said, losing him in free agency also isn't an absolute catastrophe. That's why I think the team could take him or leave him.

If this were the NBA, I would be sure that the Jackets would barely miss the playoffs this year and then against all odds win the draft lottery. However, if this were the NBA then McDavid would have gone to Toronto and Matthews to Arizona. Outside of 2005, I'm absolutely convinced that the lottery is fully legit.
 
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EspenK

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All of this replacing Panarin talk with an elite player obtained in trade is pretty slim and nill unless the Jackets offer up a guy like Werenski. I don't see them ever trading Jones and there ain't nobody else who is even close to elite. I still think the best way compensate for Bread is to sign two of Stone, Duchene & Skinner in free agency if they are available. They are all young enough to offer 7 year deals. Would definitely make the overall offense pretty good imo.
 

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