I Got My RLR Draft Guide Today

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Dr.Sens(e)

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X-SHARKIE said:
I like both Redline and Mckeens. What I see from both is great.

One thing should be noted.

Mckeenshockey.com was the first to see Andrew Ladd and accept him, where Redline was still ragging on Schremp. I think Korpikoski is a great player, and I would love the Sharks to trade up to get him...But he won't go top 10.

Some times I think redline feels like they need a sleeper to hype up so people think they dont' care what others think. Last year it was Kastisyn and he sure had a greeeaat year lol. Oh no I said somthing bad about Kastisyn, Habs fans well have me banned.

Sorry, being a subscriber to both, I just don't see it that way. McKeens made a grand total of ONE editorial mention of Ladd before March, and simply referred to him as intriguing and referenced the fact his linemates were probably more to do with it. In March, they finally called him the real deal - which was only their second mention of him.

I subscribe to both, so I certainly see myself as objective - both are good services. But to imply McKeens "was the first to see Ladd" is simply off base.

Question - which RLR did you first see a postive mention of Ladd?
 

montreal

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steblick said:
Wrong. A scout should retain objectivity. Getting too giddy about a player or angry at a player in Redline fashion makes it seem like they take it personally. For a coach that's OK. But a good scout reports at arm's length. It's not up to a scout to get upset, light a fire under a player's butt etc. as it can interfere with objective analysis. Likewise with the hyper-fanboy approach Redline sometimes takes to its fave players.
Of course scouts SHOULD take risks and say what they believe without reservation but not let emotions get in the way of good judgment.

And I'm not sure why you wrote your middle paragraph above. No one's crying here-certainly not me. I'm just stating what I find questionable about Redline. My comments didn't warrant that kind of response.
Actually, and ironically, that paragraph reminded me of Redline's style...


I just look at it as Redline is in business to sell their reports, and one way to do so is by making a name for yourself by calling players out, or hyping lesser knows. It's a business and they have to sell their reports. I hope ISS doesn't go down this trail, as I think it's not a way to conduct yourself in the business world, but that's just me being ethical since I dont' have to sell anything, just read em.
 

X-SHARKIE

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Dr.Sens(e) said:
Sorry, being a subscriber to both, I just don't see it that way. McKeens made a grand total of ONE editorial mention of Ladd before March, and simply referred to him as intriguing and referenced the fact his linemates were probably more to do with it. In March, they finally called him the real deal - which was only their second mention of him.

I subscribe to both, so I certainly see myself as objective - both are good services. But to imply McKeens "was the first to see Ladd" is simply off base.

Question - which RLR did you first see a postive mention of Ladd?

I read the articles at www.usatoday.com and I dont remember one mention of Ladd....MY bad? So thats why I thought Mckeens was the first to call it out.

My mistake, you're right.
 

montreal

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Stock Rocks said:
The problem is- too many fans get their little panties in a bunch when Red Line goes off on their favorite wittle players. Oh, boo hoo! Cry me a river.

At least Red Line takes a stand...McKeen's and ISS tend to spend more time writing positive, generic reports that don't really hammer the underachievers.


The problem I have is that I don't understand why the need to attack a young player. When a kid is 17-18, why try and take shots at them, what is there to gain. Simply list what they do good and what they do bad. Why try and ruin their confidence, unless it's just to sell reports.
 

PecaFan

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Any prospect buying Redline to see what it says about him is just *asking* for his confidence to be shot.

There's already enough people taking shots at you (fans, coaches, press, opposing players), going out of your way to find more is just nuts.
 

montreal

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PecaFan said:
Any prospect buying Redline to see what it says about him is just *asking* for his confidence to be shot.

There's already enough people taking shots at you (fans, coaches, press, opposing players), going out of your way to find more is just nuts.



