I Think I Figured Out Marc Bergevin's Strategy...

[bsl]

Welcome to my ignore list. I'm convinced you have nothing original or interesting to contribute but your hatred for coaching and management. Any Hab fan that cannot enjoy the season we are having is not a fan.

Not fair, LG is a huge fan from what I know. He's a skeptic, what's the big deal?

 

[bsl]

You arm chair GM and Coaches that still live with your mothers are too many to mention let alone explain the do's and don'ts of hockey.

To build a really successful team you need guys that will help you during the regular season and you need guys that can push you in the playoffs.

Regular season is a total different game than the playoffs. The signings in the summer and the trades during the season were made for different reasons. Briere was for playoffs...Murray and Parros for regular season....Weise and Vanek for both seasons.
(and yes Parros and Murray did help....but you live with you mother and never been in a locker room to know how loved and appreciated theses guys are)

Say what you ALWAYS say about MB and MT.............but keep enjoying the HABS playoff run and remember the depth we have while your enjoying a good home cooked meal from your loving mother watching the Habs on TV.

You're gonna be popular here...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You talk and talk on here but were total in shock when you started a poll about who was the most valuable player for the Habs.... Carey vs PK.....and Carey won in a land slide if you remember and you couldn't understand why PK wasn't the most valuable player......

?????

Here's what I wrote:

I'd probably vote Price but Subban has been outstanding for the most part. Just frustrating how we're using him...

I thought this would be a lot closer and I think it probably deserves to be a lot closer. You think we'd be in last without Price? Well where would we be without Subban?

Here's what you responded with:

I think if we didn't have Subban,the EGG line we would be hurting also....but Price is the last line of defence and with his good and lately great play we would be lost and last.
TB for years has had great offense but no goalie and finished at the bottom....now they have a goalie and are at the top.

And I took no issue with it at all.

So sorry... wtf are you talking about?

I said I'd vote Price too. The only thing that was surprising to me was that it was such a landslide at the time. I thought Subban would have more votes...

Also, I really don't understand what point you were trying to make here.

and now you don't understand MB and MT but they keep on winning!

I've criticized MB for the moves I've disagreed with and praised him for the ones I thought he did well on. He's a new GM with a short track record. It's too early to know what kind of GM he'll be. I said I was cautiously optimistic and felt he deserved a chance. I've said this for a long time now (before the Vanek move and in this very thread back in February) so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[19VJ17]

You're gonna be popular here...

haha into the fire but coming out smelling habsume and sweet.

 

[19VJ17]

?????

Here's what I wrote:


Here's what you responded with:


And I took no issue with it at all.

So sorry... wtf are you talking about?

I said I'd vote Price too. The only thing that was surprising to me was that it was such a landslide at the time. I thought Subban would have more votes...

Also, I really don't understand what point you were trying to make here.


I've criticized MB for the moves I've disagreed with and praised him for the ones I thought he did well on. He's a new GM with a short track record. It's too early to know what kind of GM he'll be. I said I was cautiously optimistic and felt he deserved a chance. I've said this for a long time now (before the Vanek move and in this very thread back in February) so I don't know what you're talking about.

Ahhh Guy .....I bet your worried I will pull up all your old post

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ahhh Guy .....I bet your worried I will pull up all your old post

I pulled it up for you. Still not sure where you're coming from here.

Feel free to pull up whatever you like though, I'll be happy to talk to you about it.

 

[19VJ17]

I pulled it up for you. Still not sure where you're coming from here.

Feel free to pull up whatever you like though, I'll be happy to talk to you about it.

I don't want to...don't need too....everyone knows. People here that post and post don't care. The theme here, about my beloved HABS is always negative. I read 1 good and intelligent post out of 100. Everyone wants to bash the HABS even our own fans.

This is the best time of the season and our team is winning and I read more b..l s...t about MB and MT that is total nonsense....but it continues.