They don't need to buy it, to hear what it says. Information is passed along easily and with the internet, friends/family pick up on this. To me it's just done to sell papers, and I'm sure some people like to read those kinds of reports. I don't hence not buying Redline.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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montreal said:
The problem I have is that I don't understand why the need to attack a young player. When a kid is 17-18, why try and take shots at them, what is there to gain. Simply list what they do good and what they do bad. Why try and ruin their confidence, unless it's just to sell reports.

While I do agree with you in that I don't always enjoy when they go overboard, I do not think this is something highly damaging to the young players.

Widespread reports in casual Newspapers with hundreds of thousands readership are way more of a pressure problem. If a kid can't take a shot from some small publication like Ragline, they're probably lacking in the fortitude department needed to be a winner in high pressure game situations. This isn't something widespread that your friends will talk about. We're talking about a publication with a ridiculously small readership, and which is notoriously and hilariously wrong at times anyway.

I think Ragline tries to mix entertainment with scouting. It's not a match made in heaven but I guess that's their choice.

I do think it is only normal to point out who you are high on, who you don't like. If the prospects don't want that to happen, they are in the wrong business. This is something they have to be accustomed to fairly quickly.

This is also one of the (many) reasons I constantly push for a 20 years old eligibility age instead of 18. I think it would be better for them mentally. Since the NHL is a dog-eat-dog environment, these guys ARE views as means to an end. This is a big dollar business.

The difference between drafting a Rick Nash and a Pavel Brendl is so significant for the franchises and scouts that they have to be very cold and rational about it.

Ragline got the "cold" part alright. The rational... not sure.

But back to my point: It's not really Ragline's fault, IMO. The NHL should look into raising the age of eligibility to at least 19, preferably 20 years old. They'd win a great deal by doing that and the whole chain of development for these guys would be healthier from a physical, mental and emotional standpoint.

Hockey will never be a nice business. It's a very tough environment and that's way before you even hit the NHL.
 

Hiishawk

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Just a comment regarding negativity from Redline vs. generic, relatively uncritical reports from McKeen's and THN.

Redline lists over 200 players with comments attached (over 100 in detail) plus their various "worst" lists. Since they go lower than the other publications it is natural that they are going to get negative (for example, a guy others rate in the top 60 which you have at about #150 is NOT going to get a glowing report).
Still, it often seems to me to be personal needling rather than objective analysis in many cases.

McKeen's does 100 and THN 60, so the guys that they think are scum are simply not going to get any write-up at all.

THN though was getting gradually more and more negative until last year. Some of their past critical comments have become legendary in the draftnik world.
 

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maybe Red Line put a guy or two in their top 10-15 for entertainment but I don't buy it. Just because they are hot on 2-3 uys means it's a simple show off.

To me Red Line is like the 31st NHL team & we got a chance to see what this NHL teams got in their rankings + some coverage of each prospect.

I think Red Line like any other draft guide are very easy to critic but if we had a chance to see what the real 30 NHL teams got in their ranking we would be so surprise that we wouldn't critic them anymore.

Just speculation , let's suppose 1 NHL team got Dave Bolland #6 on their list , we would say WOW !!! that draft team is way over board.

Sometimes people on HF must feel like every NHL team got same 12-14 prospects on their TOP 10 & only a few spots are the margin between the team.

If we got a chance to look at any top 100 of every NHL , a player A could be #12 on some & #42 on others. That's what draft scouting is or that's the way I see it.
 

RANGERDIEHARD

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montreal said:
I just look at it as Redline is in business to sell their reports, and one way to do so is by making a name for yourself by calling players out, or hyping lesser knows. It's a business and they have to sell their reports. I hope ISS doesn't go down this trail, as I think it's not a way to conduct yourself in the business world, but that's just me being ethical since I dont' have to sell anything, just read em.

What would that accomplish? People want to read reports that are as accurate and as similiar to what the pro scouts think, that's what will sell, not hyping a prospect just for the sake of being different. Keep in mind that every draft publication is in business to make money and they know that the fans want something close to what the pro scouts think. I enjoy all the publications - having Radulov at 4 or Korpikoski at 10 is not absurd - it's their opinion.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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steblick said:
Just a comment regarding negativity from Redline vs. generic, relatively uncritical reports from McKeen's and THN.

Redline lists over 200 players with comments attached (over 100 in detail) plus their various "worst" lists. Since they go lower than the other publications it is natural that they are going to get negative (for example, a guy others rate in the top 60 which you have at about #150 is NOT going to get a glowing report).
Still, it often seems to me to be personal needling rather than objective analysis in many cases.

McKeen's does 100 and THN 60, so the guys that they think are scum are simply not going to get any write-up at all.

THN though was getting gradually more and more negative until last year. Some of their past critical comments have become legendary in the draftnik world.

That is a fair point and one that should be kept in mind.

However, they do get rather "creative" when criticizing guys that seem rated fairly high. Where did they have Glazachev in their final rankings last year?
 

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Russian Fan said:
maybe Red Line put a guy or two in their top 10-15 for entertainment but I don't buy it. Just because they are hot on 2-3 uys means it's a simple show off.

To me Red Line is like the 31st NHL team & we got a chance to see what this NHL teams got in their rankings + some coverage of each prospect.

I think Red Line like any other draft guide are very easy to critic but if we had a chance to see what the real 30 NHL teams got in their ranking we would be so surprise that we wouldn't critic them anymore.

Just speculation , let's suppose 1 NHL team got Dave Bolland #6 on their list , we would say WOW !!! that draft team is way over board.

Sometimes people on HF must feel like every NHL team got same 12-14 prospects on their TOP 10 & only a few spots are the margin between the team.

If we got a chance to look at any top 100 of every NHL , a player A could be #12 on some & #42 on others. That's what draft scouting is or that's the way I see it.

You are right about individual NHL rankings. But I don't think too many people here are criticizing the actual rankings of Redline. It's the hyper-support for some players and hyper-slagging of others that worries many. It's fine to favour a player or to question his upside but Redline's style often reminds me of teenage girls fawning over pop stars or badmouthing a rival's clothing.

Still, I admit that I read and enjoy it
 

MaV

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steblick said:
Just a comment regarding negativity from Redline vs. generic, relatively uncritical reports from McKeen's and THN.

Redline lists over 200 players with comments attached (over 100 in detail) plus their various "worst" lists. Since they go lower than the other publications it is natural that they are going to get negative

McKeen's does 100 and THN 60, so the guys that they think are scum are simply not going to get any write-up at all.

You have a good point for sure, but I'd just want to say that there are more than the Top-100 on McKeen's, the individual league and country lists have 405 players ranked. Obviously not all of them are profiled in any way, but the number is much bigger than 100.
 
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stardog

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Stock Rocks said:
Disagree.

Scouts are in a business of emotions. If they see players who lack passion, drive and character- essentially wasting their tremendous physical gifts, then why not get fired up over it?

The problem is- too many fans get their little panties in a bunch when Red Line goes off on their favorite wittle players. Oh, boo hoo! Cry me a river.

At least Red Line takes a stand...McKeen's and ISS tend to spend more time writing positive, generic reports that don't really hammer the underachievers.

Disagree.

While it is a free country, with free speech and well within thier rights to publish whatever opinion they find neccesary, RLR takes it way to the extreme. I don't think scouting (especially when it is done for the purpose of a publication) should be emotional. It should be cerebral.

To suggest that a professional service should use emotion (and i dont think that is what it is) when determining a players value, skillset and potential is off. There is no place for emotion in a professional scouting service that has no affiliation with a team.

RLR has no stake in a given player so it shouldn't bother them in the least if a player is uninspiring.Why should they care if a player is wasting thier gifts? Why should they get emotional about it as if they had a stake in the players future? Why get emotional about it at all in fact? Why get personal to the point of being emotional? That isn't thier job as a scouting service.