Players used to fear playing in MONTREAL (they never talked about it being special and great to play the habs)

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Baseball is a sport that is a statistical junkie's dream. I think hockey is much more a game of intangibles, so the numbers, while having some value, can only take you so far on their own.

There are nonstatistical factors in every team sport. Selfish baseball players with high batting averages can undermine their team. Racists can poison morale. And so forth.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Do you feel that our roster is top 5 in the NHL this year?

I think that's a tough argument to make. SJ, BOS, STL, CHI, LA are all a level ahead. Anaheim too, though I have them a notch below those 5. I think Montreal looks particularly good right now: the non-performers (Briere, Eller, Bourque) are looking good at the moment; Desharnais is looking strong; Plekanec is excelling against fundamentally poor (so far) opposition. These guys up against the Getzlafs, Toews, et al would be looking different.

Montreal's more in NY's category, which isn't bad. NYR's got great goaltending, similar (if not better) D, some interesting forwards, but not really at that top tier level.

I agree. Tier two right now.

If Galchenyuk develops some more (would've been nice to see him get more opportunity this year) then that will be another huge piece. I really feel that we've got a better roster than we've shown and that some of our younger players should be getting more opportunities than they are.

This seems to be the consensus position. That we are not top-5 even with Vanek and Weaver right now in the lineup.

So.......Our place in the standings seems to match up against the quality of our roster, which means that MT is doing a decent job. Perhaps not an Adams candidate, but neither is he a complete idiot.

The truth, which those people in a black and white world don't want to hear, is that for every bad move MT makes, he is probably making some good moves to offset them. Personally, I don't think that Therrien makes a huge difference to us either positively or negatively.

Now, back to Bergevin and the off-season moves, acquiring Parros, Murray and Briere.

My take on these moves is that they were not as terribly bad as they are made out to be, though not genius either.

Parros cost almost nothing and was worth a try, if you ask me. At one time, he could play hockey as well as fight. Not at Chris Neil level, but certainly better than some goons around the league. But he got hurt winning a fight during the first game of the season, and he hasn't been the same since. Having him around for insurance doesn't cost much, and his cap hit is under $1M. Gabriel Dumont or Michael Blunden don't really bring anything more, IMHO.

Douglas Murray is under-rated in my books. I find that having him around has reduced the punishment the team takes around the crease. And forwards have to play with their head up against him. Is he slow? Yes. So is Markov. But they are vets who still know how to use the parts of their game that help the team. Markov is still a first pairing defenceman despite being slow, and Murray is still a third-pairing defenceman despite being slow. Weaver has added depth, so sometimes Murray doesn't play now, but you can never have too much depth at D. MB would not have been doing his job if he gave his coach no option but to use both Tinordi and Beaulieu as regulars all year long.

Finally, Daniel Briere. Put me down as one of the people who was against this signing. But he has put up decent numbers wise given his ice time and linemates, particularly the second half of the season. I was advocating for Michael Ryder, but honestly in hindsight don't think he wanted to play here. As for Jagr, I am not sure the fans would have stayed in his corner. He hardly hits, is pretty slow, and is even less interested in backchecking than Briere. But he can protect the puck and play on a second PP unit. Meh. Not a season changer, IMHO.

Briere's price tag was a bit high, but it is only two years, not four or five like some offensive guys get. And the cap hit was affordable for this club. We still had the space to go get Vanek and Weaver.

Seen in the light of a tear down and rebuild, MB's moves were out of place. But seen in the light of an attempt to improve certain parts of our game while giving us the flexibility to make a bold move or two at the deadline, the moves were not that bad at all. Remember that there are 30 GMs out there trying to sign the best UFAs, not just us.

 

[TT1]

You arm chair GM and Coaches that still live with your mothers are too many to mention let alone explain the do's and don'ts of hockey.

To build a really successful team you need guys that will help you during the regular season and you need guys that can push you in the playoffs.