If they have a problem with a players desire then fine. Say so.
Don't waste 8 paragraphs of a 10 paragraph story ripping into a 17 year old kid with an obviously biased opinion?

Just scout the players weaknesses and strengths. There is no need for petty childish thoughts to be thrown around the way RLR does.

They also get juvinile in thier criticisms of certain players, to the point where they come across as extremely unprofessional.

Thier self congratulatory phrases also get annoying.
They have a good scouting service mind you, but an immature and somewhat unprofessional one.

Taking a stand is one thing (even though that isnt thier job...thiers is to scout and report the facts as they see them). Showing pettiness and childlike behavior is another. I dont see it as taking a stand. I see it as a personal vendetta at times.

And for the record, I could care less about his current whipping boy (Schremp). But the way he has gone off on him, coupled with his self loving articles at times keeps me from respecting thier work and opinions more than I would otherwise.

A scout, or scouting service should remain objective. When you bring emotion into the equation, objectivity is difficult to retain.
I would much rather take the word of a good scout who is objective than the equally talented scout who is emotional. Emotion is not a redeeming quality in a scout simply because emotion could cloud an objective and un biased judgement.
And that is what scouting is. Judgement.
You will get a much more accurate, objective opinion if you go by what your brain tells you rather than what your heart tells you when it comes to talent evaluation.

I am not sure why you would think it is a good quality for a scout to take a players evaluation to heart when it should be about objectivity.

That said, I DO like RLR and think Woodleif and co have alot of good insight. It is just hard to take them seriously when there is a perception of going overboard with a bias.
It makes it look like thier evaluation may not be entirely accurate. To see the way they attack someone personally, makes you wonder if it is accurate. When I see a bias remark (especially to the point and degree that they go to) I am wondering how accurate the scouting is simply because there is an obvious personal dislike for the subject.
It DEFINATLEY appears to cloud thier report when they go off on a highly skilled kid and hardly mention his positives, instead choosing to focus almost solely on the negatives.
 
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Vlad The Impaler

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stardog said:
While it is a free country, with free speech and well within thier rights to publish whatever opinion they find neccesary, RLR takes it way to the extreme. I don't think scouting (especially when it is done for the purpose of a publication) should be emotional. It should be cerebral.

After a decade of being in all sorts of pools and drafts, I can definitly see a great portion of the mistakes I have made were definitly due to being too emotional.

Doesn't mean you don't have to listen to intuition once in a while but as much as possible, you should leave emotions behind. This helps you separate what you think from what you want.

A large number of people are incapable of that, and this is why for instance you end with certain team fans for example all pimping their team's goalie prospect as "the next big NHL starter" in threads that I read for comic relief with delight.

Not being too emotional allows you to look at the bigger picture, put things properly into their context. And context is probably the most important and under-appreciated aspect of scouting (or any form of evaluation you will ever do for that matter).
 

stardog

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Vlad The Impaler said:
After a decade of being in all sorts of pools and drafts, I can definitly see a great portion of the mistakes I have made were definitly due to being too emotional.

Doesn't mean you don't have to listen to intuition once in a while but as much as possible, you should leave emotions behind. This helps you separate what you think from what you want.
It also keeps you from choosing what you KNOW is best rather than choosing what you DESIRE to do even if you know it is the wrong decision. I too, have made mistakes in choosing based on emotion rather than choosing the correct and best thing for me because emotion clouded my thought process.
You get a much more accurate answer when you are able to use cognition rather than feeling.
A lot of the time emotion makes you choose the wrong decision over the choice that your brain clearly knows is the correct path.
Listening to your feelings isnt always what is best for you, yet emotion is usually stronger than reason.

Vlad The Impaler said:
A large number of people are incapable of that, and this is why for instance you end with certain team fans for example all pimping their team's goalie prospect as "the next big NHL starter" in threads that I read for comic relief with delight.

Not being too emotional allows you to look at the bigger picture, put things properly into their context. And context is probably the most important and under-appreciated aspect of scouting (or any form of evaluation you will ever do for that matter).
Exactly. Very good post once again Vladdy...
 

Jim Bob

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I bought both the RLR and ISS Draft Guides this year.

And here is the way I break them down:

Customer Service: I have to hand this to RLR simply because ISS had all sorts of problems getting their guide out via the on-line method. And the version I got 3 days late was in a .txt file that completely lost all the formatting for the document.

RLR has a top 300
ISS has a top 200

I liked the fact that RLR gave the good points and the bad points to the prospects. ISS seemed to be too CSBish to me by only pointing out the good points in a player.

ISS said Valabik's skating was a strong point for pete's sake.

ISS had 4 mock drafts
RLR had 2 mock drafts

Both had an awards section. But, RLR's was more entertaining.

Both did a similiar job going over what each team needs.

Both had similiar preview coverage for the 2005 draft. RLR had a top 70 and ISS had a top 25, but ISS actually had mini-bios on each guy and RLR just touched on a few players.

And here is what was in this year's RLR Draft Guide:

Pages 1 & 2 - RLR's top 100 with one line comments

Pages 3 & 4 - General comments, who didn't opt in, a list of players that will go higher and lower than their RLR rankings would suggest, RLR's mid-round sleepers, their super sleeper (which I'm going to put a Sabres spin on because of a connection there when I put out my draft article(s)), and a tid bit about the players that re-entered and became UFAs by not being signed by 6/1.

Pages 5-17 - Prospect write ups, projections, and style comparison for the top 107.

Pages 18-19 - Overage Euro write ups for their top 24 prospects.

Pages 20-21 - One paragraph on what each team needs to do in the offseason.

Pages 22-23 - Two different mock drafts from 2 RLR scouts

Pages 24-45 - RLR's awards (Most underrated, Best pure skater, worst natural goal scorer, and the Wixard of Oz Trifecta (those who lack heart, brains, and courage) - This part was freaking hilarious in spots. Especially the way they crack on Chris Bourque.

Page 26 - RLR's rankings for 111-175 with one liners.

Page 27 - RLR's 176-241 w/o one liners. Top 3 rounds of the WHL bantam draft.

Page 28 - Memorial Cup and Royal Bank Cup (Jr A) reports on some of the top prospect showings.

Page 29 - Write up and top 70 for the 2005 NHL Draft.

Pages 30-31 - One page player write ups. This year it was Cory Schneider and AJ Thelen.

Page 32 - RLR's 242-298 w/o one liners.
 

Stock Rocks

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steblick said:
Wrong. A scout should retain objectivity. Getting too giddy about a player or angry at a player in Redline fashion makes it seem like they take it personally. For a coach that's OK. But a good scout reports at arm's length. It's not up to a scout to get upset, light a fire under a player's butt etc. as it can interfere with objective analysis. Likewise with the hyper-fanboy approach Redline sometimes takes to its fave players.
Of course scouts SHOULD take risks and say what they believe without reservation but not let emotions get in the way of good judgment.

And I'm not sure why you wrote your middle paragraph above. No one's crying here-certainly not me. I'm just stating what I find questionable about Redline. My comments didn't warrant that kind of response.
Actually, and ironically, that paragraph reminded me of Redline's style...


No, not wrong.

You have your feelings, but don't talk down to me like I don't know what is going on either. I have a right to my opinion, and I don't appreciate you telling me I am wrong. A scout does NOT have to maintain ANY sense of objectivity and is answerable to his GM's desires. If you don't believe that, then fine. But don't tell me that I am wrong, because as far as I'm concerned- just because you may be some traveling secretary, or whatever you do for Canada hockey, it doesn't make you the end-all, be-all of hockey.