Regular season is a total different game than the playoffs. The signings in the summer and the trades during the season were made for different reasons. Briere was for playoffs...Murray and Parros for regular season....Weise and Vanek for both seasons.
(and yes Parros and Murray did help....but you live with you mother and never been in a locker room to know how loved and appreciated theses guys are)

Say what you ALWAYS say about MB and MT.............but keep enjoying the HABS playoff run and remember the depth we have while your enjoying a good home cooked meal from your loving mother watching the Habs on TV.

the only thing i took out of this post is that you have mommy issues

 

[Habs Icing]

I believe this was a coaching decision, not MB's. 'Cause there's no way in the world MB would ask MT to play Cube on the PP for example.

This year MT felt that we should play Bouillion on the PP, play Murray more than Subban on occassion, pair PK with both these clowns and watch his play absolutely plummet.

So let me ask you, do you work at a job? If you do and you're acting like an idiot making bonehead moves, your boss is just going to stand in sidelines and say nothing? Obviously not.

Yet in this delusional scenario you've created, MT is making these ridiculously idiotic decisions (according to YOU) and his boss, MB, not only encourages him but helps him along by going out and getting players that are useless. Yet you claim and I'll repeat what you said for emphasis:

I believe this was a coaching decision, not MB's. 'Cause there's no way in the world MB would ask MT to play Cube on the PP for example.

But who signed the Cube, Murray, etc? MT went out and signed these players? Or does he use the players that his GM gave him?

 

[Ghetto Sangria]

So let me ask you, do you work at a job? If you do and you're acting like an idiot making bonehead moves, your boss is just going to stand in sidelines and say nothing? Obviously not.

Yet in this delusional scenario you've created, MT is making these ridiculously idiotic decisions (according to YOU) and his boss, MB, not only encourages him but helps him along by going out and getting players that are useless. Yet you claim and I'll repeat what you said for emphasis:



But who signed the Cube, Murray, etc? MT went out and signed these players? Or does he use the players that his GM gave him?

How was murray a bad signing? Did the habs get pushed around this year? Did chara do what he wanted screening price this year? Did forwards have to keep their heads up along the boards this year? Murray is no world beater, but he played his role. Bouillon, however, was not a good signing... But you're missing one thing... They are on 1 year contracts! Means nothing!! Didnt block the habs this year from getting vanek... Wont block the habs next year.

Same thing for briere. 4 mil is a lot, but it's only for two years! He has't made any signings that will cripple this team moving forward while making this team better. Not bad

 

[Habs Icing]

How was murray a bad signing? Did the habs get pushed around this year? Did chara do what he wanted screening price this year? Did forwards have to keep their heads up along the boards this year? Murray is no world beater, but he played his role. Bouillon, however, was not a good signing... But you're missing one thing... They are on 1 year contracts! Means nothing!! Didnt block the habs this year from getting vanek... Wont block the habs next year.

Same thing for briere. 4 mil is a lot, but it's only for two years! He has't made any signings that will cripple this team moving forward while making this team better. Not bad

I think you picked the wrong post to quote. I'm the one arguing that THEY WERE NOT BAD SIGNINGS. Lafleurs Guy is the one who claims they were BRUTAL signings.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

what is your point??????????

My point is this place is as fickle as can be.

 

[Sorinth]

And yet we managed to weasel our way to 4th in the conference. You know there's an expression: the proof is in the pudding. Even though you and Lafleurs Guy are incapable of seeing the value of MB's moves, maybe just maybe the fact that we were 4th in the conference this year and 3rd last year should be two big hints that his moves aren't as brutal as you guys claim.

If the team was floundering, I could understand you guys coming here and criticizing MB. But the team has been good to very good since he took over.

That's not a good analogy because Bergevin didn't start from scratch. Vanek is pretty much the only core player Bergevin has added, and both LG and myself have given him a lot of credit for Vanek. You mention last seasons record, do you really think Bergevin's additions of Prust, Bouillon, Armstrong were the difference between last place and 3rd?

Bergevin's mistakes so far haven't crippled us that's why we didn't flounder, doesn't mean they weren't mistakes. But everybody makes mistakes so long as the good outweighs the bad then I can live with it. This offseason will go a long way towards determining that.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't want to...don't need too....everyone knows.

I think you missed it...

I went back to the post YOU CITED for you. What you wrote didn't make any sense. I said I would've voted for Price. So again... I'm not sure what it is you think you're proving here.

People here that post and post don't care. The theme here, about my beloved HABS is always negative. I read 1 good and intelligent post out of 100. Everyone wants to bash the HABS even our own fans.

This is the best time of the season and our team is winning and I read more b..l s...t about MB and MT that is total nonsense....but it continues.

Players used to fear playing in MONTREAL (they never talked about it being special and great to play the habs)

No it's not. You are making a strawman here. I've been pretty positive about our team actually and have said that I think we'll beat Tampa. So again, not sure what you're talking about.

As for MB, yes I've criticized him when I felt he did something wrong and praised him when he's done something right.

As for MT, he's been brutal. If you have an issue with what I've written about him - be specific. Don't sit there with BS and tell me I'm being a big meany towards him. He's a terrible coach and I've gone into detail as to why I believe this.

Bottom line: You want sunshine and rainbows... stay inside, play some Hootie and the Blowfish music and spend your days eating bowls of cherries... Otherwise, engage in conversation where some moves will be criticized and others praised. You know, like on a message board...

This seems to be the consensus position. That we are not top-5 even with Vanek and Weaver right now in the lineup.

So.......Our place in the standings seems to match up against the quality of our roster, which means that MT is doing a decent job. Perhaps not an Adams candidate, but neither is he a complete idiot.

The truth, which those people in a black and white world don't want to hear, is that for every bad move MT makes, he is probably making some good moves to offset them.

If you only look at the standings? Sure...

But when you look at the underlying numbers (and you don't have to look deeply) you'll see a team that:

- Had great numbers for most of last season
- After a good start this year switched to dump and chase
- Finished with fewer 5 on 5 goals for than against despite Vezina caliber netminding
- An overall goal differential of +11 (next team with 100 pts would be Tampa at +25. Columbus was + 15 and finished w. 93 pts)
- Had a number one PP (last year and this season after about 20 or so games) drop to 20th
- Finished in the bottom third of scoring
- 24th in shots for
- 23rd in shots against (we are not a good defensive team either)
- Saw the regression of almost every player on the roster
- Had only one line that would consistently score
- Saw the regression/stunting/benching of key young players - Eller/Galchenyuk/Beaulieu/Tinordi
- Saw unjustified favouritism
- Saw its best skater's play drop off a cliff
- The coach calling out players in the press

So yeah, a tier two team getting 100 pts makes sense. But a tier two team that's below average in pretty much every area except goaltending should be doing better than it is.

We are where we are in the standings due to Carey Price. The ONE area that MT has nothing to do with. The only other area that you could try to make an argument for would be the penalty killing but again, I would credit Price largely for that statistic as well.

Personally, I don't think that Therrien makes a huge difference to us either positively or negatively.

He absolutely does. You have only to look at last year's numbers vs this season's.

We did well in the standings this year and that's great. But we didn't play good hockey. Our goalie gave us close to a perfect season and was consistently good almost every night.

Do you think he's helped Galchenyuk, Eller, Beaulieu, Tinordi or Subban become better players this year? There's more to a coach's job than letting the goalie win games for him. With average goaltending this year we'd get absolutely smoked. Look at the way Subban's play has dropped, look at Eller... are you not concerned by this? Did these guys just suddenly forget how to play hockey?

Now, back to Bergevin and the off-season moves, acquiring Parros, Murray and Briere.

My take on these moves is that they were not as terribly bad as they are made out to be, though not genius either.