As for the crying comment- it was directed at the numerous posters on this forum who rip Red Line on regular basis because RLR doesn't sing the praises of their favorites like Rob Schremp and so on. It was an "if the shoe fits wear it" comment.

But back to my original point- I don't like the way you addressed me in your response, so if you want to be ignorant about it, just keep it up. Nobody like a know-it-all who hides behind anonymity (yourself and your inside info.), but acts likebecause of his position, he has all the answers. I have spoken to one Bruins scout (Tom Songin) who told me that based on what MOC and Scott Bradley want, the B's scouts WILL exert some bias towards certain prospects who have known issues in various areas.

That's a fact.
 

ttnorm

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Jim Bob said:
Pages 30-31 - One page player write ups. This year it was Cory Schneider and AJ Thelen.
I am not a RLR subscriber but I am a bit surprised at the choice of Thelen for the one page piece. I read Woodlief's May 5 draft review at USHockeynews.com (a pay site). Basically he had good things to say about both guys, he did mention that other than Barker, the defensemen inn the draft
None of them are capable of being a No. 1 defenseman at the NHL level.
However, elsewhere he calls Thelen a solid choice. I guess I would have expected to see a guy who he thinks will exceed expectations for this piece.

I am curious how he views guys from tier 2 or USHS. Obviously Schneider established himself internationally and is an exception, but what about guys like Wheeler or Zajac? Is RLR predisposed to overrate or underrate these guys?
 

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Stock Rocks said:
No, not wrong.

You have your feelings, but don't talk down to me like I don't know what is going on either. I have a right to my opinion, and I don't appreciate you telling me I am wrong. .

But back to my original point- I don't like the way you addressed me in your response, so if you want to be ignorant about it, just keep it up. .

Funny, you originally wrote to me with a whole paragraph full of "boo-hoo, cry me a river, widdle prospects etc." and then you get your pants all twisted about me 'talking down to you'.

Funny also that you should be defending Redline's critical approach but when I criticize your position it seems to have hurt you to the point of resorting to calling me names- "nobody likes a know-it-all" "don't talk down to me" (and similar remarks). A little touchy for someone who initially responded with extreme sarcasm don't you think? Can't imagine how you'd react if you were on the end of one of Redlne's missives.

Glass houses and all that.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into a shouting match. Just relax and hold back the sarcasm. Then people won't respond strongly. And for a further extension of what I think you can read Star---'s post just before mine.
 

Stock Rocks

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steblick said:
Funny, you originally wrote to me with a whole paragraph full of "boo-hoo, cry me a river, widdle prospects etc." and then you get your pants all twisted about me 'talking down to you'.

Funny also that you should be defending Redline's critical approach but when I criticize your position it seems to have hurt you to the point of resorting to calling me names- "nobody likes a know-it-all" "don't talk down to me" (and similar remarks). A little touchy for someone who initially responded with extreme sarcasm don't you think? Can't imagine how you'd react if you were on the end of one of Redlne's missives.

Glass houses and all that.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into a shouting match. Just relax and hold back the sarcasm. Then people won't respond strongly. And for a further extension of what I think you can read Star---'s post just before mine.

Boy, some guys sure like to talk tough behind a keyboard...

Anytime you want to come out from behind that anonymous handle of yours and qualify the information you so freely throw around as gospel, then feel free to do so. Until then, you are just coming off like another of the many self-important knobs who inhabit this place.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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stardog said:
BTW, it was asked earlier in the thread and not answered.
What did RLR say about Chris Borque?

They said with all the diving and stickwork he should enjoy a good career...as a soccer player. Or something like that.
 

Epsilon

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Dr.Sens(e) said:
They said with all the diving and stickwork he should enjoy a good career...as a soccer player. Or something like that.

I always laugh at garbage like this. Some hockey fans/people have such a case of penis envy when it comes to soccer it's not even funny.
 
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