Parros cost almost nothing and was worth a try, if you ask me. At one time, he could play hockey as well as fight. Not at Chris Neil level, but certainly better than some goons around the league. But he got hurt winning a fight during the first game of the season, and he hasn't been the same since. Having him around for insurance doesn't cost much, and his cap hit is under $1M. Gabriel Dumont or Michael Blunden don't really bring anything more, IMHO.

Douglas Murray is under-rated in my books. I find that having him around has reduced the punishment the team takes around the crease. And forwards have to play with their head up against him. Is he slow? Yes. So is Markov. But they are vets who still know how to use the parts of their game that help the team. Markov is still a first pairing defenceman despite being slow, and Murray is still a third-pairing defenceman despite being slow. Weaver has added depth, so sometimes Murray doesn't play now, but you can never have too much depth at D. MB would not have been doing his job if he gave his coach no option but to use both Tinordi and Beaulieu as regulars all year long.

Finally, Daniel Briere. Put me down as one of the people who was against this signing. But he has put up decent numbers wise given his ice time and linemates, particularly the second half of the season. I was advocating for Michael Ryder, but honestly in hindsight don't think he wanted to play here. As for Jagr, I am not sure the fans would have stayed in his corner. He hardly hits, is pretty slow, and is even less interested in backchecking than Briere. But he can protect the puck and play on a second PP unit. Meh. Not a season changer, IMHO.

Briere's price tag was a bit high, but it is only two years, not four or five like some offensive guys get. And the cap hit was affordable for this club. We still had the space to go get Vanek and Weaver.

Seen in the light of a tear down and rebuild, MB's moves were out of place. But seen in the light of an attempt to improve certain parts of our game while giving us the flexibility to make a bold move or two at the deadline, the moves were not that bad at all. Remember that there are 30 GMs out there trying to sign the best UFAs, not just us.

The best thing that can be said about those moves is they were short term. They didn't improve us and some of them hurt us. It wasn't a good offseason. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it was. And we signed Briere before the free agency mania even began. Meanwhile we don't even try for Jaromir Jagr? Better (esp for us) in every way? Just didn't make any sense. And I will feel that way regardless of how Briere does in the postseason, just like I feel that Rene Bourque is a bump on a log even if he has a good postseason.

Like I said though... Vanek undoes all of the offseason crap because (again to MB's credit) he had the good sense to make them short deals.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So let me ask you, do you work at a job? If you do and you're acting like an idiot making bonehead moves, your boss is just going to stand in sidelines and say nothing? Obviously not.

So you think that people in the workplace can't have their incompetence masked or hidden by others who make up for their stupidity? Bad example man.

Carey Price has made up the difference. If we didn't have one of the best goalies in the league playing for us though we'd be out of the playoffs. Without Price we don't make the playoffs and you're sitting there calling for his head...

Yet in this delusional scenario you've created, MT is making these ridiculously idiotic decisions (according to YOU) and his boss, MB, not only encourages him but helps him along by going out and getting players that are useless. Yet you claim and I'll repeat what you said for emphasis:

Its not according to me. Look at the numbers. Not sure how you can't see it. Hell, watch the games and we were outplayed almost all year long.

And this is with a really good roster too.

But who signed the Cube, Murray, etc? MT went out and signed these players? Or does he use the players that his GM gave him?

You think MB signed Cube because he wanted too? You think MT didn't have any say in the matter? Come on dude! Wake up.

As for Murray... it was very clear from the beginning that he wasn't working out. Meanwhile we've got Beaulieu who should've started the season with us and Tinordi who we might as well have given some NHL experience to as our 6th blueliner.

How was murray a bad signing? Did the habs get pushed around this year? Did chara do what he wanted screening price this year? Did forwards have to keep their heads up along the boards this year? Murray is no world beater, but he played his role. Bouillon, however, was not a good signing... But you're missing one thing... They are on 1 year contracts! Means nothing!! Didnt block the habs this year from getting vanek... Wont block the habs next year.

Same thing for briere. 4 mil is a lot, but it's only for two years! He has't made any signings that will cripple this team moving forward while making this team better. Not bad

Douglas Murray is one of the worst blueliners in the NHL. That's how it was a bad signing.

 

[BaseballCoach]

As for Murray... it was very clear from the beginning that he wasn't working out. Meanwhile we've got Beaulieu who should've started the season with us and Tinordi who we might as well have given some NHL experience to as our 6th blueliner.

Douglas Murray is one of the worst blueliners in the NHL. That's how it was a bad signing.

The combination of Murray and Beaulieu was playing good hockey before the Olympic break, both of them, and Murray was getting lots of recognition for it.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't want to...don't need too....everyone knows. People here that post and post don't care. The theme here, about my beloved HABS is always negative. I read 1 good and intelligent post out of 100. Everyone wants to bash the HABS even our own fans.

This is the best time of the season and our team is winning and I read more b..l s...t about MB and MT that is total nonsense....but it continues.

Players used to fear playing in MONTREAL (they never talked about it being special and great to play the habs)

What in God's name are you talking about??

 

[Kriss E]

The combination of Murray and Beaulieu was playing good hockey before the Olympic break, both of them, and Murray was getting lots of recognition for it.

That was mainly thanks to Beaulieu's puck moving abilities. He should be in the line up over Bouillon. Having him and Weaver as a last pairing would be great. Another weird decision from the coach.

 

[Willis Jenks]

ITT people are realizing that Bergevin is more fit to be the GM of the Montreal Canadiens than the people of hfboards, what a shock.

 

[overlords]

The combination of Murray and Beaulieu was playing good hockey before the Olympic break, both of them, and Murray was getting lots of recognition for it.

He was getting recognition from most of the people who already found little flaw in his game to begin with. Beaulieu carried that pairing while playing his off-side. It goes to show just how good beaulieu is and how absurd it is that he isn't with the team right now. Murray only gets better when he gets even more sheltered. He's not NHL calibre any more.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The combination of Murray and Beaulieu was playing good hockey before the Olympic break, both of them, and Murray was getting lots of recognition for it.

When Nathan Beaulieu is on the ice with Douglas Murray his GA/20 mins almost doubles. And his goals for falls.

When Douglas Murray is on the ice with Nathan Beaulieu his GF/20 mins more than doubles and his GA/20 mins is about one third of what it is without him. So basically he's on the ice for double the goals for when Nate's on with him and without Beaulieu his goals against is three times worse.

Nathan Beaulieu carried that guy like a massive boulder on his back. If anything, that shows you how good Beaulieu is and just how terrible a player Douglas Murray is. The people who credited Murray did not know what they were talking about.

Beaulieu kicks the living daylights out of both Murray and Cube. And yet... Nate's the one who's in Hamilton?

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1249&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

 

[overlords]

When Nathan Beaulieu is on the ice with Douglas Murray his GA/20 mins almost doubles. And his goals for falls.

When Douglas Murray is on the ice with Nathan Beaulieu his GF/20 mins more than doubles and his GA/20 mins is about one third of what it is without him. So basically he's on the ice for double the goals for when Nate's on with him and without Beaulieu his goals against is three times worse.

Nathan Beaulieu carried that guy like a massive boulder on his back. If anything, that shows you how good Beaulieu is and just how terrible a player Douglas Murray is. The people who credited Murray did not know what they were talking about.

Beaulieu kicks the living daylights out of both Murray and Cube. And yet... Nate's the one who's in Hamilton?

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1249&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

You could have just quoted me and wrote 'this'.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You could have just quoted me and wrote 'this'.

Yeah, I guess so...

I was busy trying to find the stupid link and hadn't read your post.

Interesting to see Subban's numbers here too. I realize it's just basically plus minus stats but he really seems to have had a hard year this season. Really too bad because he started the year so well.

Anyways, I don't get how people keep trying to defend Murray when its so clear from just watching the games that he's awful. All the stats do is confirm just how awful he is. He's absolutely terrible.